Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 The Most Influential Netherese Archwizard
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 8

_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
542 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2012 :  14:20:39  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It didn't need to have been Karsus... I'm just saying that I'm less willing to ascribe great influence simply because of an invention, since someone else could have made that same (or similar) invention later.


So basically what you are saying is that the achievements of someone are irrelevant because someone else might (or might not) do the same some other time
Go to Top of Page

Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
775 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2012 :  16:06:52  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Karsus killed a god. /end discussion
Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2877 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2012 :  16:17:58  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

pcs were not supposed to know taht though


-We're not PCs.

-That aside, I can't say I really like the Terraseer in the sense that he's the representative of a society that basically propped Netheril up as a social/science experiment, so to speak.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29635 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2012 :  17:25:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It didn't need to have been Karsus... I'm just saying that I'm less willing to ascribe great influence simply because of an invention, since someone else could have made that same (or similar) invention later.


So basically what you are saying is that the achievements of someone are irrelevant because someone else might (or might not) do the same some other time



I'm saying that even if an invention has a big impact on society, the impact of that invention does not necessarily indicate that the creator has influence in that society.

Tim Berners-Lee created the World Wide Web -- and now the world lives online, with games and information accessible at a moment's notice. You can shop, argue with people, do research, play games, view a wide variety of videos, apply for a job, and a lot more, all online, thanks to him. But the last time I checked, his influence in the world was a lot less than a politician, a prominent actor, or even a celebrity who has never done anything other than be inexplicably famous. Most people who aren't at least somewhat in tune with IT haven't even heard of him.

So while Ioulaum may have revolutionized Netherese society with his invention, that fact alone does not necessarily give him influence in Netherese society.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
542 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2012 :  13:51:36  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah good point.

But I guess that with him beeing a war hero, training over 3000 arcanists, a great lot of inventions which revolutionized netherese society, him storing the nether scrolls, him beeing the first citizen of Netheril and his disapearence creating a panic we can assume that it doesn't really fit here.

quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Karsus killed a god. /end discussion


So how exactly did this help the grow und development of Netheril?

Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 17 Apr 2012 13:52:27
Go to Top of Page

Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
775 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2012 :  14:49:13  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, killing a goddess of magic on a people that live/breath magic would do that, Jarlaxle.

Aside from that, if we take the "Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English: adj. having a lot of influence and therefore changing the way people think and behave." definition in the first post, I think killing almost everyone in Netheril probably changed the way people living there thought and behaved.



Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29635 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2012 :  15:40:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

Ah good point.

But I guess that with him beeing a war hero, training over 3000 arcanists, a great lot of inventions which revolutionized netherese society, him storing the nether scrolls, him beeing the first citizen of Netheril and his disapearence creating a panic we can assume that it doesn't really fit here.



Those things mark him as influential. Just the one invention isn't enough, but the rest of this stuff is.

Still, for me, ending the growth and development of Netheril -- and destroying the nation and causing magic to be rewritten for everyone in Realmspace, not just Netherese survivors -- is far more influential than everything else.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
542 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2012 :  15:49:33  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I'm no native english speaker but I asumed it was meant more on a positive way.
When including this huge action of Karsus which changed Netheril more than anything else by destroying it I think impact would be a better description than influence. But I'm not sure if there really is a linguistic difference between those words (and in this context).
Go to Top of Page

Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
775 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2012 :  16:38:33  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreed if we say "positive influence" on Netheril then it's not Karsus! For sure. But overall influence has to be Karsus by my book.
Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2877 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2012 :  21:01:48  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Plenty of good things were done to Netheril during my heydays. You act as if Karsus was a monster.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29635 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2012 :  21:12:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Plenty of good things were done to Netheril during my heydays. You act as if Karsus was a monster.



Nope, just wackadoo.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2877 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2012 :  21:35:34  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29635 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2012 :  22:06:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...



Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  02:53:49  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...



Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.


He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29635 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  04:09:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...



Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.


He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame.



Of course, because she forced him to come up with the idea, she forced him to decide to go thru with it, and she forced him to pick her. On top of that, her acting to protect all of magic -- her reason for existence -- is just so spiteful.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  04:12:58  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...



Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.


He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame.


Of course, because she forced him to come up with the idea, she forced him to decide to go thru with it, and she forced him to pick her. On top of that, her acting to protect all of magic -- her reason for existence -- is just so spiteful.


And in her supposed great wisdom, she thought destroying an entire magical empire without thinking of a less disastrous alternative was a wise move.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29635 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  04:58:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...



Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.


He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame.


Of course, because she forced him to come up with the idea, she forced him to decide to go thru with it, and she forced him to pick her. On top of that, her acting to protect all of magic -- her reason for existence -- is just so spiteful.


And in her supposed great wisdom, she thought destroying an entire magical empire without thinking of a less disastrous alternative was a wise move.



Let's see, save the world now and let a bunch of arrogant fools die, or let the world die and save the arrogant fools who caused it? Yeah, tough choice, there.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  05:07:06  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...



Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.


He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame.


Of course, because she forced him to come up with the idea, she forced him to decide to go thru with it, and she forced him to pick her. On top of that, her acting to protect all of magic -- her reason for existence -- is just so spiteful.


And in her supposed great wisdom, she thought destroying an entire magical empire without thinking of a less disastrous alternative was a wise move.


Let's see, save the world now and let a bunch of arrogant fools die, or let the world die and save the arrogant fools who caused it? Yeah, tough choice, there.


Save the world AND the arrogant fools---the very same fools who practiced magic everyday of their long existence and helped increase her powers---and kill just ONE fool. That's an alternative she's either too lazy or stupid to see. Probably both.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31683 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  06:17:13  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...



Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.


He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame.

What blame does she share?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31683 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  06:17:49  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...



Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.


He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame.


Of course, because she forced him to come up with the idea, she forced him to decide to go thru with it, and she forced him to pick her. On top of that, her acting to protect all of magic -- her reason for existence -- is just so spiteful.


And in her supposed great wisdom, she thought destroying an entire magical empire without thinking of a less disastrous alternative was a wise move.
I'm curious. What would be a less disastrous alternative?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31683 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  06:19:43  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...



Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.


He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame.


Of course, because she forced him to come up with the idea, she forced him to decide to go thru with it, and she forced him to pick her. On top of that, her acting to protect all of magic -- her reason for existence -- is just so spiteful.


And in her supposed great wisdom, she thought destroying an entire magical empire without thinking of a less disastrous alternative was a wise move.


Let's see, save the world now and let a bunch of arrogant fools die, or let the world die and save the arrogant fools who caused it? Yeah, tough choice, there.


Save the world AND the arrogant fools---the very same fools who practiced magic everyday of their long existence and helped increase her powers---and kill just ONE fool. That's an alternative she's either too lazy or stupid to see. Probably both.

Why save arrogant fools when it was their insane presumption that they could both conceive and master the power of gods?

It's a delicate balance between the spheres of mortal and divine. And folk like Karsus only represent a fundamental disruption to that balance that shouldn't long be tolerated.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  07:04:05  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Why save arrogant fools when it was their insane presumption that they could both conceive and master the power of gods?

It's a delicate balance between the spheres of mortal and divine. And folk like Karsus only represent a fundamental disruption to that balance that shouldn't long be tolerated.


That's like saying she should have got rid of all ambitious, evil wizards there were on the planet.

Many non-Netherese wizards were evil, didn't care for the gods, and at times even spat at their faces. Yet Mystryl let them be, because in essence, by using magic, they helped strengthen her. Why would he treat the Netherese differently? Not all Netherese thought like Karsus, and were practically happy doing their business and ignoring the gods.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  07:11:34  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I'm curious. What would be a less disastrous alternative?


There are virtually thousands of them...Two that are obvious: teleport to a place where Karsus could not reach (which would have required the same amount of time she used in killing herself; besides, she got more than enough time to do just that, as Karsus was busy fighting the phaerimm that dared rise and stop him); or simply cut Karus (and he alone) off the Weave. If she could do that to greater deities, why not to a mere mortal?

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31683 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  07:55:57  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Why save arrogant fools when it was their insane presumption that they could both conceive and master the power of gods?

It's a delicate balance between the spheres of mortal and divine. And folk like Karsus only represent a fundamental disruption to that balance that shouldn't long be tolerated.


That's like saying she should have got rid of all ambitious, evil wizards there were on the planet.
Why? All ambitious and evil wizards haven't threatened to destroy the very fabric of the Weave.
quote:
Many non-Netherese wizards were evil, didn't care for the gods, and at times even spat at their faces. Yet Mystryl let them be, because in essence, by using magic, they helped strengthen her. Why would he treat the Netherese differently? Not all Netherese thought like Karsus, and were practically happy doing their business and ignoring the gods.
I'm not suggesting that Mystryl treat the Netherese arcanists any different from how she would treat those high-levelled mages of other societies.

But, at the same time, no other mortal civilisation has come as close to breaching the barrier between non-divine and divine, than the Netherese. That fact alone, should prompt Mystryl, and consequently, her successors, to more intensely monitor any and all civilisations that demonstrate sufficient ability to once again cross that barrier.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31683 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  07:58:58  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I'm curious. What would be a less disastrous alternative?


There are virtually thousands of them...Two that are obvious: teleport to a place where Karsus could not reach (which would have required the same amount of time she used in killing herself; besides, she got more than enough time to do just that, as Karsus was busy fighting the phaerimm that dared rise and stop him); or simply cut Karus (and he alone) off the Weave. If she could do that to greater deities, why not to a mere mortal?

We don't know anything of the intimate details of the relationship between Mystryl and the Weave, and by extension, the Realms. And the Grand Folly of Karsus created unprecedented levels of chaos and confusion about how that intimate relationship works.

I don't believe we can assume that rules we've seen applied elsewhere in similar scenarios, could have just as easily be applied in this situation.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 8 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000