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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Topic: HOW SHADE SURVIVED THE SPELLPLAGUE

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Originally posted by Dennis

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Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

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Originally posted by DennisHow did Shade manage to keep afloat despite the destruction of both the Weave and the Shadow Weave during the Spellplague?

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Maybe Shar knowing what was about to come instructed the shades on how to change their Mythallar so it gets its energy from raw magic instead of the (shadow)weave.

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She herself didn't know the Spellplague would also destroy her new toy (the Shadow Weave).

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I think there’s a lot to be said for the concept of Shar *shielding* Shade from the ravages of the Spellplague. Even if she didn’t realize the full extent of the consequences of Mystra’s demise (i.e. the destruction of the Shadow Weave also, she’d have to be a serious idiot not to think that serious havoc was about to go down. And we know Shar is many things, but an idiot is not one of them.
The way I visualize it, she “caught” Shade in a very similar fashion to the way Mystra “caught” some of the enclaves during the Fall of Netheril. She kept it afloat using her own power (or even moved it to the plane of Shadow/Shadowfell) for a time, until the arcanists there (who relearned magic really fast) could do it themselves. It’s quite possible that Rivalen used this as an opportunity to forcibly penetrate Shar (ahem!) in order to access her power directly, rather than through Mystra’s Weave (which was no longer an option); he then came out of the bargain with far greater power, and is now basically a demigod. This might have been his plan all along.
This presents an interesting story opportunity where Rivalen has now grown in power to rival Telamont, or even eclipsed him. Are they now enemies? Do they continue to work together, but sleep with one eye open? Perhaps they are coming to a confrontation for the hearts and souls of the Netherese people? (That’s how I do it in my game.)
But since Paul might be discussing this sort of thing in his forthcoming Cycle of Night series, I’ll stop there.

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Originally posted by Eilserus

Issue: Menzoberranzan's ruling council 3E in order of rank - Baenre, Barrison Del'Armgo, Faen Tlabbar, Xorlarrin, Mizzrym, Fey Branche, Tuin'Tarl, Duskryn (this would reflect House Agrach Dyrr's removal from the ruling council)

Menzoberranzan's ruling council 4E in order of rank - Baenre, Barrison Del'Armgo, Xorlarrin, Faen Tlabbar, Mizzrym, Fey Branche, Melarn, Vandree

Most canon seems to indicate that house advancement comes only in the form of eliminating houses directly above them in rank. Barrison Del'Armgo did have an unprecedented jump in ranks during its history, which I'd assume is a rare event. Xorlarrin and Faen Tlabbar have switched ranks. House Melarn is a troubling incident considering Hallistra was by all accounts a heretic. Old Yvonnel Baenre utterly destroyed House Oblodra when they strayed from the worship of Lolth, why have they allowed House Melarn to survive? And why would two houses join, I've never heard of such a thing. House Vandree used to be ranked 17th House and is now on the ruling council. They would have had to destroy 9 other families to climb that high.

Granted it's possible that there are ways a house can rise and fall in the city hierarchy, but nothing has really ever detailed the process other than house attacks against rival families. Maybe this will be detailed in the new Menzoberranzan book, but the changing of the ruling council in this drastic of a way never made sense to me.

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Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil


Now, where it overlaps:
In the second book of the trilogy, The Last Mythal, Farthest Reach, Araevin Teshurr became an Eladrin or became like an Eladrin. Richard Baker made a clear distinction in the novel the the Eladrin were not ancestral to Elves and were Celestial creatures.

'He felt a presence approaching, coming to him through the dark. It was a woman, radiant and beautiful, an Elf in shape and features, yet incandescent with the power contained in her form.

He looked up to her, and saw with his own eyes. She was a creature of starshine and wonder. A fey queen whose eyes shown like the sun. There was light and affection of a sort in her face, but there was something more besides-a terrible strength and willfulness that awed him. She was magic made flesh, the sudden power of the storm, the capriciousness of the wind, the delight of the ancient stars.

'An Eladrin,' he whispered. I have called a queen of the Court of Stars, a high lady of the fey lords!'

