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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 04:40:20
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Poll Question:
That is, influential to the growth and development of Netheril. We may have different definitions of ‘influential,’ and that’s fine. I would share this, from Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English: adj. having a lot of influence and therefore changing the way people think and behave.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 04:41:28
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It’s no surprise that I’m a big fan of Telamont. This time, though, I’m not casting my vote on him. While his research on the then Demiplane of Shadow was quite important and provided avenues for other wizards to hone their magical abilities by tapping into an alternative source of magic, it may not be as great as Ioulaum’s contribution. Ioulaum was the first to shear an entire mountain and create the very first floating city in history (using arcane magic, as opposed to Rune Magic of the giants who also had their own flying city). Many archwizards followed right after. But we should never forget the man who started it all, and definitely give him his due credit. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 11:24:27
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Likely the one you've never heard of.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 13:18:52
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| Ioulaum did start it but Karsus brought it all crashing down and in the process killed a goddess and changed the face of the world forever more ,so i have to vote for him. |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 14:58:58
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| Ioulaum... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 15:24:27
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Karsus had a lot of influence -- he destroyed his nation, and caused the nature of magic to be altered forever. So the few people that survived his folly had to relearn everything...
Hard to top that, in terms of influence. |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 15:39:59
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| Karsus |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 18:57:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Karsus had a lot of influence -- he destroyed his nation, and caused the nature of magic to be altered forever. So the few people that survived his folly had to relearn everything...
Hard to top that, in terms of influence.
Wooly basically said exactly what I wanted to say. |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 19:05:58
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quote:
influential to the growth and development of Netheril
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"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 20:42:57
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Ioulaum ands down
with Lord KArsus, The Chronomancer , LArloch, and the terraseer somewhere behind the man, the myth and the legend..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 23:33:10
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I think my vote has to go to Ioulaum.
His campaign againt the orcs (wherein at least 150,000 orcs died), the aptly named Excursion into Extinction, removed a threat that had spelled the doom of so many great kingdoms before (elven, dwarven and human)...all but guaranteed Netheril's success.
Setting aside the culture-defining acheivements of creating the floating cities and inventing mythallars. I think the fact the Netherese themselves considered him the 'Father of Netheril' and not until Ioulaum fled did the people turn to Karsus for leadership ...speaks volumes for Ioulaum's importance.
I must give honourable mention to the Terraseer though. He is the sort of pervading, machiavellian nation-crafter whose influence canot really be measured.
Historically speaking though...with regards primarily to Faerun as a whole...then I think Karsus' efforts had greater influence on the world. But that's a different measure really...Abe Lincoln vs 9/11 |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
Edited by - Eli the Tanner on 14 Apr 2012 23:34:54 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 00:36:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Eli the Tanner
I must give honourable mention to the Terraseer though. He is the sort of pervading, machiavellian nation-crafter whose influence canot really be measured.
-He wasn't a Netherese Archmage, though. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 01:12:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
[quote]Originally posted by Eli the Tanner
-He wasn't a Netherese Archmage, though.
Hence the honourable mention. I know he can't technically be considered as he wasn't a Netherese Archwizard but I thought I'd give him a nod as an influential archmage in Netheril nonetheless. |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 01:20:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Karsus had a lot of influence -- he destroyed his nation, and caused the nature of magic to be altered forever. So the few people that survived his folly had to relearn everything...
Hard to top that, in terms of influence.
Perhaps. Though nothing would have crashed down if Ioulaum didn't invent the mythallar in the first place. Just like there would have been no plane/helicopter crashes if such inventions weren't made. If the Netherese continued to live on the ground, Mystryl's death and the temporary collapse of magic would have less adverse effects... |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 15 Apr 2012 04:05:21 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 01:24:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Eli the Tanner
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
[quote]Originally posted by Eli the Tanner
-He wasn't a Netherese Archmage, though.
Hence the honourable mention. I know he can't technically be considered as he wasn't a Netherese Archwizard but I thought I'd give him a nod as an influential archmage in Netheril nonetheless.
He's a sarrukh. That's why I didn't include him in the options. But I'm well aware of his contributions and influence, as likely most of us here are.
I agree, though, that he deserves an honorable mention.
---
I wonder, who voted Oberon? A fan of spelljamming? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 15 Apr 2012 01:25:38 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 01:45:58
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Likely the one you've never heard of.
-- George Krashos
Agreed.
While those listed as potential options in the poll all have had some significant influence on the development of the Netherse and the nation of Netheril as a whole [Karsus, especially], I suspect that in its long history, there are still unacknowledged archwizards who have either been forgotten or ignored... simply because "younger" upstarts have stolen the spotlight, so to speak. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 01:54:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Likely the one you've never heard of.
