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Originally posted by Therise

I would ditch the "All elves share a common ancestor" since it's unclear if they arose through evolution or derived magically or were created beings.

Instead, say that "some believe that elves all shared a common origin realm (Faerie or Arvandor)", something like that. Less trouble.

Also, I have a deep dislike of "Fey Step" and glowy eyes junk... neither have a classic "feel" of Tolkien elves or even mythical Alfar, so those things need to be ditched or toned down in 5E.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Ahem, IF YOU ARE PLAYING IN MY 4e FR GAME, LOOK AWAY NOW!!!
(...)
Tangentially, I will say that I am currently running a 4e FR game wherein one of the long term goals is indeed the return of Eilistraee. Though she doesn't know it, one of the PCs (a half-sun-elf/half-drow, mechanically an elf) is actually the reincarnation of Eilistraee. One of the main antagonists in the campaign is a drow who houses the spirit of Vhaeraun--he has embraced his heritage/power and seeks to bring his *spiritual sister* into the fold as well. Together, he thinks, they will gather enough power to avenge themselves on their wretched mother, Lolth--ostensibly to take her place. But will the PC (an invoker/wizard sworn to Corellon, with whom she has a close, personal, almost father/daughter relationship) side with her mad "brother" (whose goals sort of coincide with Corellon's, actually--in bringing Lolth down at least), or find a different path?
Cheers

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Originally posted by Dennis

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Originally posted by Fellfire

Sorry Erik, This is how I see you in my head whilst explaining this contest.

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At least Azzy looks majestic in that picture!

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

First one!

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Canon issue: the Sea of Fallen Stars. The FRCG tells us water levels dropped an average of 50 feet. It also tells us that part of the Sharksbane Wall is above water, and part of Myth Nantar is now above water.
But, from the Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook, we know that there's at least 300 feet of open water above Myth Nantar. And we can guesstimate approximately 80 feet of open water above the Sharksbane Wall.
So how does a 50' drop equal a drop of +300' in one area, and roughly a 100' drop in another?

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The key word here is *average.* Coupled with the seismic activity ushered in by the Spellplague, sections of Myth Nantar rose on what became small mountains partly under, partly over the sea. Very little of the city is actually exposed--the majority still rests comfortably beneath the waves, some 50-150 feet down. I think of it as similar to Athens with the water level risen to just below the big hills that feature the Acropolis and some of the higher temples.

In the long decades since the change, the people of the mostly submerged city have adjusted, and Myth Nantar has even seen an increase in worship of Sehanine Moonbow (yes, I said it*), who conduct their rituals atop the wind-swept peaks above the waves.

The Sharksbane Wall underwent similar seismic changes, and now varies from substantially beneath the water to standing a little over its surface. Sailors have to take particular care around the wall, and not just to avoid the above-water section--long stretches of the wall lie only just below the surface, and many a ship has ground to a halt on the wall's unforgiving stone.

EDIT: Corollary to the same subject:

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Originally posted by arry

3. The partial draining of the Sea of Fallen Stars which didn’t either; flood enormous parts of the Underdark, or cause drastic climatic change in surrounding lands particularly Cormyr, Sembia and the Dalelands.

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Well, it DID cause tremendous flooding in the Underdark, establishing a vast underground sea (apologies, I'm away from my books at the moment).

We don't know the exact scope of the sea draining--I would suggest that it wasn't nearly as cataclysmic as we might at first believe. Remember, we're looking at the change over a hundred years in the space of a few sentences. The seismic activity I mentioned above (triggered by the Spellplague) could very well have opened up small or substantial cracks in the floor of the Sea of Fallen Stars, allowing the water to trickle down, rather than gush. Remember, it's got a LONG way to go (I believe several miles) before it gets to the caverns of the Underdark), and it would have to be some pretty serious cracking that goes on in order to carve out passages for the water to drain down.