Farthest Reach, Richard Baker, pg. 303

This excerpt clearly defines that the Eladrin and Elves were never once related in the terms that they are now.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Earthmother/Chauntea

And not the usual "there are deeper mysteries in the heavens..." crap.

The Moonshaes were never a perfect fit, but the most obnoxious bit was the 'relationship' between those two beings. With the newer (4e) lore, there are some good possibilities for Earthmother (without blending her and Chauntea together, which makes no sense in light of the novels). There are also some interesting possibilities regarding the Moonwells/Pools (I prefer lore that is tied neatly together, rather then stand-alone stuff).

As one of my favorite posters (Gothic Dan) over on the WotC boards once said, "history does not happen in a vacuum". Interconnectivity is a key factor in a comprehensive setting like FR - it brings it to life for the fans.

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Originally posted by Diffan

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Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil


Now, where it overlaps:
In the second book of the trilogy, The Last Mythal, Farthest Reach, Araevin Teshurr became an Eladrin or became like an Eladrin. Richard Baker made a clear distinction in the novel the the Eladrin were not ancestral to Elves and were Celestial creatures.

'He felt a presence approaching, coming to him through the dark. It was a woman, radiant and beautiful, an Elf in shape and features, yet incandescent with the power contained in her form.

He looked up to her, and saw with his own eyes. She was a creature of starshine and wonder. A fey queen whose eyes shown like the sun. There was light and affection of a sort in her face, but there was something more besides-a terrible strength and willfulness that awed him. She was magic made flesh, the sudden power of the storm, the capriciousness of the wind, the delight of the ancient stars.

'An Eladrin,' he whispered. I have called a queen of the Court of Stars, a high lady of the fey lords!'

Farthest Reach, Richard Baker, pg. 303

This excerpt clearly defines that the Eladrin and Elves were never once related in the terms that they are now.

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This is how I'd explain it: When a creature of awesome might shows itself to someone who's possibly "lesser", they're going to do it with some splendor and radiance. Take any commoner in the Realms and show him The Simbul with a few enchantments/illusions active and see how much they would misrepresent her as a heavily host or angel with the magic pouring out. I think the same situation (could*) be applied to Araevin's interaction.

So in one sentence you claim that Araevin sorta becomes an Eladrin, via a gift from a Celestial Eladrin yet then say that they were never related? That really doesn't make sense to me as I feel** that his transformation is just a reconnection with Faerie (the Feywild) that "awakens" his power. Sure, it's a gift because he could never access that power himself, but I think it also has to do with his heritage.

*I use the world could becase it's speculation and not Canon. A guess as to how one might interpret it.

**Again, just a feeling I have that might explain how he "became" an Eladrin with just a kiss of a Celestial one. Also, that Eladrin might be pretty darn powerful for one of their kind, something that's not normally seen even among the Celestial Fey.

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Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil



I can't really say whether he became an Eladrin or not, but it somehow appears that the Eladrin queen graced him with some divine abilites or replaced him. It could have used a better explanation of his change in appearance, imo. Prior to 4e, the Eladrin were Celestial angel fey. The book even mentions Queen Morwel's Court of Stars. It never mentions any archfey. It sounded as if the Eladrin he encountered was a Tulani, as it referred to her as being a Fey queen. In previous sourcebooks, the Tulani are said the be the Faerie Lords.

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Originally posted by Diffan

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Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil



I can't really say whether he became an Eladrin or not, but it somehow appears that the Eladrin queen graced him with some divine abilites or replaced him. It could have used a better explanation of his change in appearance, imo. Prior to 4e, the Eladrin were Celestial angel fey. The book even mentions Queen Morwel's Court of Stars. It never mentions any archfey. It sounded as if the Eladrin he encountered was a Tulani, as it referred to her as being a Fey queen. In previous sourcebooks, the Tulani are said the be the Faerie Lords.

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Actually, the explanation is pretty good as it's open to interpretation. We've got a little wiggle room to come up with good ways of connecting lore without contradicting it.

