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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 19:53:10
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Yeah well there aren't any stats for Mirt too so I guess he must be as powerfull as an overdeity too.
I'm basing my information on books that talk about Mirt 
Please, get your facts straight before you start making such silly arguments. Even if there wouldn't be stats for Mirt (but there are), the books you're basing your info on are quite clear what Mirt's abilities and power is. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 20:55:22
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| Maybe you are reading the wrong ones? ;) |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 21:29:30
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Maybe you are reading the wrong ones? ;)
Maybe you are just being wrong? Admit your mistake like a man. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 21:42:07
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| So at which level exactly did you take the Internet Troll "Prestige" Class? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 22:19:34
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Alright, folks, I think we've followed this particular path far enough. Please get back on topic, or this scroll will be closed.  |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 02:52:44
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The power of a deity, primal, immortal, eternal, archfiend, or other individual of the sort cannot be measured with a simple number, X > Y is not an absolute comparison, divine ranks are not universally applied and there are all sorts of entities shoehorned in between positions in the "official" godly ranking schemes.
Asmodeus may or may not be the most "powerful" evil being in existence, but it's impossible to say and it's not really a meaningful statement in any event ... the real question is how much power (ie: ability to control, manipulate, change, and affect his environment) Asmodeus has in any particular corner of the cosmos. It's obvious that he is the supreme and unchallenged power within his own domain, the layer of Nessus in Baator; he has become known to the Realms as an interloping Faerūnian god (having absorbed Azuth's divine "power"); he is somewhat "powerful" in the Eberron and Greyhawk (and "core" 4E) settings; he is merely another pimped up archfiend in Mystara and a few random modules.
Asmodeus might, for example, be considerably more powerful than Shar and Mystra combined within Baator, while also being considerably weaker than most intermediate gods within the Realms, while being hardly more than a particularly menacing devil any mortal could summon within the Greyhawk and Mystara worlds.
I doubt very much that Asmodeus is as "powerful" in scope as Ao, although Guide to Hell states that he was once known as Ahriman, half of the primordial Ouroborus World Serpent entity who formed the planes themselves (my brief summary here). Other sources state that Asmodeus is just the most recent occupant of his Hellish station, having displaced (and assumed the identity of) even older archdevils who held his throne before. |
[/Ayrik] |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 09:00:39
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Yes good points.
Now that he is a greater Deity he could definatly be more powerfull than Shar especially when add all his assetes as the ruler of hell, even outside of his domain.
As Mystra beeing death currently hes definatly more powerfull 
But I doubt that he was more powerfull before becoming a god. In the Elminster series when Mystra went to hell to save El Asmodeus waited in his Castle and sent minions after minions against her which she didn't had any problem annihilateing. I don't know if she would have get tired sometime and he was just waiting for this moment, but if he would have been personally more powerfull than her I think he would have attacked her himself alongside his minions (maybe forcing the other archdevils to attack with him so they can't plot against him during the fight).
Although if he had as much power as a god before I guess he would have pushed the Abyss away for a long time. |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 09:52:03
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His aspect wasn't strong enough to be a threat to Mystra. He didn't want to make himself vulnerable precisely because the rest of the archdevils would jump on the occasion to tople him.
And again, the REAL Asmodeus is immensely powerful, but he's still wounded and weak from his great fall that created Hell, that's why he isn't dealing with things personally. And even if he did, he would get swarmed by all the other big cats like all the good gods, Ao, Celestial Habdomad, ect. He's untouchable in his lair on Avernus so he doesn't leave it. That's why he created the aspect in the first place. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 13:28:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
His aspect wasn't strong enough to be a threat to Mystra. He didn't want to make himself vulnerable precisely because the rest of the archdevils would jump on the occasion to tople him.
And again, the REAL Asmodeus is immensely powerful, but he's still wounded and weak from his great fall that created Hell, that's why he isn't dealing with things personally. And even if he did, he would get swarmed by all the other big cats like all the good gods, Ao, Celestial Habdomad, ect. He's untouchable in his lair on Avernus so he doesn't leave it. That's why he created the aspect in the first place.
Again, do you have any sources for any of this? If not, it is an interesting theory, but not a fact. I still think it is more plausible that even at his prime, he was no match for a deity such as Mystra. The Gods are letting him live because of Balance issues (he is after all preventing massive demon invasions on the material plane). Asmodeus is letting the gods live... because he couldn't do anything about it anyway. Now that he IS a god, that will probably change.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 13:59:22
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My PCs had a fun conversation about Asmodeus and we're currently going to use his True Name to "beat him."