I picture the initial Spellplague-related seismic activity having started the cracks, and the sheer weight of the sea bore down, gradually eroding the protective earth, until it could seep down into the Underdark, where it continues to fall/drizzle down, forming a great undersea lake over the course of a century. We're told in the lore that the Sea of Fallen Stars has more or less stabilized, so maybe the water level has reached the same level as the cracks, so more water isn't flowing down. It's like the overflow hole in your sink: once the water drops below it, it stops leaking.

But let's speculate: Even if it WAS more cataclysmic, and the Spellplague tore a straight-up GOUGE in the floor of the Sea of Fallen Stars all the way down to the Underdark, then I imagine what kept it from flooding MORE (i.e. the entire Sea of Fallen Stars draining into the Underdark or at least enough to fill it up) was the same seismic activity I discussed above (sealing off the caverns even as they were being filled up) and/or a concerted effort by the denizens of the Underdark to seal off their caverns/living spaces with magic or other means in order to ensure their survival. Basically, desperate attempts to containing the vast cave-in.

One explanation is more realistic (the gradual seepage) while one is more fantastic (the epic struggle to fix a major disaster).

As for drastic climate change (or lack thereof), well, I'm not a climatologist, so I can't really give you a scientific explanation. This IS a fantasy world, though, so I think that certain things don't require too much fantasy. Maybe a long ago blessing from a forgotten god does the trick, or maybe the various gods of the Dales/Cormyr shield their flock from the worst of the changing climate. Or maybe the climate HAS changed in your game, and agriculture has shifted to accomodate it. (I personally prefer seeing Sembia become a barren place less welcoming to crops, where Chauntea's influence wanes; IMO it fits with their oppression by the Shades.)

I find that bringing too much scientific inquiry into a fantasy setting just opens a huge can of worms that binds us all up into a downward spiral of logic and doesn't leave much space to enjoy the setting.

Cheers

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One related point, though, is the failure to mention any consequences of the Sharksbane Wall being above water. As I recall, the FRCG says 10 feet of it is above water. That means that, save for a 2-mile gap, one very large portion of the Sea of Fallen Stars is entirely cut off from the rest. This would have very notable effects on shipping, and the effects of currents being cut off could dramatically impact local weather conditions. I'd imagine that the populations of animals and sentients now cut off from the rest of the sea would also be impacted.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

One related point, though, is the failure to mention any consequences of the Sharksbane Wall being above water. As I recall, the FRCG says 10 feet of it is above water. That means that, save for a 2-mile gap, one very large portion of the Sea of Fallen Stars is entirely cut off from the rest. This would have very notable effects on shipping, and the effects of currents being cut off could dramatically impact local weather conditions. I'd imagine that the populations of animals and sentients now cut off from the rest of the sea would also be impacted.

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Originally posted by Diffan

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Originally posted by Therise

I would ditch the "All elves share a common ancestor" since it's unclear if they arose through evolution or derived magically or were created beings.
Instead, say that "some believe that elves all shared a common origin realm (Faerie or Arvandor)", something like that. Less trouble.

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Quite right. I wasn't suggesting that "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED, DEAL!" but more of what you're proposing.

I'm still in the "elves arose out of Corellon's tears" camp, but that gets into the whole fantasy creationism vs. evolution debate (see what I said about bringing science into it). The facts that we have from canon are that elves are travelers from another world--i.e. not native to the Realms. My explanation simply asserts that that world is Faerie/the Feywild.

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Also, I have a deep dislike of "Fey Step" and glowy eyes junk... neither have a classic "feel" of Tolkien elves or even mythical Alfar, so those things need to be ditched or toned down in 5E.

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I can't comment on the actual mechanics of 5e, as I have no idea what they might be. But I suspect that these things will be toned down, if only to bring elves more in line with what they were like in the past. (You note how my favorite elf *doesn't* have fey step and her eyes have an alternate explanation? That's not accidental.)

