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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 21:20:14
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I don't frequent the boards at WotC much, but occasionally poke around to see if anything new or interesting is there. At any rate, I found this interesting and long read of an article:
It talks about history of TSR and Wizards on up to current. Sounds like many of the products from our 2nd edition days we were really getting at steep discounts verse what we should have been paying. The article also discusses how MMO games, like Warcraft have eaten into the gaming market, coupled with the failures of brick and mortar bookstores, which have been the primary seller of products.
I understand the costs of making these products is most likely expensive, but can't wizards just ask ED to mail them half this house worth of content? Then again I use most my old 2nd edition boxes to contain a good 2 or 3 foot stack of unorganized handwritten notes and various other things and I thought I read once where Ed has a good hodgepodge of stuff in maybe a similar format too. So maybe it does need to be formatted, but man I drool at the thought of turning Ed loose as head of R&D.
At any rate, I thought this was a good read.
There also seems to be some hinting at big news coming this Monday, at least via EN's boards. This article is only a few days old, so I wonder if that factors into it. Here's the link: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28815367/The_Future_of_DD....
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2012 : 05:32:30
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I've read Ryan's essay before, but still manage to shake my insights with every re-read.
I've always been a little suspicious of the numbers he's reported, but then again he's trying to explain where the losses and failures went instead of trying to hide profits. And to be truthful, there are no other number sources for those of us outside the industry, Ryan's info outlines the skeletal essentials.
The contraction of TRPG interest and the splintering of the market are things which I've witnessed myself, but it's interesting to see somebody from "inside" explain why the companies reacted as they did.
Rest In Peace - Chaosium, FASA, Game Designers Workshop, Hero Games, Palladium, R. Talsorian, Steve Jackson Games, TSR, White Wolf
I'm also a little perplexed by the "Rule of 5" business model. As I understand it, the distribution network makes as much profit as the publisher - and the retailer makes twice as much? Moreover: why isn't this business rule (and the pricing it creates) revised when the business moves away from paper-moving distribution and towards eBook formats? The percentages taken from the distribution and retail network are eliminated (or at least greatly reduced), along with all the printing and cardboard costs and endless transport and storage costs, so why aren't the eBook products costing 40-80% less? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2012 : 15:17:19
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Nice to see Ryan shifting the blame a bit from 4E's shoulders. While I can't say I'm particulary happy with WotC buisness modles, it really spotlights how hard the industry (as a whole) has been hit by several factors such as MMOs, declining distributors, and overall weak economy (my own personal view).
I also think Digital is a better way to go. Getting the subscription basis all MMOs (except maybe Guild Wars) requires is a step in securing a stronger future for the TRGP industry. Also, as Ryan mentions, VTT should be the newest tool for TRPGs to utilize. That and such internet socializng aspects such as Skype. Or maybe WotC puts some cash into building a programm that connects the VTT to camera operated systems that allow full-game interaction of players and DM and the virtual table and characters. And while this might not be the most common way to play, it leaves people open to the possibility to game with others within the comforts of their own home.
It'd be nice to game with friends a few times a week whenever we get an hour or two instead of always meeting at a specific place and time every week.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2012 : 16:09:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Nice to see Ryan shifting the blame a bit from 4E's shoulders. While I can't say I'm particulary happy with WotC buisness modles, it really spotlights how hard the industry (as a whole) has been hit by several factors such as MMOs, declining distributors, and overall weak economy (my own personal view).
I also think Digital is a better way to go. Getting the subscription basis all MMOs (except maybe Guild Wars) requires is a step in securing a stronger future for the TRGP industry. Also, as Ryan mentions, VTT should be the newest tool for TRPGs to utilize. That and such internet socializng aspects such as Skype. Or maybe WotC puts some cash into building a programm that connects the VTT to camera operated systems that allow full-game interaction of players and DM and the virtual table and characters. And while this might not be the most common way to play, it leaves people open to the possibility to game with others within the comforts of their own home.
It'd be nice to game with friends a few times a week whenever we get an hour or two instead of always meeting at a specific place and time every week.
I've been saying since WotC announce a virtual tabletop that it was what was needed, more than a rules-change or anything else they could do. I think a good, rules-neutral and simple virtual tabletop could do more to revitalize the gaming industry than anything else. It doesn't need any fancy graphics or anything -- in fact, tiles, monsters, and object icons could be sold as extras, for a nominal fee.