-- George Krashos
Agreed.
While those listed as potential options in the poll all have had some significant influence on the development of the Netherse and the nation of Netheril as a whole [Karsus, especially], I suspect that in its long history, there are still unacknowledged archwizards who have either been forgotten or ignored... simply because "younger" upstarts have stolen the spotlight, so to speak.
The inventors can be forgotten, but the inventions are remembered. The contributors gone, but their contributions continue to affect lives. Unless you can name any specific influence/contribution/invention by these unknown figures that bettered the lives of the Netherese, I'm inclined to disagree. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 03:15:45
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I'm running with Krash's idea that the most influential Netherese archwizards are those that haven't been mentioned in the Realmslore. Yet.
In other words, the Realms as a vibrant and growing setting still allows for the possibility for new "old" archwizards to be revealed as the old Empire of Netherse is developed further. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 03:47:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Karsus had a lot of influence -- he destroyed his nation, and caused the nature of magic to be altered forever. So the few people that survived his folly had to relearn everything...
Hard to top that, in terms of influence.
Perhaps. Though nothing would have crashed down if Ioulaum didn't invent the mythal in the first place. Just like there would have been no plane/helicopter crashes if such inventions weren't made. If the Netherese continued to live on the ground, Mystryl's death and the temporary collapse of magic would have less adverse effects...
Ioulaum didn't invent the mythal, it was the mythallar.
And one thing real world history has shown, that I think applies to your argument: the credited inventor of something is often the person who completes his invention first -- or who gets to the press, first. If Ioulaum hadn't made the enclaves possible, someone else -- possibly even Karsus -- would have done it, later. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 04:14:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Karsus had a lot of influence -- he destroyed his nation, and caused the nature of magic to be altered forever. So the few people that survived his folly had to relearn everything...
Hard to top that, in terms of influence.
Perhaps. Though nothing would have crashed down if Ioulaum didn't invent the mythallar in the first place. Just like there would have been no plane/helicopter crashes if such inventions weren't made. If the Netherese continued to live on the ground, Mystryl's death and the temporary collapse of magic would have less adverse effects...
Ioulaum didn't invent the mythal, it was the mythallar.
And one thing real world history has shown, that I think applies to your argument: the credited inventor of something is often the person who completes his invention first -- or who gets to the press, first. If Ioulaum hadn't made the enclaves possible, someone else -- possibly even Karsus -- would have done it, later.
Oh, I meant the mythallar. Corrected it already.
I don't doubt Karsus could have invented the mythallar if Ioulaum hadn't done so first. His various works, including a fountain that twisted and defied gravity, were indicative of that. However, just because a possibility exists does not mean we should ignore the actual thing. Karsus inventing the mythallar is a possibility; Ioulaum is the one who actually did it, and influenced others to follow the same.
Besides, here's another possibility: Karsus, in his almost boundless ingenuity, might have focused on other aspects of magic and failed to give enough attention to gravity-defying magic if Ioulaum hadn't created the mythallar. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 15 Apr 2012 04:15:42 |
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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe
Canada
137 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 04:45:57
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| I am a fan of Telamont Tanthul, so that is where my vote went. |
Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P24 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 16:55:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Karsus had a lot of influence -- he destroyed his nation, and caused the nature of magic to be altered forever. So the few people that survived his folly had to relearn everything...
Hard to top that, in terms of influence.
Perhaps. Though nothing would have crashed down if Ioulaum didn't invent the mythallar in the first place. Just like there would have been no plane/helicopter crashes if such inventions weren't made. If the Netherese continued to live on the ground, Mystryl's death and the temporary collapse of magic would have less adverse effects...
Ioulaum didn't invent the mythal, it was the mythallar.
And one thing real world history has shown, that I think applies to your argument: the credited inventor of something is often the person who completes his invention first -- or who gets to the press, first. If Ioulaum hadn't made the enclaves possible, someone else -- possibly even Karsus -- would have done it, later.
Oh, I meant the mythallar. Corrected it already.
I don't doubt Karsus could have invented the mythallar if Ioulaum hadn't done so first. His various works, including a fountain that twisted and defied gravity, were indicative of that. However, just because a possibility exists does not mean we should ignore the actual thing. Karsus inventing the mythallar is a possibility; Ioulaum is the one who actually did it, and influenced others to follow the same.
Besides, here's another possibility: Karsus, in his almost boundless ingenuity, might have focused on other aspects of magic and failed to give enough attention to gravity-defying magic if Ioulaum hadn't created the mythallar.