[quote]While I'm not sure what they'll incorporate into the next iteration of D&D (mechanic wise), I believe the common (ie. popular belief) is that Elves and Eladrin do not evolve. There was a scribe named Lord Karsus that did an amazoing job on a fan project called Elves of Faerûn that drew heavily from existing lore that explained much of elven origins. When I get the time, I'll look for it and post a link.

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Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal

WotC is still negotiaing with the Dutch government on whether they can use the term 'polder'... once an agreement is made, the remaining gap will be filled, the water will be pumped out (those warforged need to work somewhere) and there will be new land for the new FR populations... Imagine Dragonborn with wooden shoes and lots of windmills

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Originally posted by Brix
How can a deity like Mystra be destroyed at all?
We know from other sources that the existence of a deity depends on the number of worshippers.
So even if Mystra/Midnight was somehow "killed" a new deity should pop in at once, just because of the sheer number of worshippers that exist.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

One related point, though, is the failure to mention any consequences of the Sharksbane Wall being above water. As I recall, the FRCG says 10 feet of it is above water. That means that, save for a 2-mile gap, one very large portion of the Sea of Fallen Stars is entirely cut off from the rest. This would have very notable effects on shipping, and the effects of currents being cut off could dramatically impact local weather conditions. I'd imagine that the populations of animals and sentients now cut off from the rest of the sea would also be impacted.

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Good point. I wonder if the varying height of the wall still accomodates (altered) shipping routes. For instance, if parts of the wall rose but not all of them did, that would just make some areas very treacherous, not cut off entirely?

It's also possible that enterprising shippers have destroyed parts of the wall that blocked their routes, possibly earning the wrath of the inhabitants of Seros?

This is actually a really interesting story about the unforeseen consequences of building a wall of this sort.

Cheers

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Topic: MYSTRA = DEAD? NO WAY!

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Originally posted by Brix
How can a deity like Mystra be destroyed at all?
We know from other sources that the existence of a deity depends on the number of worshippers.
So even if Mystra/Midnight was somehow "killed" a new deity should pop in at once, just because of the sheer number of worshippers that exist.

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Good point, which I can answer in a few ways:

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
1) Canonically it has been established that when one deity kills another, the victor takes the loser’s portfolio. Cyric took Leira’s power, Shar took Ilbrandul’s power, etc., etc. So maybe Cyric is holding onto Mystra’s power? (Or maybe somehow Shar got it?) That would prevent Mystra from reincarnating, since she has no power to take.

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Somehow I always thought that Mystra is outside of these pattern, since she was not only described as the seneshal of magic, but as the embodiement of magic. But ok.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
2) Immediately after Mystra died, the Spellplague happened, driving most of Mystra’s worshippers (spellcasters) mad or dead. There are still Mystran cults that persist to this day (see the novel Mistshore), but they have as-yet been unsuccessful in reviving their deity, which makes sense. A thousand people chanting to a deity named Cthulhu doesn’t make it so. (I mean, not in this edition at least!) Also see #1—all the remaining worshippers of Mystra might be unknowingly paying homage to Cyric or Shar.

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I was also thinking of a cult/inquisitors that blamed Mystra for bringing the spellplague upon the Realms.

[quote]Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
3) How do you know Mystra was destroyed at all? Maybe she’s only in hiding? Etc.

That’s it for speculation. The rest of this goes under NDA. See Ed’s novels!

Cheers

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Topic: MYSTRA = DEAD? NO WAY!

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Originally posted by Brix
How can a deity like Mystra be destroyed at all?
We know from other sources that the existence of a deity depends on the number of worshippers.
So even if Mystra/Midnight was somehow "killed" a new deity should pop in at once, just because of the sheer number of worshippers that exist.