Keep it simple with a basic whiteboard, integrated die roller and voicechat, and an option for grids or hexes, and any version of any game could use it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2012 : 16:28:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've been saying since WotC announce a virtual tabletop that it was what was needed, more than a rules-change or anything else they could do. I think a good, rules-neutral and simple virtual tabletop could do more to revitalize the gaming industry than anything else. It doesn't need any fancy graphics or anything -- in fact, tiles, monsters, and object icons could be sold as extras, for a nominal fee.
Keep it simple with a basic whiteboard, integrated die roller and voicechat, and an option for grids or hexes, and any version of any game could use it.
Well why the heck haven't you told them, huh?! I fully blame you for TRPG's downfall!!  |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2012 : 19:01:47
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I've played MMO's since the years of Everquest. Though I did recently just dump WoW this fall finally. Half a dozen level 85's and finally broke a million gold in auction hall sales and I just couldn't do it anymore. haha. But anyways, subscription based revenue models are great, but I've read that many leaders of the industry seem to think WoW and the recently released Star Wars The Old Republic (which the wife plays and is the awesome) will be the last subscription based games and the industry will be transitioning to micro-transactions for a revenue model. Dungeons and Dragons Online has this option, pay like what I think 2 bucks to get into a dungeon or something. I don't care for that type of stuff since I already shelled out 60 bucks for a game and 15/mo.
John Smedley the CEO of Sony seems to think these micro-transactions are the future of the market. Personally, I think he's the devil since his reign introduced the NGE that destroyed my beloved SWG back in the day and I also recall Everquest expansions were released unfinished and the revenue from the xpac sales were used to further develop the game. Which makes a person wonder what kind of costs involve them. Granted EQ only had 500k subscribers and WoW reached almost 13 million at its apex. BUT, if MMO's trend away from subscription based model and our beloved TRPG's take that place, I'd support it. Mainly because I don't like being nickel and dimed to death to play a game. But I'm kind of a weirdo like that so go figure. hahah.
Moving to an online venue for TRPG is an interesting thing. I think the DDI is a decent step, but maybe they truly don't have anyone who knows how to make something like this totally epic. I had pictured an online format for the Realms, where you have the giant map of Faerun and every location is hot-linked so you could drill down into regional maps. Click on Cormyr and you get the country map, click Suzail and you get a map of Suzail etc. They could also include all the lore condensed into one area.
They could also create modules a person could purchase, such as one for Cormyr or the Dalelands and that would have tons of specific lore etc. This could allow a person to buy enhanced modules for specific regions. I guess that might be viewed as a micro-transaction, but they'd need tremendous subscription numbers to simply allow 15.00 a month for something like that. Realms designers could breathe life into the Realms by creating and updating lore for various regions, updated current clack, advance the timeline of the Realms in a recognizable way etc. If they managed a virtual table top they could even run contests for subscribers to be able to play in a game DM'd by some of Wizards staff or something. Maybe simple changes or regular updates would help bring it all alive much like a virtual world. Heck they could even get the guy who voiced Gorion from the BG series or Neverwinter to do some voice-over work. Take a step from WoW and make some sweet cinematic movies for major Realms events, little mini movie downloads or something. The issue being, the Realms and other places are so huge I don't know if they would have the staff to breathe life into it and Eberron and the PoL campaign. Then again maybe it wouldn't be so bad updating the timeline and advancing the year with new info if it was done every quarter. At any rate, those are my crazy ideas. haha. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 01:41:14
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I don't accept subscription gaming, or paying to have my personal data held hostage on somebody's cloud, I never have and never will. I want to own a copy, something which I can run anywhere, anytime, any way I like - just like a real book - without having to dial up the mothership.
Maybe I'm just refusing to let go of "old" thinking in today's (and tomorrow's) world. But I know I'm not alone. I cannot say whether people with my mindset are a significant component of the market or just a grumble of grognards who form an unprofitable niche. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 05:55:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I don't accept subscription gaming, or paying to have my personal data held hostage on somebody's cloud, I never have and never will. I want to own a copy, something which I can run anywhere, anytime, any way I like - just like a real book - without having to dial up the mothership.
