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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 20:48:14
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I don't have the opportunity yet to reply to Markustay's thoughtful commentary above but I can address Wooly.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So what're the parameters of "increasing power over the world"? I can't imagine it's all that huge in scope -- it seems rather unlikely to me that there is a codified, in-game way to become more powerful than the gods.
To again run with my car analogy... I might perceive myself as becoming one with my car, and thus have a better sense of how to increase its performance. This might lead to dramatic increases in gas mileage or superior handling or both. Still doesn't mean I can make my car fly, or even do all that well racing against a Top Fuel dragster.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but what I'm understanding from what you're saying is that you're not entirely familiar with the Epic Destiny concept from 4e.
Just for the sake of clarification, when reaching the epic levels in 4e, a character selects an "Epic Destiny" The Epic Destiny is sort of a flavor that can be added to a character (like a prestige class) and contains an epilogue. By epilogue I mean epic destinies say "After you finish your final quest you go out achieve your destiny"
In the context of the Immanence, the character gets a few energy themed abilities. The flavor text says he has increasing power over the world (much in the same way an 'archmage' prestige class in 3e has flavor text saying they are the highest practitioners of the arcane arts). The epilogue for the Immanence, to paraphrase, goes something along the lines of "after you finish your final quest your percieve the truth of the universe, that there is only one energy field and you are it. You put your affairs in order and disappear leapfrogging primordials and gods because after all, they're all energy.You become a fixture of the cosmos. You are everywhere. You are an Immanence".
You don't continue play with that character. That is what happens after that character finishes his last quest at the end of a campaign.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 21:38:20
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To me, that sounds like passing on to some higher plane of existence -- not becoming more powerful, but simply becoming something else... Much like an archon is something beyond mortal, but individual mortals may be more or less powerful than an archon.
I don't see anything in there saying you become more powerful, just that you become an energy being that's past mortals and deities. It's like being a Force ghost, as opposed to a Jedi. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 22:00:26
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True, Pikachu chose not to evolve, and he was still able to kick some major butt.
In other words, just because he chooses not to 'move on' to a higher form, that didn't stop him from becoming more powerful then creatures in that form (or other more-powerful creature-types).
Which is kinda what Wooly was saying with the Archon... I was just trying to score some brownie-points for mentioning another WotC IP.
Besides, who wouldn't want a Pikachu for a familiar? Sure its annoying, but it stores easily and holds its own (quite well) in a fight.
What happens to your familiar when you Immanate (become an Immanence)? For that matter, what happens to a familiar when any mortal ascends? (and YES, I know thats more for the "ask a stupid question' thread, but I had to bring this back around somehow - throw me a bone). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Apr 2012 22:01:16 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 22:27:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To me, that sounds like passing on to some higher plane of existence -- not becoming more powerful, but simply becoming something else... Much like an archon is something beyond mortal, but individual mortals may be more or less powerful than an archon.
I don't see anything in there saying you become more powerful, just that you become an energy being that's past mortals and deities. It's like being a Force ghost, as opposed to a Jedi.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To me, that sounds like passing on to some higher plane of existence -- not becoming more powerful, but simply becoming something else... Much like an archon is something beyond mortal, but individual mortals may be more or less powerful than an archon.
I don't see anything in there saying you become more powerful, just that you become an energy being that's past mortals and deities. It's like being a Force ghost, as opposed to a Jedi.
The ED directly states that the Immanence 'leapfrogs' passed deities and primordials. To put it another way If mortals are raindrops, and deities are puddles, the Immanence is the ocean which contains within which all drops and puddles are contained. The Immanence literally is everything in that cosmos (and possibly beyond depending on your reading). To put it another way, its a self aware campaign setting.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 00:02:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To me, that sounds like passing on to some higher plane of existence -- not becoming more powerful, but simply becoming something else... Much like an archon is something beyond mortal, but individual mortals may be more or less powerful than an archon.