It didn't need to have been Karsus... I'm just saying that I'm less willing to ascribe great influence simply because of an invention, since someone else could have made that same (or similar) invention later. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 18:14:28
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Ioulaum for me. Being the first to cobble together a whole flying city from a bunch of rocks was a huge game changer.
I'm no Netheril expert, though, so grain of salt and all that.
I'd sure like to learn a little bit more about some of the other, as yet unwritten about Arcanists of Netheril. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 22:39:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Karsus had a lot of influence -- he destroyed his nation, and caused the nature of magic to be altered forever. So the few people that survived his folly had to relearn everything...
Hard to top that, in terms of influence.
Perhaps. Though nothing would have crashed down if Ioulaum didn't invent the mythallar in the first place. Just like there would have been no plane/helicopter crashes if such inventions weren't made. If the Netherese continued to live on the ground, Mystryl's death and the temporary collapse of magic would have less adverse effects...
Ioulaum didn't invent the mythal, it was the mythallar.
And one thing real world history has shown, that I think applies to your argument: the credited inventor of something is often the person who completes his invention first -- or who gets to the press, first. If Ioulaum hadn't made the enclaves possible, someone else -- possibly even Karsus -- would have done it, later.
Oh, I meant the mythallar. Corrected it already.
I don't doubt Karsus could have invented the mythallar if Ioulaum hadn't done so first. His various works, including a fountain that twisted and defied gravity, were indicative of that. However, just because a possibility exists does not mean we should ignore the actual thing. Karsus inventing the mythallar is a possibility; Ioulaum is the one who actually did it, and influenced others to follow the same.
Besides, here's another possibility: Karsus, in his almost boundless ingenuity, might have focused on other aspects of magic and failed to give enough attention to gravity-defying magic if Ioulaum hadn't created the mythallar.
It didn't need to have been Karsus... I'm just saying that I'm less willing to ascribe great influence simply because of an invention, since someone else could have made that same (or similar) invention later.
I'd concur with this sentiment, the creation of the Mythallar and flying enclaves are icing to the Ioulaum cake (although undoubtedly culture-shaping ideas). I always felt it was Ioulaum's pro-active approach to Netheril society that steam-rollered it into what it became. He led the way that sent other Archwizards scrambling to match him (including ol' karsus) and learn from him. Karsus would most likely have exceeded Ioulaum, given time, but his influence among the Netherese was a rather divisive one...breeding bitterness between enclaves and the folk who lived on the ground still.
I love all the political power-play of Netheril and am considering setting my next campaign there, probably using the Pathfinder Kingmaker campaign as a base. |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 01:46:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Eli the Tanner
I must give honourable mention to the Terraseer though. He is the sort of pervading, machiavellian nation-crafter whose influence canot really be measured.
-He wasn't a Netherese Archmage, though.
pcs were not supposed to know taht though |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 14:20:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It didn't need to have been Karsus... I'm just saying that I'm less willing to ascribe great influence simply because of an invention, since someone else could have made that same (or similar) invention later.
So basically what you are saying is that the achievements of someone are irrelevant because someone else might (or might not) do the same some other time |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 16:06:52
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| Karsus killed a god. /end discussion |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 16:17:58
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
pcs were not supposed to know taht though
-We're not PCs.
-That aside, I can't say I really like the Terraseer in the sense that he's the representative of a society that basically propped Netheril up as a social/science experiment, so to speak. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 17:25:52
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It didn't need to have been Karsus... I'm just saying that I'm less willing to ascribe great influence simply because of an invention, since someone else could have made that same (or similar) invention later.
So basically what you are saying is that the achievements of someone are irrelevant because someone else might (or might not) do the same some other time
I'm saying that even if an invention has a big impact on society, the impact of that invention does not necessarily indicate that the creator has influence in that society.
Tim Berners-Lee created the World Wide Web -- and now the world lives online, with games and information accessible at a moment's notice. You can shop, argue with people, do research, play games, view a wide variety of videos, apply for a job, and a lot more, all online, thanks to him. But the last time I checked, his influence in the world was a lot less than a politician, a prominent actor, or even a celebrity who has never done anything other than be inexplicably famous. Most people who aren't at least somewhat in tune with IT haven't even heard of him.
So while Ioulaum may have revolutionized Netherese society with his invention, that fact alone does not necessarily give him influence in Netherese society. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 13:51:36
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Ah good point.
But I guess that with him beeing a war hero, training over 3000 arcanists, a great lot of inventions which revolutionized netherese society, him storing the nether scrolls, him beeing the first citizen of Netheril and his disapearence creating a panic we can assume that it doesn't really fit here.
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Karsus killed a god. /end discussion
So how exactly did this help the grow und development of Netheril? |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 17 Apr 2012 13:52:27 |
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The Most Influential Netherese Archwizard