Maybe I'm just refusing to let go of "old" thinking in today's (and tomorrow's) world. But I know I'm not alone. I cannot say whether people with my mindset are a significant component of the market or just a grumble of grognards who form an unprofitable niche.
My personal vision of the ideal virtual tabletop doesn't have personal data held anywhere... In my mind, the virtual tabletop is nothing more than a medium for communication. Yes, it would be subscription based, but that's just to use the service -- you would be able to use it any time, with any group, playing any edition of any game.
MMOs are dominating the gaming market not because of snazzy graphics or nifty game play -- it's because they're on a computer, and a large number of people have computers. It's a device that can serve many, many functions, and gaming is just one of them. Unless you're a hardcore gamer doing four raids a week, you can play whenever you want, for however long you want, with whatever group you want. Most people don't have time to gather with their friends in real life, not as oft or as long as they'd like -- but with MMOs, that's not a factor, because there's always someone else on you can group with.
I say WotC should roll out a simple but highly functional virtual table, and tap into that. People don't have time to come to the table -- so bring the table to them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 06:12:56
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You can indeed play the MMOs whenever and as (in)frequently as you like.
My issue is that you have to pay a monthly fee to do it - and if you don't pay or play for too long then your inactive account is eventually deleted. I would never buy a book or movie or song or game or tool which requires I constantly pay a monthly surcharge for as long as I keep it. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 15:03:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
You can indeed play the MMOs whenever and as (in)frequently as you like.
My issue is that you have to pay a monthly fee to do it - and if you don't pay or play for too long then your inactive account is eventually deleted. I would never buy a book or movie or song or game or tool which requires I constantly pay a monthly surcharge for as long as I keep it.
It's a service, like cable. You can watch as much or as little TV as you want, but you're still paying that monthly fee. Ditto for your phone service, or your internet service, etc. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 15:52:46
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I think D&D missed the band-wagon - it may be too late for them to change direction and 'go digital'. RPGs are a niche market - something large corporations simply can not afford to devout all the hand-holding to. D&D WILL become a boardgame eventually, and FR just a footnote.
IMHO, of course.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I don't frequent the boards at WotC much, but occasionally poke around to see if anything new or interesting is there. At any rate, I found this interesting and long read of an article:
It talks about history of TSR and Wizards on up to current. Sounds like many of the products from our 2nd edition days we were really getting at steep discounts verse what we should have been paying. <snip>
You have NO IDEA how much that statement sticks in my craw.
So, its not that we are being ripped off now, its that they should have been bilking us all along, and now we have become "spoiled little children"? 
People are willing to pay anything if the quality is there - just look at Paizo. Their Campaign guide was probably THE most expensive of any RPG to date - and it sold like hotcakes.
Do not blame your failures on others. People pay millions for masterpieces, and yet most artists can't even get $20 bucks for a piece they created. It isn't the market, trust me - its all about talent. If you try to sell something no-one wants, don't blame people for not buying it.
I'm done. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jan 2012 15:55:40 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 16:03:28
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| 5E is on the way btw... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 16:31:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Do not blame your failures on others. People pay millions for masterpieces, and yet most artists can't even get $20 bucks for a piece they created. It isn't the market, trust me - its all about talent. If you try to sell something no-one wants, don't blame people for not buying it.
So it's the artist's own fault? All those talented writers and designers out there who can't make a living on what they do are to blame because they apparently aren't "talented" because the market doesn't tell them so?
That sounds like a pretty simplistic way of looking at it.
I think the Pathfinder example disproves (rather than supports) your argument. Whether the world is good or bad (and I happen to think it's good), you can't honestly deny that it owes a lot of its success to marketing factors: how many of its current players are there because 4e (whether the game itself, the marketing thereof, etc) pushed them straight into its welcoming arms?
"Talent" is a difficult, amorphous concept--what I might think is talented, another writer/designer/gamer might not. But sales figures and testimonials don't lie.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
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Rils
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 17:39:58
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Yep, 5e is confirmed. Interesting quote from the Enworld coverage:
quote:
The Forgotten Realms will be supported from the start, and a video game art studio from China has been hired to fully detail the Realms. I asked if going forward support would be continued for the current time after the Spellplague and the Neverwinter Campaign. A WotC spokesperson answered, "The Forgotten Realms has a rich history and we will support all of it. It is for the gamers to decide which time they would enjoy playing in." That would allow Wizards to take advantage of a massive back catalog of products; however, there are no current plans that we know of for other settings - we assume these will follow in later years.