Basically the gist of their conversation was that they actually CAN'T beat him since the most powerful wizard in history, Larloch or Karsus, is like the most powerful insect ever to a god.
(more or less quoting Doctor Manhattan)
They just need to figure out whether they can trick or sneak by him to do their ritual. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 01:03:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Again, do you have any sources for any of this? If not, it is an interesting theory, but not a fact. I still think it is more plausible that even at his prime, he was no match for a deity such as Mystra. The Gods are letting him live because of Balance issues (he is after all preventing massive demon invasions on the material plane). Asmodeus is letting the gods live... because he couldn't do anything about it anyway. Now that he IS a god, that will probably change.
Of course I have sources. Books that talk about Asmodeus. And of course those are no facts. We never going to get FACTS about such mysterious individuals like Asmodeus. That's the part of the fun, you never know what is true and you can always come up with your own theory about him. But regardless of facts, my informations are the official things we know about Asmodeus.
I don't really care about 4th ed, but I'll tell you this: The deity Asmodeus is just an aspect. How do I know that? Simple. He's a deity in FR, but in other settings he isn't (but of course you can houserule that he is). If the original Asmodeus would be the deity then he would be a deity in every setting, because there's only one true Asmodeus, but he's got an aspect for every Nine Hells that are in existence. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 01:15:16
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Different universes don't necessarily exist in the new timeline.
It's also possible they're just parallel Asmodeuses just like in Star Trek has multiple Kirks across different realities. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 01:25:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Different universes don't necessarily exist in the new timeline.
You're talking about 4th ed, right? I don't acknowledge 4th ed. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 01:37:09
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quote:
You're talking about 4th ed, right? I don't acknowledge 4th ed.
Well in 3E, the events of "Die Vecna Die" may have split the Multiverses so Asmodeus' aspect in the Realms is separate from all other aspects. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 02:09:12
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Isn't that another way of saying what I already said about Asmodeus?
1E/2E, 3E/3.5E, and 4E are essentially different games. Their settings are "based on" the Realms and the D&D universe but are largely incompatible with and contradict each other. Asmodeus is a "background" character who just happens to exist in them all, but he cannot be the same Asmodeus or have uniform levels of absolute and comparative power each time. "Power" itself is a vague qualifier, he has more power than many gods while in Nessus yet he is weaker than the same gods in other places. The gods he is compared against also have "power" which varies, they are always most powerful within their own domain and portfolio, yet weaker when elsewhere. Insofar as the Realms go, Asmodeus assimilated Azuth's divine power, so it seems reasonable that he is as powerful as Azuth was - unless canon already dictates otherwise, in which case I don't understand what this discussion is attempting to determine. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 02:36:15
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Not meaning to throw a wrench into the discussion, but Die Vecna Die! is one of those wonky epic 2E modules that probably can't be considered canon. Certainly there are elements that were borrowed from that module and imported into 4E's history, but having an unblemished canon that smoothly joins all four editions is probably a lost cause at this point.
There's a fascinating breakdown of the temporal loop effects that would be caused if that module "actually happened" HERE, with a compelling argument why it can't ever be canon and really can't explain the (for example) changes from Great Wheel to the Great Tree, or Great Tree to what it is in 4E.
At best, I think it's safer to say that there are enough discontinuities between editions now that 4E is really its own separate thing. It borrows a lot from earlier editions, and sometimes contradicts other editions, so there are always going to be wiggly niggly details and tidbits that don't quite match up from edition to edition. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 04:48:02
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Unless you consider each edition a continuity reboot - some worse then others.
Just pretend 'something' (beyond human comprehension) occurred in the universe, and the timeliene got derailed. In fact, we have several pieces of canon in FR that establishes this as something that has happened before (Sundering, Dawn Cataclysm), so its even built into our setting of preference.
Ed's famous 'reset switch'.
Anyhow, you can make everything canon, when you consider the possibility that canon can be canonically re-written, in-setting. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it works very well (the recent Star Trek movie, for example). When you are dealing with stuff like magic, super-science, gods, other dimensions, etc, etc, continuity re-boots are easy enough to write-off.
In fact, its self-serving canon, because only an insane god would tamper with the timeline, since they can alter or obliterate their own existence. Ergo, even evil powers would work to maintain the status-quo, UNLESS they were VERY sure of the outcome. This then answers the question of "why don't more people use time-travel?" Such individuals - be they mortal or divine - would 'anger the gods'.