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Originally posted by Apex

I have no problem with the Chauntea became the "Earthmother" aspect, as it is fairly clear in the original trilogy that the Earthmother "died" and her portfolio was subsumed by Chauntea. The druids in the original novels were definitely not agricultural, but that changed over time as the new "Earthmother" became more widely venerated. Having said this, my one of my settings to adventure/DM in the Realms is by far the pre-Darkwalker Moonshaes.

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Originally posted by Markustay

On Shades: I agree with Diffan. "Shar protected them" is just weak. connect it to the differences between the Weave and Shadoweave, and its pure win (two birds with one stone).

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Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil



But how can the Eladrin become mortal now? In lore's past, the Elves were never related to the Eladrin. The Eladrin were on good terms with the Elves and were thought to be chaotic good Elves who died, but they weren't.

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Originally posted by Markustay

@Diffan - is that canon? That the Shadoweave also collapsed when the Weave did? Although I think that makes perfect sense, it also invalidates quite a bit of old lore (including what Rich Baker told me - that they were 'separate')

I still think it needs some polish - like maybe Shar thought her weave could stand alone, but she was wrong - that would feather-out some of the rough edges.

As for the Shade Enclave, thats easy (now that I know the Shadoweave canonically collapsed). The mythalar is a physical (greater) artifact. Like all other magical devices created before the Spellplague, it continues to function. There may have been some weirdness regarding any Quasi-magical devices the Shades employed, due to the magical chaos, but I doubt that - Quasi-magical items are supported by a local power-source (like a spell pool), and not directly powered by the Weave. Ergo, if the Mythalar withstood the plague, then any devices powered by it would still function normally.

In other words, the Enclave was on its own power, and didn't need to rely on Toril's power-grid. Devices didn't fail, spells did.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Earthmother isn't Chauntea - the novels would make no sense if 'she' was.

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Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil

clear distinction in the novel the the Eladrin were not ancestral to Elves and were Celestial creatures.

'He felt a presence approaching, coming to him through the dark. It was a woman, radiant and beautiful, an Elf in shape and features, yet incandescent with the power contained in her form.

He looked up to her, and saw with his own eyes. She was a creature of starshine and wonder. A fey queen whose eyes shown like the sun. There was light and affection of a sort in her face, but there was something more besides-a terrible strength and willfulness that awed him. She was magic made flesh, the sudden power of the storm, the capriciousness of the wind, the delight of the ancient stars.

'An Eladrin,' he whispered. I have called a queen of the Court of Stars, a high lady of the fey lords!'

Farthest Reach, Richard Baker, pg. 303

This excerpt clearly defines that the Eladrin and Elves were never once related in the terms that they are now.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I never said they were different - in fact, I think they are all just Fey. I picture a Hindu-like ascension process, but without reincarnation. long-lived races can do this without the reincarnation (and Elves aren't human; not at all). Its complicated.

I am sorry this is bogging-down your thread again Erik - I will try to compose all my thoughts separately and post them elsewhere.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I think Arcane/standard magic comes from deities, but Rune_magic is even more ancient in nature and is related to the Primordials.

Just my own theory, mind you.

Rune_magic seems both more primitive and yet more powerful - it is able to manipulate the basic (Elemental) forces of the universe. Not as full of finesse as regular arcane magic, but much more fundamentally powerful. The runes literally call upon the underlying forces of everything.

I think Dwarves (as well as Giants) are somehow connected to the Primordials, and are therefor not 'allowed' (there is a story somewhere about Dwarves being denied access to the Nether Scrolls... they can't even see them) to practice the type of magic granted mortals. The Runes allow them to tap-into a much more ancient power - the "Music of the Spheres', or the "Language Primeval" - literally, the voice of God(s) that can bring ideas into physical being. Runes are just the written form of that Universal (deific) language.

Their appears to also be a counter-language - the dark Speech - which Riven is able to use. That would be the language of un-mmaking, and the written form would probably drive most creatures insane.

Once again, just some of my theories.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I like the idea that runes tap into something more primal and less controlled than the Weave, but I don't see a need to involve primordials -- perhaps runes were simply the first attempts to master magic.