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Dugmaren Brightmantle is my homey. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 17:53:04
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It will be interesting to see if they learn from their mistakes with 4e....
I hope they return mystra, helm, eilistraee, yondala anda small select few others.
tyr however can stay gone, he always came across as a stick in the mud and typical lawful stupid.
but
not to be pessimistic or optomistic: we shall see |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 18:13:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
It will be interesting to see if they learn from their mistakes with 4e....
I still very much think 4e was a great game--I think their "mistakes" were in how they marketed it (where they set almost entirely a negative tone) and their explanations for the changes to the 4e FR, rather than the changes themselves. I think that was the big sticking point.
quote:
I hope they return mystra, helm, eilistraee, yondala anda small select few others.
On it, obviously. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 18:22:46
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quote:
I still very much think 4e was a great game--I think their "mistakes" were in how they marketed it (where they set almost entirely a negative tone) and their explanations for the changes to the 4e FR, rather than the changes themselves. I think that was the big sticking point.
I find this insulting. You are basically saying that those of us who didn't like the new edition or the drastic changes to the Realms cannot think for ourselves and just needed a better marketing campaign to convince our weak little minds.
The mistakes are that the 4th edition rules are disliked by many AND that the changes to the Realms were drastic, unnecessary, and not in keeping with the spirit of Ed's creation.
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I still very much think 4e was a great game--I think their "mistakes" were in how they marketed it (where they set almost entirely a negative tone) and their explanations for the changes to the 4e FR, rather than the changes themselves. I think that was the big sticking point.
Honestly, I think if you take 4E rules by themselves, it was at best an average roleplaying game. It was a good game for encounter-style play, but wasn't the best for simulationist play.
The marketing didn't help, obviously. But it wasn't "great" so much as it was shocking: slaying several sacred D&D cows, boldly going in a very different direction, yes. But other games out there have done exactly the same thing, they just didn't have the moniker of D&D on them. And they weren't "great", just different and kinda average.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 19:29:31
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| I may or may not have ended up switching to 4e if they had handled the Realms with softer gloves. The Realms is why I started playing 3e and then 3.5e. And the brutal treatment of the Realms with the advent of 4e (along with the belligerent and insulting marketing campaign for 4e) is what really turned me off the the WotC brand. That (along with my love of the Pathfinder rules) is why I am hesitant to embrace them again, as a company. Though I do not depreciate the white flag that they have raised. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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My game design work:
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:26:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think D&D missed the band-wagon - it may be too late for them to change direction and 'go digital'. RPGs are a niche market - something large corporations simply can not afford to devout all the hand-holding to. D&D WILL become a boardgame eventually, and FR just a footnote.
IMHO, of course.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I don't frequent the boards at WotC much, but occasionally poke around to see if anything new or interesting is there. At any rate, I found this interesting and long read of an article:
It talks about history of TSR and Wizards on up to current. Sounds like many of the products from our 2nd edition days we were really getting at steep discounts verse what we should have been paying. <snip>
You have NO IDEA how much that statement sticks in my craw.
So, its not that we are being ripped off now, its that they should have been bilking us all along, and now we have become "spoiled little children"?
People are willing to pay anything if the quality is there - just look at Paizo. Their Campaign guide was probably THE most expensive of any RPG to date - and it sold like hotcakes.
Do not blame your failures on others. People pay millions for masterpieces, and yet most artists can't even get $20 bucks for a piece they created. It isn't the market, trust me - its all about talent. If you try to sell something no-one wants, don't blame people for not buying it.
I'm done.
I wasn't meaning to come across as insulting anyone. I only meant from what I read, was that TSR was losing money on every product sold and for some reason they didn't balance the price of their product with cost of product creation and other variables in mind so that they could make a profit. In hindsight, the disfunctional management at TSR benefited us as players and DMs, because any normal business would have had their break-even point already set and their prices would have risen to compensate. Whether people pay the extra price is a different story tho. ;)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 00:06:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
It will be interesting to see if they learn from their mistakes with 4e....