I don't see anything in there saying you become more powerful, just that you become an energy being that's past mortals and deities. It's like being a Force ghost, as opposed to a Jedi.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To me, that sounds like passing on to some higher plane of existence -- not becoming more powerful, but simply becoming something else... Much like an archon is something beyond mortal, but individual mortals may be more or less powerful than an archon.
I don't see anything in there saying you become more powerful, just that you become an energy being that's past mortals and deities. It's like being a Force ghost, as opposed to a Jedi.
The ED directly states that the Immanence 'leapfrogs' passed deities and primordials. To put it another way If mortals are raindrops, and deities are puddles, the Immanence is the ocean which contains within which all drops and puddles are contained. The Immanence literally is everything in that cosmos (and possibly beyond depending on your reading). To put it another way, its a self aware campaign setting.
I'm not seeing it. Leapfrogging deities and everything could be passing to a higher plane of existence, and have nothing to do with power level/ability. Unless it explicitly says this epic whatever dramatically increases the power level of the PC, then you're reading into it. |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 00:09:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not seeing it. Leapfrogging deities and everything could be passing to a higher plane of existence, and have nothing to do with power level/ability. Unless it explicitly says this epic whatever dramatically increases the power level of the PC, then you're reading into it.
I will concede the point that it doesn't say the character's power increases beyond a deity. However the description does note that as you increasingly have power over the world around you. It follows that perfect understanding would make the character all-powerful. The description reveals that deities and primordials consist of a peace of the one energy which the character becomes the totality of. It is an uphill battle to say that your finger (a part of you) is mightier than you as a whole.
Edit:
To put it another way, he's not on a higher plane. He's not more powerful than any individual god, he IS ALL the gods. All of them. Every Primordial, every mortal,every blade of grass,every spell, the Abyss, etc. The Immanence is all of those things simultaneously. The Immanence is omnipresent. |
Edited by - Veritas on 19 Apr 2012 00:20:29 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 01:04:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Third - what if this 'Immanence' thing is how Over-powers are created? Ao, the LoP, and maybe Io and Krynn's Highgod, Eternity (Marvel), etc.. perhaps they were all mortals who did the 'Immanence' thing?
That's what I was getting at earlier. That the Immanence was kind of a stillborn creator god. Perhaps, somewhere along the path of super-apotheosis, the Immanence's bid for creator- godship was stalled, and the result was what we see as the position and power level of the Immanence now.
quote:
At that level of power, we are no longer even talking about 'spells' or 'abilities' - they have total control of reality within their Spheres/Domains. At that point, what is the difference between reality and dream? Could Realmspace be Ao's dream? Could Sigil be the LoP's?
We simply don't know enough about the Lady of Pain, so I wouldn't be so quick to drop her into the same category.
If nothing else -- and for ease of power-level comparison -- I would say that in a rough ranking of powers, the Immanence would occupy a place somewhere between that of Ao, at the top, and the Lady of Pain beneath.
quote:
Anyone familiar with Marvel Comics could liken this to The Beyonder - he was 'born' (became an Immanence?), and eventually became a universe unto himself (a plane in D&D jargon). At the point you become this Immanence-thing, you not only become aware of everything, and the underlying super-structure of the multiverse, but you immediately begin to form your own bubble within it. You become the sentience of your own Domain (which could be as small as Godly Domain, or as vast as a Plane or even a Cosmos). Perhaps this is truly how demi-planes are 'born'.
Perhaps an Immanence is a planeshifter [from 3e's Manual of the Planes] that has merged with a fading divine spark at the time he/she has given birth to the planar seed, and ascended to such an apotheosis-level of influence. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 01:37:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
The second is in the 3E Faiths and Pantheons which explicitly describes overdeities as entities with Divine Ranks of 21+. Taken together, it creates a strong inference that Ao is divine.
Which are, as was pointed out earlier, open to interpretation because we cannot fully understand the nature of the divine. Recall:
"These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers."
