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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 14:13:45
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Hello...
I was just looking through book of vile darkness and saw that Asmodeus is a weekling. If he is sopposed to be the baddes of them all how come he is so fragile??? CR 35
I once saw a whrite up of him in something called Monster Aid (Book of Devils) where he was a CR 44 bad mother, with over 1000hp
Which one is more acurate to canon ???
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 14:19:33
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| that might have been a wrong word. But I just thought that the most powerful devil would have more than 600 hp and the power to take many a wyrm down. It does not look like it! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 14:22:39
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This is how he is portraited in Book of Devils!
ASMODEUS (Arch-Devil)
Large Outsider (Evil, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 66d8+858 (1155 hp)
Initiative: +11 (+7 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 40 ft, fly 60 ft (good)
AC: 43 (-1 size, +7 Dex, +27 natural)
Attacks: Ruby Rod +86/+81/+76/+71/+66/+61 melee; or slam +81
melee
Damage: Ruby Rod 1d10+21 and serious wounds; or slam 1d6+16
Face/Reach: 5 ft by 5 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, spells, psionics, gaze attacks,
Ruby Rod of Asmodeus, summon devils
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 40/+4, SR 33, regeneration 30,
devil qualities, see in darkness, telepathy
Saves: Fort +48, Ref +42, Will +47
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 24, Con 36, Int 34, Wis 34, Cha 42
Skills: Bluff +82, Concentration +79, Diplomacy +82, Disguise +82,
Gather Information +82, Heal +78, Jump +82, Knowledge (arcana) +78,
Knowledge (Hell’s politics) +78, Knowledge (history) +78, Knowledge
(nobility) +78, Knowledge (planes) +78, Knowledge (religion) +78,
Listen +78, Move Silently +73, Search +78, Sense Motive +78, Scry
+78, Spellcraft +78, Spot +78
Feats: Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Dodge,
Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Expertise, Great Cleave, Improved
Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Maximize Spell, Mobility,
Power Attack, Silent Spell, Sunder
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary or troupe (2-5 pit fiends)
Challenge Rating: 44
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: —
Asmodeus, the Overlord of Hell, rules the dukes and arch-devils by
might and wit. Of all the arch-devils he is the most cunning and artful.
His mighty palace rests upon the floor of the lowest rift in Nessus, Hell’s
ninth, and bottommost plane.
Asmodeus appears as a very handsome human standing about 13
feet tall. His hair is black, as is his goatee; his eyes burn red. Small
horns jut from his forehead.
COMBAT
Asmodeus will attack first using his gaze weapon, then his spells and
spell-like abilities, followed up by his Ruby Rod. If things go against him
(not likely) or he becomes bored with combat, he will summon other
devils to finish the combat, while he attends to business elsewhere.
Spell-Like Abilities: At will—animate dead, blasphemy, charm
person, comprehend languages, daylight, desecrate, detect good,
detect magic, detect thoughts, dispel magic, fireball, geas/quest, hold
person, hold monster, ice storm, improved invisibility, magic circle
against good, major image, mass charm, polymorph self, produce
flame, pyrotechnics, raise dead, read magic, see invisible, suggestion,
teleport without error (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), unholy aura,
unhallow, wall of fire, wall of ice, and wish; 1/day—greater restoration,
meteor swarm (any), shapechange and symbol (any). These abilities
meteor swarm (any), shapechange and symbol (any). These abilities
are as the spells cast by a 20th-level sorcerer (save DC 26 + spell
level).
Spells: Asmodeus casts arcane spells as a 20th-level sorcerer (save
DC 26 + spell level) and divine spells as a 20th-level cleric (save DC 23
+ spell level). He has access to the domains of Evil, Knowledge, Law,
and Strength.
Psionics (Sp): At will—astral projection, charm monster, deeper
darkness, detect evil, detect law, dimensional anchor, dispel good,
levitate, and protection from good. These abilities are as the spells cast
by a 20th-level sorcerer (save DC 26 + spell level).
Gaze Attacks (Su): Asmodeus has three different gaze weapons. He
may use one each round. Each gaze weapon has a range of 30 feet
and functions as a spell cast by a 20th-level sorcerer. The save DC for
each gaze attack is 59.