I still very much think 4e was a great game--I think their "mistakes" were in how they marketed it (where they set almost entirely a negative tone) and their explanations for the changes to the 4e FR, rather than the changes themselves. I think that was the big sticking point.
quote:
I hope they return mystra, helm, eilistraee, yondala anda small select few others.
On it, obviously.
Cheers
never said it was bad... but my gripe still stands what they did to the realms... ah never mind.
4e has its good points as it's bad just like anyother.
Come on Helm!!! |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 03:39:24
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I really wanted to bow-out of this thread, but I feel I need to respond since I have apparently insulted someone I like and respect.
@Erik: I was specifically talking about the lackluster release of the 4e rules and 4e FR setting. I have had almost no problem with any of the 4e novels I have read thus-far (which, admittedly, aren't many).
People are either 'WOWed', or underwhelmed when they first encounter something - first IMPRESSIONS are extremely important. Everything that comes after doesn't count half as much as that. You only get one chance to knock people's socks off: Its a cold cruel world, but that's how it works.
Is it possible to come back from that? YES, but it takes some kind of business genius. Apple did it - lets see if Monte Cook is another Steve Jobs. I have high hopes - what can I say, I'm an optimist.
And I apologize for that last one - had a rough day yesterday, and was in a pretty foul mood, and that statement just hit me all wrong (like a slap in the face) - it infers that we were all somehow 'getting away with something' for years (at least to me, in my tired and grouchy mood).
Sorry.
EDIT: Just read the second part of your post; yes, marketing (and the market place) has a LOT to do with things, and had a lot to do with what has happened (eed I use the word 'lackluster' again?) I still fondly remember the 6' cardboard Redgars at the book and hobby stores, all the ads, the 6PM news reports (on regular network news, not that local crap) that covered "D&D's 3rd edition". The fanfare was amazing.
4e came in with a whimper. 
Perhaps, had things been done better (and they didn't stick us with the 'century of emptiness'), things may have gone very differently... who knows? Maybe it all comes down to business-savvy after all.
PF/Golarion is great... but its not The Realms.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jan 2012 04:30:45 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 04:58:51
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I disagree with the 4E whimper notion.
4E development was confirmed and announced years before its actual release. Preview sourcebooks describing game development "behind the scenes" were sold. Interviews and demos hyped 4E all over the conventions and internet. Not to mention all those great little DDI videos. People talked and argued incessantly about 4E rules for a long time before they ever actually saw a copy or could play it. No big surprise that copies of the 4E pdfs were pirated by the millions within mere minutes of their release.
So when 4E arrived after much fanfare there was hushed and reverent awe, there was the industrious silence of gamers who were busily playing the game, there were flames and frustrations from those would weren't, there were even incoherent screams of unbridled rage from those declared their hateful unacceptance and refusal towards 4E. I can imagine someone buying one of those hardcover sourcebooks and saying "wtf, this isn't 4E, this is some $%^@# book advertising how they're gonna make it". I can imagine someone buying the full set of core books then realizing he has to buy at least two more full sets of core books to actually have the full set. I've personally witnessed the endless confusion, arrogance, and outrage of people learned in 4E lore who are confronted those learned in pre-4E lore (who as a group are no less confused, arrogant, and outraged).
Compare this against 3E. I'd made it a point to check out my local game stores once or twice per month, I routinely purchased every new 2E product on their shelves, I kept myself informed well enough of TSR's (WotC's) product line. One day I walked in and they said "hey, look, there's a third edition now". I resisted buying it at first, my focus was collecting select 2E titles instead, by the time I'd gotten around to 3E there was a 3.5E and d20 and OGL and piles of other confusing terminology from a hundred different companies where I expected to simply see my D&D game. I had to do my own research to find answers, rather than have advertising bring them to me. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 04:59:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I wasn't meaning to come across as insulting anyone. I only meant from what I read, was that TSR was losing money on every product sold and for some reason they didn't balance the price of their product with cost of product creation and other variables in mind so that they could make a profit. In hindsight, the disfunctional management at TSR benefited us as players and DMs, because any normal business would have had their break-even point already set and their prices would have risen to compensate. Whether people pay the extra price is a different story tho.
I wasn't in the least bit insulted by you - I was annoyed by that particular statement within the article.