An overgod is beyond mortal understanding, and where it explicitly notes that ranks 1-20 have followers, 21+ suddenly has no more care for them, but nothing about why that's the case. With the gods, we have perhaps some limited perception of their nature and purpose. For an overdeity, we have no understanding at all. And remember that gods are not simply like bigger chunks of the pie than mortals are. They are explicitly different, greater, through their possession of a divine spark and divine ranking (if we're using the 3E system). They aren't mortal. If an overgod is a god to the gods as gods are gods to mortals, then an overgod by definition would not be simply a god that's been scaled up with more power. It would be something more.
quote:
All the deities, planes, heroes, trees, rocks, etc. are a part of him and he can alter it as he sees fit.
Except for the problem that there is no need, want or desire to do so, of course.
quote:
Fourth, great summary about CHIM. Despite Vivec's CHIM, he still arranged for the Nerevarine to defeat Dagoth Ur. He played a party, even though there was no need to as it was all an illusion.
Did Vivec arrange for it? Or was he simply acting out his role in a narrative that he was very aware of? Did he say that the player character is the Nerevarine, or did he simply proclaim that the PC was the Nerevarine? They're two different things, tying back to the question throughout the game of whether you're actually the Nerevarine, Nerevar reincarnated, or just some patsy Azura selected to get back at the Tribunal and solve the Sixth House problem. The ambiguity exists right up to the final confrontation with Dagoth Ur, when you have multiple choices depending on what you choose to believe.
And, too, Vivec is a mantler of Mephala, not just a CHIMer. Webs within webs, plots, lies, poetry, secrets, revenge and betrayal are within his nature, no more divorced from Vivec than Vivec is from reality as a whole.
But this is starting to get away from the topic, so I'll stop there.
The note on Force ghosts is interesting, though. One book by John Ryder Williams has a few chapters from Obi-Wan's perspective as a Force ghost. It mentions outright that the laws of the universe and of physics are his to play with as he chooses (though a strong dark side presence is draining to a Force ghost, and some techniques - like a Thought Bomb - can hurt or trap them). |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 02:40:51
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And this is what happens when you try to take 4E D&D lore (especially since it's not intended for FR) and shove it into FR. You get a contradiction.
I understand what the OP is trying to ascertain, but I've noticed the replies have been pretty much "Ao trumps whatever ruleset is haphazardly shoved in."
My two cents is, it's your Realms game. Let Ao be one these Immanences or whatever, despite it meaning he's delegated to a mere 30th-level character. If the idea is this Epic Destiny is conceivably granting a PC Overgod status, well, Ao does have a master. Just like mortals trying to acquire godhood in the Realms need Ao's permission, I am sure anyone trying to be a new Ao requires his master's permission. |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 03:43:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
Which are, as was pointed out earlier, open to interpretation because we cannot fully understand the nature of the divine. Recall:
"These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers."
An overgod is beyond mortal understanding, and where it explicitly notes that ranks 1-20 have followers, 21+ suddenly has no more care for them, but nothing about why that's the case. With the gods, we have perhaps some limited perception of their nature and purpose. For an overdeity, we have no understanding at all. And remember that gods are not simply like bigger chunks of the pie than mortals are. They are explicitly different, greater, through their possession of a divine spark and divine ranking (if we're using the 3E system). They aren't mortal. If an overgod is a god to the gods as gods are gods to mortals, then an overgod by definition would not be simply a god that's been scaled up with more power. It would be something more.
I agree that its open to interpretation. However as far as 3E is concerned, a DR > 20 is still a god. The implication is that mortals can understand demigods, (1-5), 6-10 (lesser), 11-15 (intermediate) and 16-20 (greater) to a degree but 21+ (over) is still a divine status, just one which mortals are unfamiliar with, and potentially unfathomable. We however have the opportunity to see explanation blocks in sourcebooks. Overpowers are fathomable to US mortals because they have been conceived by us. They are marked by a divine rank > 20. I would therefore argue, strictly from the 3E interpretation, that they are divines and, again from the 3E perspective, be incorporated into the Immanence.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
All the deities, planes, heroes, trees, rocks, etc. are a part of him and he can alter it as he sees fit.
Except for the problem that there is no need, want or desire to do so, of course.