Chill: This functions as the slow spell, Will negates.
Fear: This functions as the fear spell, Will negates.
Fear and Weakness: This causes an opponent to be affected by a
fear spell and a ray of enfeeblement, Fortitude negates.
Ruby Rod of Asmodeus: Asmodeus carries a glowing ruby rod that
has the following powers.
?? Acts as a rod of absorption (Rods, rod of absorption, page
196 in the DMG).
?? Functions as a +5 greatclub.
?? Any creature touched is affected as if by inflict serious
wounds as cast by a 20th-level cleric (3d8+15 points of
damage).
?? Once per round, it may fire a ray of acid (24d4 points of
acid damage), frost (12d6 points of cold damage), or
lightning (24d8 points of electrical damage) to a range of 60
feet; Reflex save (DC 20) for half. Each may be used a total
of three times per day.
Summon Devils (Sp): Three times per day Asmodeus can
automatically summon 1d2 cornugons or gelugons, or 1d4 pit fiends.
Regeneration (Ex): Asmodeus takes normal damage from holy and
blessed weapons of at least +4 enchantment.
Devil Qualities (Ex): Immune to fire and poison; cold and acid
resistance 20.
See in Darkness (Su): Can see perfectly in darkness of any kind,
even that created by deeper darkness spells.
Telepathy (Su): Asmodeus can communicate telepathically with any
creature within 100 feet that has a language. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 19:12:14
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I confess, I can't imagine ever using that many dice. Which is why I only have Lords of the Nine via plot device. That and it's difficult to imagine the Lord of Hell throwing down with the PCs.
I mean, doesn't he have minions for that?
He's not Sauron. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 20:57:04
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| No rules write-up of an entity like that is definitive: there are going to be as many of them as there are conceptions of the level scale, individual designers' preferences, and needs of individual campaigns. And this was explicitly acknowledged in the Realms, where the nature of characters is inherently uncertain, detailed game stats were heavily disclaimed against and only started being published out of actual or perceived demand. The Book of Devils write-up looks like inanely inflated rules-****ery to me. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 21:57:25
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I think that using the 2ed Guide to Hell as a guide,
the 3ed version of Asmodeus is best seen as an aspect
or avatar as opposed to his real form. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 00:40:50
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
I think that using the 2ed Guide to Hell as a guide,
the 3ed version of Asmodeus is best seen as an aspect
or avatar as opposed to his real form.
The only issue I have with this statement, is that the 3e Guide to Hell relies more on the Christian-based theology for Asmodeus. Thus, it can be somewhat difficult to reconcile what was presented in that tome, with what we know of Asmodeus and his deeds, now.
I'm not saying that it's wrong, of course. Merely that the alternate details for Asmodeus presented elsewhere -- like the majority of 2e PLANESCAPE material -- would be better suited to the task of assigning stats for the Lord of the Ninth. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Jan 2012 00:49:24 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 00:46:24
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I believe that Ed had once explained that the stats presented in the OGB (for NPCs) were stats designed with the idea in mind the PCs would just be starting out, or at the most, be low-middling levels. He also explained (IIRC) that if your group was not just starting out you should adjust all the NPC levels accordingly, and also adjust them as the campaign progresses, so that they are still of proportionate level to the PCs to still present a challenge.
In other words, a level 17 Manshoon would be fine if you were just starting a new campaign, but by the time your PCs were level 18, Manshoon should be somewhere around level 30. Not all the NPCs need level this way, but it should be so for the major ones, and especially the ones that your PCs will interact with. The levels were set that way as a suggestion, not as fact-set-in-stone, and the power-span between the PCs and those NPCs should stay fairly equidistant.
So, Nicolai, are you looking for an Arch-fiend skin to match the terrasque-hide boot on your other foot? 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jan 2012 00:48:18 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 01:38:04
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First of all it was not that any PC were to face him... Not at all. It was a reqeust for information. I know that everything is up to the DM, who can if he likes make him CR 1000, but I would like to have some form of accurate write up of him. Just as I believe in the write up of a golden dragon great wyrm in MM, i want to believe en the writeup of Asmadeus, Mashoon and so forth.