But Liches are all a little nuts, and Shar... well.. she's Shar. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 05:12:08
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| You'd have to be the barmiest berk in the Cage to claim that the Wheel and the Tree are different! You gotta love dogmatic adherence to philosophy in lieu of empirical evidence! (For 10 stingers *I* will spill the real dark, blood!) |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 05:31:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
You'd have to be the barmiest berk in the Cage to claim that the Wheel and the Tree are different! You gotta love dogmatic adherence to philosophy in lieu of empirical evidence! (For 10 stingers *I* will spill the real dark, blood!)
Swob me bob, it's a smiley! Ye got some zills callin' us barmy! Mebbe you done traveled too many Planar Paths, 'cause we ain't xaeaxed.
If ye think yer a true skag, speak and we'll see if it's worth 5 stingers tops, 'ey! 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 06:38:02
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Ok. Name one blood who, from atop the Spire, could see Baator, or any other plane on the Ring.
Just name one.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
You'd have to be the barmiest berk in the Cage to claim that the Wheel and the Tree are different! You gotta love dogmatic adherence to philosophy in lieu of empirical evidence! (For 10 stingers *I* will spill the real dark, blood!)
Swob me bob, it's a smiley! Ye got some zills callin' us barmy! Mebbe you done traveled too many Planar Paths, 'cause we ain't xaeaxed.
If ye think yer a true skag, speak and we'll see if it's worth 5 stingers tops, 'ey!
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 10:42:07
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Hmmm, Sigil sits atop the peak of the infinitely tall spire in the center of the Outlands. Sigil itself appears to be located inside some sort other-plane with a donut/torus geometry and (rather smallish) finite dimensions. It is described by many accounts as being located at the exact (physical? metaphorical?) "center" of the entire D&D cosmos.
But I'd never actually considered the view. Would an infinite height above "ground level" let an observer see the infinite plane stretched out below? And what would be seen above the infinite horizon? In our world such a view would be limited by atmospheric effects diffusing the light, in space such a view would still ultimately be limited by similar (though more rarified) diffusion effects, as well as the comparatively more prominent distortions caused by gravitational influences on passing light ... in other words: we can see much, much farther through "empty" space but still not infinitely far. We also have sophisticated theories which describe and calculate the actual (distance) boundaries of our finite universe, but such esoterica isn't part of the D&D cosmos.
Similar visual limitations greatly define how far you can see across infinite places like the Astral and Ethereal.
Would a view from "outside" Sigil show an infinitely panoramic orrery of the Great Wheel? Or show breakers of Astral foam crashing upon the infinite shores of floating island-planes? Or see the planes entangled within the infinite roots and branches of a cosmic tree? Or perhaps see the planes neatly stacked within the infinite pages of a great book? Even the Lady of Pain may have never seen the impossible view "outside" Sigil ... it is after all named the City of Doors, not City of Windows. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Jan 2012 11:03:29 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 15:35:50
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I would like to know the name of the "Book" that is about Asmodeus!!! Also if he in true form was just as powerful as AO why did he fall in the first place??? With the ability to manipulate matter on a cosmic level- like DR Manhattan or Galactus why did he fall and why did he not just break his speed, so he did not become weakened????
It seems untrue that a cosmic manipulator as the "true" Asmodeus is or was should be unable to alter things to his liking. Just as it seems a bit implausible that it is his aspect that became a god. Where or why is the "true" entity of Asmodeus???
Can you answer these questions Imp??
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 06 Jan 2012 15:36:44 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 15:49:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
Of course I have sources. Books that talk about Asmodeus.
I'd like to know which ones as well |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 15:57:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Ok. Name one blood who, from atop the Spire, could see Baator, or any other plane on the Ring.
Just name one.
Ridiculous question deserves a ridiculous answer: Zeb Cook. Or anyone who bought Planescape and has the foldout maps.
If you were going to say something about the spire being infinitely high and therefore unclimbable, or something about the bizarre geometry preventing such a view, both are irrelevant to the question at hand. Why? Because both 3E and 4E were written in 3rd person: in each edition, we know -exactly- what the structure of the planes was like. Anything a PC or NPC might see or not see is completely irrelevant. There was a massive restructuring, bottom line. That doesn't make one edition (or cosmology) "better" than another, it's just a fact of the game.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 15:59:04
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Guide to Hell is probably the Planescape product which describes Asmodeus in most detail. Faces of Evil: The Fiends, Planes of Law, Hellbound: The Blood War, and various other products also describe Asmodeus (or his station) in some detail, although the earlier Planescape lore shied away from explicitly naming Asmodeus or any other devils.