There is no indication that the Immanence loses the will to interact within the reality he encompasses. That is an inference.
As for the CHIM discussion, all I have to add (since this isn't the proper forum for it)is that you can run over to Dagoth Ur in the first few minutes of the game and he will acknowledge you as Nerevar even prior to any of the events of the main quest including speaking to Vivec.
I'm not particularly a Star Wars lore buff so I can't speak as to force ghosts. |
Edited by - Veritas on 19 Apr 2012 03:44:12 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 04:03:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not seeing it. Leapfrogging deities and everything could be passing to a higher plane of existence, and have nothing to do with power level/ability. Unless it explicitly says this epic whatever dramatically increases the power level of the PC, then you're reading into it.
I will concede the point that it doesn't say the character's power increases beyond a deity. However the description does note that as you increasingly have power over the world around you. It follows that perfect understanding would make the character all-powerful. The description reveals that deities and primordials consist of a peace of the one energy which the character becomes the totality of. It is an uphill battle to say that your finger (a part of you) is mightier than you as a whole.
Edit:
To put it another way, he's not on a higher plane. He's not more powerful than any individual god, he IS ALL the gods. All of them. Every Primordial, every mortal,every blade of grass,every spell, the Abyss, etc. The Immanence is all of those things simultaneously. The Immanence is omnipresent.
Again, where does it say there is a dramatic power increase? If it doesn't say that, you're reading into it.
I don't see how a perfect understanding equates to being all powerful. |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 04:11:53
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| I believe I've mentioned twice before that it says that as their understanding of energy increased, so did their power over the material world. Logically, it follows that when their knowledge increases to a complete understanding of energy, their power over the perceived material world would commensurately increase. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 10:02:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
I agree that its open to interpretation. However as far as 3E is concerned, a DR > 20 is still a god. The implication is that mortals can understand demigods, (1-5), 6-10 (lesser), 11-15 (intermediate) and 16-20 (greater) to a degree but 21+ (over) is still a divine status, just one which mortals are unfamiliar with, and potentially unfathomable.
Not potentially unfathomable. It flat-out states that a 21+ "deity" is beyond the understanding of mortals, period. By its very nature, it is no longer a "mere" deity, but something unknowable.
Your argument is predicated on overpowers being fathomable and thus applicable to purely divine status, when that conclusion just isn't supported by the extremely limited information available on them and on Ao (not to mention you're trying to mix and match 3E and 4E, which is fraught with hazards from the start).
As I said before, if anything I would return to the analogy of the "immanence" as a tablecloth and Ao the guy tying it into a pretty pink bow.
quote:
There is no indication that the Immanence loses the will to interact within the reality he encompasses. That is an inference.
Yet as I've pointed out, the concept of becoming such a creature logically carries the inherent eventuality of a lack of caring. You would have to demonstrate using textual evidence (of which I'm pretty sure there is none) that they retain the will to interact and engage with the mortal reality.
It makes very little sense otherwise. All the other "immanences" that have popped up over time would still be running around with omnipotence messing everything up - and with the sort of "power" you're asserting that they possess, they would pose a larger problem for "game balance" and "setting coherency" than did any high-level characters with that old 1E-3E argument about how high-level characters take the spotlight away from the PCs.
quote:
...you can run over to Dagoth Ur in the first few minutes of the game and he will acknowledge you as Nerevar even prior to any of the events of the main quest including speaking to Vivec.
You still have to say it yourself to fully realise it, and even then you're skipping over much of the MQ (presumably, in most cases people will have already gone through the MQ before going to Dagoth Ur - his scripting doesn't take that into account). |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 10:46:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
I believe I've mentioned twice before that it says that as their understanding of energy increased, so did their power over the material world. Logically, it follows that when their knowledge increases to a complete understanding of energy, their power over the perceived material world would commensurately increase.
Not logical. Understanding something does not equal being able to manipulate it. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 12:00:23
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First, the Aboleth Elder. Now the Immanence? A villain does not need to be overly powerful to be cool...Instead of creating new ones, FR should focus on the under-developed villains, which would most likely work out better.