And there is more then one way to make money with a product or IP - perhaps they weren't as 'stupid' as the current team is trying to make former employees out to be. For instance, fast-food places don't make anything off of their 'dollar menu', but they make about 98% profit off of the soda you buy to wash it down. Also, TSR didn't need nearly as much profit to stay afloat as WotC, and the base-prices were raised exponentially when they became part of Hasbro, because they are now being judged against things like Monopoly and GI Joe. Thats like comparing the amount of D&D lore I've created with Ed Greenwood, in which case I don't stand a snowballs chance in hell.
Its not that they were selling things too cheaply (as that article falsely implies), but rather, they need more money to make shareholders happy. It is possible for a company to grow so large they price themselves right out of the market (overhead is murder). Do you know why automobiles cost so much? Because CEO's need 600 million dollar bonuses. Of course, it could just be that we were under-paying for cars thirty years ago (using their logic).
And this isn't completely directed at Hasbro either - this is what it has come down to for everyone. The 'litte guy' suffers because the rich simply can't get rich enough. Somethings gotta give soon, and personally, I think a silly game and fantasy setting are the least of our worries. When they says it 'costs more' to produce something, what they are really saying is that THEY need to make more money. Its the same thing - its all in how you word it. How often do the guys in the factory get 600 million dollar bonuses? They don't - they stand in food-lines in China.
And quality employees get laid-off, while the brass just &*!#-off. Thats how they stay in the black. Guess what folks? Free-market capitalism is broken, and there ain't no fixin' it. I can't afford to put Ring-Dings in my kids lunch anymore, while my congressman gets caught with a hooker... again.
Keep on Rockin' in the free world. The ride is almost over.
Angst over a game? Hardly. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jan 2012 05:01:59 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 05:16:09
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Sorry if this is turning into *sigh* yet another thread of "My way to play fairy elvs is better than your way" but this is just how I feel. 4E really struck the creative, energetic, and gamists chords within me. It's what I now define as pure characterization. At 4E launch, there was a lot that kept me skeptic. Classes reduced to 8, new races, new mechanics, new ways of looking at things. And after playing for a long time, with tweaking my own ideas and seeing what came out through the months, it only got better IMO.
Now, I feel 4E got a horrible rep right from the start. With a lot of mistakes on the marketing end and the promises WotC made (and still haven't really kept *cough*VTT*cough*) in additon to something that wasn't D&D: Saga or D&D: v3.75 there was a lot of rage. But really, keeping with it through the end, I've seen this system grow so much and cover more character ideas than I could play in a lifetime. In what other system could a player be a werewolf (or in my case, werebear) Berserker, polymorph into said creature and still be equally powerful and useful to your other players at 1st level?! It just can't happen without Level Adjustments, DM approval, and a build that doesn't hit that potential until well into 7th or 8th level.
Having signed up for the Playtest, I'm hoping to keep a lof of these aspect still going strong in 5E. But as I delve deeper and deeper into the Legends and Lore columns, I'm fearing that this sort of creativity will be suppressed for simplicity. Keeping everything basic (5 races, 4 classes, possibly some skills, some feats, no tactical movement or abilities) with a heavier focus on customization at later levels or with future supplements. Personally, I can't get behind this mentality. I like options, lots of options. I like being able to play "Off-the-Wall" base characters. I like things being relatively balanced so that there doesn't need to be an arms race for magical items JUST to keep on-par with classes that can do that automatically.
If these are aspects D&D is going back to, I can't follow. I won't follow. I won't go back to Thac0 or Base Attack Bonuses with iterative attacks with varying modifiers and varying damage rolls with varying effects that target each one for some semi-belief that this better illustrates verisimilitude. Where mages run out of spells 2nd battle in and resort to crossbows or having 4 HP to get them through 1st level. Having clerics spend whole turns just to facilitate something they're supposed to do with ease. No, if I want that I'll go play v3.5 or Pathfinder or d20 Modern. I don't want 5E to fall into these traps.
Sorry if this craps in people's Cheerios or puts a downer on some hope that 5E will be the miraculous edition that bind everyone together but I just don't see it. There was this guy who made something that binds people together "And he does not Share Power!"