It is quite evident though, that the authors of these books did not do the charismatic characters justise, and none of them is powerful enough if you ask me. Elminster, Larloch and so forth...
But as ive said, I want to believe that was is written is canon and that canon should be the truth. Even though I need to fit that truth into "my" realm... truth none the less.
So am I to believe that the Lord of all Devils, The Arch-Duke of all Arch-Dukes the proverbial Satan of FR, is no more powerful than CR 35?
How can he command so much respect... ??? |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 03 Jan 2012 01:42:19 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 01:50:01
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| It's not just that 'your campaign may vary'. Stats aren't canonical: they aren't facts about the world, they're individual authors' or editors' suggestions in the context of individual books. In principle, the levels given for characters in Realms sourcebooks are only rule-of-thumb conveniences, as discussed in the DM's Sourcebook of the Realms; in practice, stats given vary far too much between different books, authors, rulesets, years and so on to take them literally. The Book of Vile Darkness isn't a Realms source, and the stats there are for the purposes of that book and the kind of campaigns it talks about. |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 03:23:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
First of all it was not that any PC were to face him... Not at all. It was a reqeust for information. I know that everything is up to the DM, who can if he likes make him CR 1000, but I would like to have some form of accurate write up of him. Just as I believe in the write up of a golden dragon great wyrm in MM, i want to believe en the writeup of Asmadeus, Mashoon and so forth.
It is quite evident though, that the authors of these books did not do the charismatic characters justise, and none of them is powerful enough if you ask me. Elminster, Larloch and so forth...
But as ive said, I want to believe that was is written is canon and that canon should be the truth. Even though I need to fit that truth into "my" realm... truth none the less.
So am I to believe that the Lord of all Devils, The Arch-Duke of all Arch-Dukes the proverbial Satan of FR, is no more powerful than CR 35?
How can he command so much respect... ???
It is just an aspect. The REAL Asmodeus is equal in pawer to an Overdeity. Keep that in mind.
Also, the stats that are published are for the most common games. It is more likely that a game will be played pre-epic than epic, that's why CR 35 is all that's needed.
There's a site, DiceFreaks, that makes very good homebrew mechanics and lore for their own campaign setting. They restated the Hell and it's denizens. Asmodeus for example was CR 81 the last time I checked (in an older version), and it still was just the aspect. I suggest you go look it up.
Here you have their newest (I think) writeup of Asmodeus. |
Edited by - Imp on 03 Jan 2012 03:38:14 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 06:12:13
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quote:
I'm not saying that it's wrong, of course. Merely that the alternate details for Asmodeus presented elsewhere -- like the majority of 2e PLANESCAPE material -- would be better suited to the task of assigning stats for the Lord of the Ninth.
Asmodeus didn't exist in Planescape. They'd removed the Archdevils for that setting and Demon princes - instead letting the Pit Fiends and Balor run things.
Which was...bizarre. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 07:36:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
I'm not saying that it's wrong, of course. Merely that the alternate details for Asmodeus presented elsewhere -- like the majority of 2e PLANESCAPE material -- would be better suited to the task of assigning stats for the Lord of the Ninth.
Asmodeus didn't exist in Planescape. They'd removed the Archdevils for that setting and Demon princes - instead letting the Pit Fiends and Balor run things.
Which was...bizarre.
Errr... He may not have always been directly named, but the Lord of the Ninth was a well-referenced entity occupying Nessus, as per [among other PS sources] the PLANESCAPE Planes of Law boxed set. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Jan 2012 07:37:51 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 07:56:50
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| Many pages of 2E Planescape lore were written about Asmodeus, without obfuscating his name. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 08:45:29
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| I must have missed them. I was really annoyed by the fact they kept alluding to Archdemons left and right but pretended they were a big mystery. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 14:56:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I must have missed them. I was really annoyed by the fact they kept alluding to Archdemons left and right but pretended they were a big mystery.
You might be focusing on the bits of PLANESCAPE lore which often played up the role of the Dark Eight -- the so-called Pit-Fiend Ministers of Hell and "Generals" of the Blood War. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 15:31:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
The REAL Asmodeus is equal in pawer to an Overdeity. Keep that in mind.