Anyway, Richard's new series might be able to shed light to the many questions raised in this thread, since the Immanence (Is that really how it's spelled?) plays a major role in causing chaos in Rashemen. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 13:35:42
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I'll endeavour to respond to multiple posters here. I would also like to briefly respond that I am indeed drawing from several versions of D&D because there is no 4e lore by itself that could really support the debate. As far as I know, with the advent of 4E there is no Ao. However for the sake of argument I'm using available cross edition sources. On final note on this theme is that I'm not trying to convince anyone the Ao isn't the bees knees and the ultimate being in Reaslmspace. I'm exploring how a new idea introduced in 4E may interact with the established power structure.
Eldacar
The SRD (which I may post freely here) states:
Divine Rank 21+
"These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god."
This establishes several points.
1) As 3E goes, An overdeity is a deity with a divine rank 21+. This is definitional.
2) The SRD does not say they are a "mere deity". Furthermore whether they are "beyond the ken of mortals" is irrelevant an an Immanece ceases to be a mortal. This is the same description applied in Faiths & Pantheons so it more than likely applies to Ao.
3)You're drawing an unstated inference that an Immanence stops caring. However the text constantly refers to the character individually. "You are an Immanence, you are everywhere." (among others). The ED makes no mention of a complete loss of the awareness of the perceived individual. It doesn't even follow natural human existence. I'm sure you daydream. In those daydreams you encompass the entirety of every actor yet still you engage in it.
4) As for the tablecloth example, that may well be the case. Unfortunately there is no support for it. I can make the same unsupported counterargument (as I've made before) that with that energy field becoming self aware because of the Immanence, it can reject any change Ao chooses to make.
5) This is an epic destiny. Each one is unique. There may never have been an Immanence before this character. Even if there was "all the Immanences" can only be just the one.
Wooly
It says it does in the descritpion.
Dennis
Who said an Immanence is a villain? It doesn't need to conflict with Ao at all. They may not even have overlapping interests.For all we know, a new Immanence may be how overpowers reproduce, like the Immortals (and their mysterious overbeings) from back in the day. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 13:55:31
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In The Masked Witches, the main villain received direct orders from the Eminence. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 17:04:56
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The Eminence and an Immanence are two separate things, aren't they?
BTW, I think the whole Immanence thing was created just to give some (rather poor) rules-structure to BC's Eldest. I believe Krash called this the "I have a cool idea, so lets paste it on top of existing lore" effect. I also feel the same way about it that he does. 
Do I believe there are Overgods (in D&D)? Yes. Do I believe there are beings above them? Yes. Do I believe that this hierarchy may even be near-infinite? Yes. Do I believe there are subtle degrees within the hierarchy that allow beings with less power to hold more sway in certain, specific situations? Yes.
Do I believe any of this should be in D&D? No
The rules can barely hold-together above level 14 or so - D&D was designed to work within the confines of possible human abilities, and breaks-down soon after you go beyond that barrier.
I still think OD&D handled it best - the deities were called Immortals, and were all ascended mortals, and anything beyond and above them were theoretical, and even the immortals had no clue what 'lies beyond' (although some of them were aware there IS a 'beyond'). You can imagine anything you like, but the rules stopped there. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Apr 2012 17:07:39 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 17:12:04
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Markustay is correct, the Immanence ED has no relation to the Eminence (villain) in FR.
Also the concept does not contradict what Markustay says above. The destiny is not an in-game mechanic. It is an epilogue for the mythic hero your character becomes. It is not a character that remains in play. This discussion is directed more to possible ramifications if such a character achieved such destiny in an FR campaign. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 18:16:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
Wooly
It says it does in the descritpion.
So it explicitly states, in the description, that the Immanence is all-powerful and able to manipulate all forms of energy in any way imaginable, with no limitations whatsoever? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 19:47:38
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That sounds like a 'Q' (from Star Trek).
They are supposedly all-powerful. Yet, in one episode, 'Q' (the one we got to know) was being punished by the 'Q Continuum', and was made mortal (with no powers).