As for dwarves not seeing the Nether Scrolls, that was an old (and difficult to find!) story on the Wizards site, dating back to around 2000. The Scrolls and the Dwarves/ The Denial of Mystryl. It's a very brief tale, and it offers a reason for why pre-3E dwarves could not use arcane magic.

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Originally posted by Markustay

There was difference - when Netheril fell, the Phaerimm had been draining the power from the mythalars themselves for years (several had already fallen, before Mystryl fell).

In another thread, I postulated how the Phaerimm could be the 'Caretakers of the Weave', which means they would have no authority or power over the Shadoweave (which means they were never draining Umbral energy, just Arcane). I actually think they weren't draining anything - they were shutting-down specific 'grids' within the weave itself, to repair those portions, and/or to prevent the damage from spreading. The Mythalars acted like Weave-taps, in that they drained (too much) power directly from The Weave itself.

You know what?

What if the 'life-draining' had little to do with The Weave at all? What if... it just damaged the Mythalars? Most of the Netherese Magic relied upon them - the majority of Netherese would have never realized the difference! The 'life' they were draining was from the Mythalars themselves!!! (and we already have canon that at least one was sentient)

Picture magic working like electricity (its all energy, after all). You know how a car electrical system works? The battery stores energy, to start the car only - while it is running it runs directly off the alternator. The mythalars work on a similar principle. In a car, if you disconnect the alternator (or if dies), the car will continue to run for awhile off the battery alone. However, if the battery is dead, and you disconnect the alternator, the car dies instantly. THIS is what happened when Karsus stole Mytryl's power - the Phaerimm had completely drained the cities' reserves, and when the Weave fell, they were powerless.

This also helps explain how some cities managed to survive for a few minutes longer - some for perhaps days - they had not been completely drained.

Not canon (not yet, anyway ), but the fact that the mythalars store energy is (the spell-pool like function of quasi-magical items), as well as the fact that they ran continuously (the levitating properties). I would say a mythalar was a sentient artifact that functioned as a (limited) spellpool, and also managed to maintain a Mythal-like field around the city itself (the levitating properties).

@Super Wizard: Just No.

Afraid for your job? Hows the tentacles hanging these days? Its only a matter of time, dude.... the gravy-train is leaving the station.

Railing against any changes to the 'staus quo' seems very anti-5e to me. Its a good thing you don't work for the company currently trying to produce such a wonderful effort.

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Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal

When the dwarves arrived on Toril (Yehimal Mts) and subsequently fanned out over large stretches of Faerun, Diirinka then still a respected member of the Morndinsamman, was the dwarven deity of magic and knowledge.

In those days, arcane magic was part of dwarven culture in ways somewhat comparible to druidic traditions and linked to the worship of Diirinka. Those wielding arcane power were termed 'savants' and by true-naming and knowing the corresponding runes they were able to tap into the raw arcane energies.

This was a process not without dangers - many a savant was driven mad when the arcane energy got out of control, displaying behavior not unlike seen in the derro - and therefore only practiced by a few – Diirinka's priesthood (in 3e game mechanics the savant would be a PrC for clerics of Diirinka).

When mastered properly though, the magic these savants could work would rival, sometimes nearly eclipse the elven high magic and the later works of the Netherese. The savants worked mainly for the benefit of the dwarven society, creating powerfull defenses, constructs - even in concert with other savants rearanging the strata of rock within the world to shape their own realms.

With the magic tradition of the dwarves so closely linked to Diirinka, it comes as no surprise that when the deity and his twin were banished from the Morndinsamman, the use of arcane magic all but disappeared from dwarven culture and traditions. A few savants remained, but their powers were reduced as they had to re-learn their Art and were shunned as worshippers of a banished deity. No longer were the raw energies available to them as they once had been. The runecasting tradition survived throughout the ages, but the arcane effects were no longer as powerful as they once had been.

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Erik Scott de Bie

I think that the eladrin ARE related to elves (celestial elves). Their shared ancestry can be a little murky--no one knows for sure where any natural/planar race originated.

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