Not even close 
If so the multiverse would look very diffrent than it does. With 4e he "only" managed to obtain godhood at last. |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 17:04:25
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
The REAL Asmodeus is equal in pawer to an Overdeity. Keep that in mind.
Not even close
If so the multiverse would look very diffrent than it does. With 4e he "only" managed to obtain godhood at last.
And yet it is so. Remember: There's always a bigger fish. He didn't conquer the multiverse yet, because the Heavens also have such powerful rulers, there's Ao, Ao's master, other gods like Ao, and the rumors that Asmodeus is still weakened from his fall from Heaven (when he was cast away from it, his fall created the Nine Hells, didn't you know?). |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 22:02:44
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I just go with Asmodeus being a Archdemon.
It's simple and avoids the "More Awesome than you" contests that tend to form in these things.
"Asmodeus is the most evil guy ever!"
"Oh yeah, well he's not as evil as SHAR!"
"Bane will get you both!"
"Then Cyric will smack you all down!"
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 22:05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I just go with Asmodeus being a Archdemon.
It's simple and avoids the "More Awesome than you" contests that tend to form in these things.
"Asmodeus is the most evil guy ever!"
"Oh yeah, well he's not as evil as SHAR!"
"Bane will get you both!"
"Then Cyric will smack you all down!"
And then, The Undertaker will take them all to the grave  |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 09:39:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
And yet it is so. Remember: There's always a bigger fish. He didn't conquer the multiverse yet, because the Heavens also have such powerful rulers, there's Ao, Ao's master, other gods like Ao, and the rumors that Asmodeus is still weakened from his fall from Heaven (when he was cast away from it, his fall created the Nine Hells, didn't you know?).
I think you are confusing much of the lore there.
Ao is no god of the Heaven. Ao is the (only) overgod of the FR who created it all. There are no other overgods besides him in FR.
Besides how the Nine Hells where created or what Asmodeus' origin really is we don't know exactly because there are diffrent Books telling diffrent stories each only beeing a myth.
The only thing we really know as a fact is that big A only become a god recently after consuming Azuths essence. I'm not sure if he is a greater diety but I think so. Nevertheless he is far far away from beeing an overgod (like all the other gods too). |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 15:51:58
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I didn't say Ao is god of Heaven. You're confusing things.
And Asmodeus (his original form, not the aspect) is as powerful as an overdeity, NOT AN OVERDEITY. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 16:20:15
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I'm sure you have some sources confirming this  |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 16:21:03
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I do not think Asmodeus ever was as powerful as a god, much less an overdeity. He was a high-ranked angel in the service of the gods of Law. I think I read that 4th ed lore revealed that he was helped by Grazzt in tricking them into giving him dominion over the souls of the wretched. We saw what he did when he attained godhood, he ended the Blood War with a flick of the wrist, something he would have done even before his fall from heaven if he had the power back then.
Sorry Imp, I usually do not go into "I'm right, you're wrong" territory, but I really think that Asmodeus was never nearly as powerful as you claim he is. |
Edited by - Kilvan on 04 Jan 2012 17:02:08 |
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Pazuzu
Seeker
Germany
61 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 16:33:10
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| I agreewith my previous speakers. Stats are just a help for DMs from the authors. In fact look at Drizzt stat block in FRCS... it's one of the weakest builds I can imagine, but he totally rocks everything in the books. So, why do we need stats? Well, for the mechanics, but totally not for the story! If I create a NPC I have an idea where he comes from, his race, gender, etc. Maybe I also know his CR or his class(es), but that's most of it. How cares about skills and feats? :-D |
May your dice obey your will. - Gary Gygax (*1938 - †2008) |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 16:43:49
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| You guys think about the stated up Asmodeus. I'm talking about the REAL Asmodeus. There are no stats for him and he's very powerful, like an overdeity. I'm basing my information on books that talk about Asmodeus. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 16:51:39
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Yeah well there aren't any stats for Mirt too so I guess he must be as powerfull as an overdeity too.
I'm basing my information on books that talk about Mirt  |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 16:56:20
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Yeah well there aren't any stats for Mirt too so I guess he must be as powerfull as an overdeity too.
There is, in the 3e FRCS. I agree with your point though. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 16:59:11
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| Damn |
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Topic |
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Question about Lord of the ninth
Topic Locked