So there's the rub - you are all-powerful, until you meat another all-powerful being who decides he/she doesn't want YOU to be all-powerful. Its a bit of a catch-22, really (or one of those annoying logic-loops).
It also reminds me (in a strange way) of Marvel comics Cosmic Cube lore. Basically a 'wish box' that can do anything. Every race gets to create only one, which is like a larval state for an entire universe to be born (after a period of obtaining it's own sentience). Like a 'universe egg'... which brings me right back to The Beyonder I mentioned earlier (who turned out to be one-half of a Cosmic Cube). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Apr 2012 19:48:07 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 19:55:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
Wooly
It says it does in the descritpion.
So it explicitly states, in the description, that the Immanence is all-powerful and able to manipulate all forms of energy in any way imaginable, with no limitations whatsoever?
The best advice I can give you is to find the book and read the description to see what I mean. I can't (and won't) quote all the relevant sections verbatim because that is copyrighted materials and against site policy.
I don't have the book on hand at the moment but it does say that character with the Immanence ED develops great power over the world when he recognizes it is made of energy. When he accomplishes his epic destiny he chooses to put his mortal affairs in order and then uses his power to become omnipresent.
If he can effect the world when he's localized in one body, the only reasonable inference remaining is that when he is EVERYWHERE is that he can effect everything. Not to mention that he is not manipulating different kinds of energy. There is ONLY the one energy and he can direct its currents, shapes, etc. He's a sentient campaign setting. Anything anyone can do he can do because they're all energy and he is that energy. If John can lift a book and you're Johh, you can lift the book. The Immanence is everything. Every god, every primordial simultaneously. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 20:21:51
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Unless it explicitly says you become omnipotent, you're reading into it. Great power and perfect understanding are not the same as being all-powerful.
Someone with the means to blow up half the world has great power over the world -- but that doesn't mean he can turn it into a ball of cheese just by willing it, or turn the entire population into perky-breasted elven cheerleaders.
Someone may understand that everything is energy, but that doesn't mean they have the ability to manipulate that energy. If it did mean that, it would mean that physicists are omnipotent. This is clearly not the case.
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 01:41:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless it explicitly says you become omnipotent, you're reading into it. Great power and perfect understanding are not the same as being all-powerful.
Someone with the means to blow up half the world has great power over the world -- but that doesn't mean he can turn it into a ball of cheese just by willing it, or turn the entire population into perky-breasted elven cheerleaders.
Someone may understand that everything is energy, but that doesn't mean they have the ability to manipulate that energy. If it did mean that, it would mean that physicists are omnipotent. This is clearly not the case.
You're getting hung up on omnipotence, seizing a stray (and ill advised)comment of mine and getting sidetracked off the thread as intended. This thread is about speculating about the nature of seemingly two separate but extraordinarily powerful We haven't seen anything (other than arguably a dungeon master) which exercises omnipotence WITHIN the context of any D&D setting. The sole potential exception to that is the Parable Epic Destiny wherein the character effectively becomes the campaign's dungeon master. |
Edited by - Veritas on 20 Apr 2012 01:43:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 02:52:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless it explicitly says you become omnipotent, you're reading into it. Great power and perfect understanding are not the same as being all-powerful.
Someone with the means to blow up half the world has great power over the world -- but that doesn't mean he can turn it into a ball of cheese just by willing it, or turn the entire population into perky-breasted elven cheerleaders.
Someone may understand that everything is energy, but that doesn't mean they have the ability to manipulate that energy. If it did mean that, it would mean that physicists are omnipotent. This is clearly not the case.
You're getting hung up on omnipotence, seizing a stray (and ill advised)comment of mine and getting sidetracked off the thread as intended. This thread is about speculating about the nature of seemingly two separate but extraordinarily powerful We haven't seen anything (other than arguably a dungeon master) which exercises omnipotence WITHIN the context of any D&D setting. The sole potential exception to that is the Parable Epic Destiny wherein the character effectively becomes the campaign's dungeon master.