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Good point, which I can answer in a few ways:

1) Canonically it has been established that when one deity kills another, the victor takes the loser’s portfolio. Cyric took Leira’s power, Shar took Ilbrandul’s power, etc., etc. So maybe Cyric is holding onto Mystra’s power? (Or maybe somehow Shar got it?) That would prevent Mystra from reincarnating, since she has no power to take.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

1) Canonically it has been established that when one deity kills another, the victor takes the loser’s portfolio. Cyric took Leira’s power, Shar took Ilbrandul’s power, etc., etc. So maybe Cyric is holding onto Mystra’s power? (Or maybe somehow Shar got it?) That would prevent Mystra from reincarnating, since she has no power to take.

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Except when Helm killed Mystra.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Having it be a long, treacherous 'reef' is far more interesting then a wall with a hole in it. It would also be more 'natural'. Parts of it being both under and over the surface is the way to go, IMHO.

Could you imagine being near that hole when the tides were shifting? Thats like building a canal without locks - you'd create a very treacherous situation where ships would get 'sucked' in one direction, and then later, in the other. Depending on the tidal forces involved, you could even have a waterfall-like effect during part of the day (when the deeper sea on one side runs off into the other). On the other hand, a series of broken pieces of wall (with the waterfall effect) could be almost ethereal in its beauty - imagine such a site at sunset, with hundreds of miles of 'water walls'.

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Once again, they don't need to change anything - all it it needs is some sprucing up. take the (perceived) bad points and turn them into positives.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

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Originally posted by Markustay

Having it be a long, treacherous 'reef' is far more interesting then a wall with a hole in it. It would also be more 'natural'. Parts of it being both under and over the surface is the way to go, IMHO.

Could you imagine being near that hole when the tides were shifting? Thats like building a canal without locks - you'd create a very treacherous situation where ships would get 'sucked' in one direction, and then later, in the other. Depending on the tidal forces involved, you could even have a waterfall-like effect during part of the day (when the deeper sea on one side runs off into the other). On the other hand, a series of broken pieces of wall (with the waterfall effect) could be almost ethereal in its beauty - imagine such a site at sunset, with hundreds of miles of 'water walls'.

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Gorgeous and deadly. I like it!

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Once again, they don't need to change anything - all it it needs is some sprucing up. take the (perceived) bad points and turn them into positives.

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Exactly my thinking.

Cheers

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

1) Canonically it has been established that when one deity kills another, the victor takes the loser’s portfolio. Cyric took Leira’s power, Shar took Ilbrandul’s power, etc., etc. So maybe Cyric is holding onto Mystra’s power? (Or maybe somehow Shar got it?) That would prevent Mystra from reincarnating, since she has no power to take.

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Except when Helm killed Mystra.

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Well, Helm couldn't absorb another Mystra's portfolio, because she didn't technically have it at the time. Ao was holding it in trust, and at the end of the Godswar it went to Midnight (for better or worse).

And the Time of Troubles violated all the rules--duh!

Cheers

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Originally posted by Super Wizard

Alright, going for the

Kuh...Kuh...Kuh....COMBO BREAKER!!

In 2e, Dwarves were unable to cast Arcane Spells....
in 3e, they can!

Should I post my character synopsis to appear in your upcoming novel here, or send it via email?

/victorydance

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Originally posted by Markustay

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Originally posted by Super Wizard

The Sea of Fallen Stars has tides?! How does that work?

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Why wouldn't it? Its roughly the size of The Great Lakes, and they have tides. Not very large ones, though.

I am no expert, but my assumption would be every body of water - no matter how small - would have them, BUT, the difference would become harder and harder to discern the smaller the amount of water we are discussing. the larger the body, the greater the difference and the easier to discern (measure).

So even a glass of water should have tides - good luck trying to measure that.

Also, I have a theory about Toril's moon(s), which means Faerun's tidal forces could be far more powerful then our own (but thats just a theory, mind you).

Once again, this is from a H.S. science class level of understanding of how these things work - I am far from being any sort of expert. I did look-up the fact about The Great Lakes tides, though, before posting.

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