Asmodeus, devils, and fiends feature prominently in numerous d20 supplements, some of which are particularly excellent. But none are D&D canon. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 16:48:26
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quote:
I would like to know the name of the "Book" that is about Asmodeus!!!
Oh, I don't know. Maybe Fiendish Codex II, the newest (non-4th ed) book about devils (at least I think it's the newest)?
There's also a short mention of Asmodeus in the description of the Whiptail devil from the Book of fiends Volume I: Legions of Hell book.
quote:
Also if he in true form was just as powerful as AO why did he fall in the first place???
With the ability to manipulate matter on a cosmic level- like DR Manhattan or Galactus why did he fall and why did he not just break his speed, so he did not become weakened????
Because he probably wasn't that powerful when they kicked him from Heaven? Realize that most of his power comes from being the ruler of Hell and all the Lawful Evil energies and souls that he absorbs.
quote:
It seems untrue that a cosmic manipulator as the "true" Asmodeus is or was should be unable to alter things to his liking.
I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here.
quote:
Just as it seems a bit implausible that it is his aspect that became a god. Where or why is the "true" entity of Asmodeus???
The true Asmodeus doesn't need powers of a god. He already is a powerful deity in his own realm. But he's got much less power in other realms, that's why his aspect from Realmsverse acquired Azuths godly essence, so he can meddle in Realmsian space. |
Edited by - Imp on 06 Jan 2012 16:49:59 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 17:02:02
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I think Asmodeus's power comes from
1) the fact that (in theory) he commands the loyalty of every baatezu (devil) in the universe; the baatezu are absolutely compelled by the properties of their plane (from which they themselves are formed) to be Lawful and Evil, most of them hate (and plan to somehow promote themselves above) the superiors they serve, yet still they must serve.
2) humans and other beings throughout the many Primes who can be tempted, threatened, corrupted, manipulated, and controlled by Asmodeus or any other Baatezu; the Lawful Evil thoughts and deeds of these innumerable souls is the stuff which sustains Baator and the Baatezu.
3) external sources of concentrated power, such as Azuth's divinity, which Asmodeus is able to usurp. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Jan 2012 17:02:47 |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 22:53:27
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You nailed it, Therise. The Great Wheel was presented in the 1e and 2e products, which were written from the untrustworthy narrator perspective. In addition, a consistent theme in "Planescape" was the unknowable nature of the cosmos... they even had clubs of philosophers, referred to as "Factions", who were dedicated to their perspective of the structure of the cosmos.
Another recurring theme in "Planescape" was, of course, the idea that anyone who claimed they *knew* the structure of the cosmos was a barking, worm-addled, barmy.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Ok. Name one blood who, from atop the Spire, could see Baator, or any other plane on the Ring.
Just name one.
Ridiculous question deserves a ridiculous answer: Zeb Cook. Or anyone who bought Planescape and has the foldout maps.
If you were going to say something about the spire being infinitely high and therefore unclimbable, or something about the bizarre geometry preventing such a view, both are irrelevant to the question at hand. Why? Because both 3E and 4E were written in 3rd person: in each edition, we know -exactly- what the structure of the planes was like. Anything a PC or NPC might see or not see is completely irrelevant. There was a massive restructuring, bottom line. That doesn't make one edition (or cosmology) "better" than another, it's just a fact of the game.
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 23:00:09
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If he was "cast" out or the heavens then he was not as powerful as an Over Diety = Divine Rank 20+
If it is his aspect which has sucked Azuth, then his aspect has become more powerful not him.
Either way he can at the most be said to have power equal to a Greater Deity.
Over Deity? (in any edition) NO WAY!!!
Greater Deity? (4ed) Maybe
Lesser Deity (4ed) Yes
Even if he had a CR of a 100 he would still not have the same power as AO, since he is situated in Realm Space (created by AO) |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 07:25:37
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Nicolai, please read my posts again. I explained everything. Ayrik provided very good insights. If you're going to ignore what we have written, then we're done with the conversation.  |
Edited by - Imp on 07 Jan 2012 07:26:59 |
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Question about Lord of the ninth
Topic Locked