You've been the one claiming that this destiny grants omnipotence. So far, I've not seen where it's anything beyond a way powerful archmage, if that powerful. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 04:42:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
1) As 3E goes, An overdeity is a deity with a divine rank 21+. This is definitional.
2) The SRD does not say they are a "mere deity". Furthermore whether they are "beyond the ken of mortals" is irrelevant an an Immanece ceases to be a mortal.
Also as 3E goes, an overdeity (a deity with 21+ DvR) is explicitly beyond the understanding of mortals (which is what an "immanence" starts out as, so they would have to gain their understanding of it post-ascension, if indeed it is even possible for them to do so), and also shares several important difference. They have no care for worshipers. They do not answer prayers. How to become one is unknown (you can't just get it by having lots of people worship you). They are concerned with matters (if, indeed, they are concerned with anything at all, though Ao having an assignment and describing "millions of others like his" implies that they do indeed have some sort of manifesto) that are well beyond the concept or understanding of anything below their level, just like gods are concerned with matters beyond the understanding of mortals.
Additionally, I never stated that they were assumed to be a mere deity. They are beyond mere deities.
quote:
3)You're drawing an unstated inference that an Immanence stops caring. However the text constantly refers to the character individually.
Because it's your epic destiny.
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It doesn't even follow natural human existence. I'm sure you daydream. In those daydreams you encompass the entirety of every actor yet still you engage in it.
Yet I still know it to be an illusion. Transitory, of the moment, and that it will ultimately pass. I have no real engagement in it as a result.
quote:
4) As for the tablecloth example, that may well be the case. Unfortunately there is no support for it. I can make the same unsupported counterargument (as I've made before) that with that energy field becoming self aware because of the Immanence, it can reject any change Ao chooses to make.
I've been pointing out reasons for why it may well be the case for several posts now. Frankly speaking, it feels as though you're getting hung up on "being more than an overgod" concept (and mix-n-matching 3E & 4E) and are claiming that the cosmos could reject the tampering of Ao because the "immanence" is suddenly powerful enough to stop him. I disagree with that on every level, because as Waterdeep itself states, one of Ao's favourite means of manifesting himself is as a part of (indeed, the centre of) everything, but at the same time separate from it. Even if the "immanence" is a part of everything, Ao is still the centre of everything. Which by definition would include the "immanence" but with Ao still able to maintain separation at his leisure.
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5) This is an epic destiny. Each one is unique. There may never have been an Immanence before this character. Even if there was "all the Immanences" can only be just the one.
I find this unlikely as well. For example, the Demigod destiny. Right off the bat I would note Obould in 4E FR, who has already undergone what amounts to an Epic Destiny. Not to mention the many others who have ascended to godhood previously. By definition the destinies cannot be unique, because they can all be achieved by the right individual. Absence of evidence that there have been previous individuals who went through the apotheosis is not evidence of an absence of it, remember. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 15:41:19
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Or it could simply mean you have merged with the Universe's 'Overmind' - that you have quite literally "become one with god" (which is a recurring theme in several RW religions).
Because if others have done this destiny, and/or there is an existing 'sentience of the universe', then why would you automatically usurp them? If that were the case, then someone else taking the same epic destiny, and finishing it 1 minute after you, would royally screw you.
It seems more like a SW/Force kinda thing, to me. A group of 'all powerful' beings is impossible, ergo you would have to become part of some sort of 'group mind', because if there is even a single being anywhere of your stature, then you are NOT all-powerful. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 02:48:38
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If gods can have aspects, why not an overgod? The Eminence could be Ao's aspect. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 04:15:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
If gods can have aspects, why not an overgod? The Eminence could be Ao's aspect.
One, this thread is about a epic destiny, or somesuch, not a specific entity.
Two, why would Ao need an aspect? As far as the Realms is concerned, he is the top dog, on top of everything -- there is no need to have any aspects on top of that. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 04:23:27
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He's not the top dog. Though probably no mortal in Toril knows it, the Luminous Being (Ao's master) is. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Topic |
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What do you think? Ao vs. Immanence