This isn't any sort of attack or insult or whatever people feel about their particular edition or system. Play whatever the heck you want. How they handle FR is going to be a big question, one that deserves good answers, but I just can't put in that much devotion anymore. I'll still support it, I'll still read the great novels, and I'll probably pilfer what I find interesting with whatever they roll out with. But really, for all the crappy hoop-la that's been going on for over the past 3 1/2 years, I'm just done. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 05:34:19
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Hey, I wouldn't go back to THAC0 either, and actually I never did go that route. And vancian magic again, with "oops, you're out of your two spells, break out the crossbow for the rest of the day" no thanks. I wouldn't be happy with that at all.
Don't let one day of a thousand internet fanboys/girls each complaining about what they want (OR ELSE!) get you down. Have you met any of them in real life? People always over-exaggerate, over-extend, and over-whine about the tiniest details, when in real life they'd be happy with a coke and a dollar in their pocket.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 09:30:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I'm fearing that this sort of creativity will be suppressed for simplicity. Keeping everything basic (5 races, 4 classes, possibly some skills, some feats, no tactical movement or abilities)
Excellent that is just what I want to hear, a back to basics game system that makes it easy for new entrants to join in and play and allows the players and DM's their own creativity to enhance the game the way they want to rather than being told how to do it by selling 100+ splat books with kits/prestige classes and more rules to complicate the game further.
At its roots D&D is a game of imagination, your imagination, that why TSR used the 'products of you imagination' tagline on their products.
Will my desire for something akin to OD&D happen, of course not, it doesn't make financial sense to only sell a rules set to one person (the DM) from a gaming group of 5. So Hasbro will continue to produce splat books to sell to the players as well as the DM. I can only hope that what is produced is a better gaming resource that is usable for all in the D&D group rather than what became the bloat of 3.X with a dozen new prestige classes and 20 pages of feats/tactics etc in every new book. I don't buy books for mechanics, I buy them for inspiration.
As always these are just my thoughts and as everyone knows, the D&D fanbase is split in terms of preferred choice of edition to play, but we should not be split on wanting the game to continue to flourish for many many more years to come.
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 14:38:14
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Excellent that is just what I want to hear, a back to basics game system that makes it easy for new entrants to join in and play and allows the players and DM's their own creativity to enhance the game the way they want to rather than being told how to do it by selling 100+ splat books with kits/prestige classes and more rules to complicate the game further.
At its roots D&D is a game of imagination, your imagination, that why TSR used the 'products of you imagination' tagline on their products.
Will my desire for something akin to OD&D happen, of course not, it doesn't make financial sense to only sell a rules set to one person (the DM) from a gaming group of 5. So Hasbro will continue to produce splat books to sell to the players as well as the DM. I can only hope that what is produced is a better gaming resource that is usable for all in the D&D group rather than what became the bloat of 3.X with a dozen new prestige classes and 20 pages of feats/tactics etc in every new book. I don't buy books for mechanics, I buy them for inspiration.
As always these are just my thoughts and as everyone knows, the D&D fanbase is split in terms of preferred choice of edition to play, but we should not be split on wanting the game to continue to flourish for many many more years to come.
Cheers
Damian
See, I'd like a balance. Do I feel the need to have every nichè aspect of the game verified by rules? No, not in the least. I'm all about reflavoring, refulffing and changing things to better suit my needs. Yet I feel some mechanical backing is required, at least to grab people's simulationist chord. In my example of the were-bear Berserker I mentioned above, could I just play a fighter and just say: "Hey, I'm a were-bear and when I get really mad I turn into a hybrid form that is terrifying to see." It adds flavor but it's a bit hollow in actual application. What I find funny is that these sorts of things were common at 4E's debut. With no Druid, Bard, Monk, etc.. it was said to just wing it with imagination. It's do-able but without any sort of backing in some mechanical form then it's just me spouting off stuff. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 16:54:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
It's do-able but without any sort of backing in some mechanical form then it's just me spouting off stuff.
purely curious here:
Why do you (as the player of said werebear berserker) and your DM need any mechanical back up allowing you to play and/or justifying your decision to allow a standard fighter this special ability. I am assuming that if your DM is ok with it, then you can just run with it?
I would understand the dilemma of no official mechanic if you are taking the character into another DM's game with your made up rule and no kit/class combo you can refer to in an official book. I would suspect your new DM would likely be suspicious of the character/challenge the reasons why you should be allowed to play something so far out of kilter with the usual classes allowed.
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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