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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 07:34:37
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Hi All,
I'm trying to determine and gather some information concerning the true founding of the War Wizards. There seems to be some conflict in the lore.
"Ruins of Myth Drannor" and few other sources describe a cabal of wizards called "The Circle of (the) Flames" and states that members of this group went on to train some of the first War Wizards of Cormyr.
However, the Grand History tell us that Vangerdahast formed the War Wizards in 1308 DR, some five centuries after Myth Drannor's destruction.
Which is correct? I haven't read anything about Vangerdahast's founding, but expect there is more lore (perhaps in Cormyr: A Novel?). Any further information would be welcome, as would thoughts on how to remedy this apparent discrepancy.
I'm writing an adventure - my initial idea is that the War Wizards recruit the PCs to venture into Myth Drannor just after its reclamation and uncover some powerful magic the Circle of Flames left behind when it was overrun.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 16:12:30
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There are two groups that have the name War Wizards.
The first group was founded by the second Royal Magician of Cormyr, Amedahast, well before the Fall of Myth Drannor. Since Amedahast herself was raised and trained in Myth Drannor before coming to study under her ancestor and predecessor, Baerauble, it's very likely that she might have 'recommended' that several early War Wizards train with the Circle.
When Salember claimed the throne for himself, the original War Wizards shattered, keeping their titles but remaining servants of the realm in name only. When Vangerdahast came to Cormyr, he slew a great many traitors (earning himself his epithet, Thunderspells), and refounded the brotherhood. That happened in 1308 DR.
Make sense now? |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 23:45:47
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The summoning work!!
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 00:14:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
The summoning work!!
Hmmm... Casts Summon trio of beer-carrying Calishite Dancing Girls
.
..
...
....
.....
Nothing. Must've failed a roll somewhere... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 01:33:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
The summoning work!!
You say that like you're surprised.
It's me, remember?
That it worked so quickly. I figured your summonings worked according to Sage Time(TM) also. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 03:01:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
The summoning work!!
You say that like you're surprised.
It's me, remember?
That it worked so quickly. I figured your summonings worked according to Sage Time(TM) also.
The Sage got lucky. I was lurking around the Keep dealing with Cormyr stuff, anyway. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 04:36:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm inclined to believe that as more likely.
I'm never that reliable when it comes to either spellcastings or temporal manipulation.
You're only reliable when it comes to being unreliable.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 06:41:27
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Well, I'm certainly glad the Sage's summoning was on the mark. Thanks for the clarification Garen Thal.
However, it seems now answers only beget more questions, as I see there are new avenues of adventure to explore. I'm revising my adventure to have the PCs explore the holding one of the traitors destroyed by Vangerdahast. This leads to the discovery of a partial magic item (perhaps a fragment of the Scrolls Ardentym) and clues that direct the PCs to Myth Drannor to find the rest.
As a result, it seems I need to know a little more! Are there any sources that describe Vangerdahast's period destroying the traitors? Were any of the traitors named? Perhaps even some stronghold mentioned?
Furthermore, does anyone know anything about the Circle of Flames beyond that hinted at in "Ruins of Myth Drannor" and "The Fall of Myth Drannor"?
Many thanks again for your assistance! |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 13:14:03
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| The Cormyr Trilogy should discribe something of that. Unfortunatly I can't remember which of the 3 three books handled this |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 13:39:54
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I love it when answers cause more questions! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 15:20:17
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
The Cormyr Trilogy should discribe something of that. Unfortunatly I can't remember which of the 3 three books handled this
I agree, presumably "Cormyr: A Novel" which I'm sure I have somewhere ...
However, I wondered whether there was any obscure lore us mortals were unaware of.
Hmmm, I wonder if it works for me? (Casts Summon Garen Thal) |
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 10:18:44
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quote:
Originally posted by MalariaMoon
Hmmm, I wonder if it works for me? (Casts Summon Garen Thal)
Clearly not  |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 18:47:45
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quote:
...Hmmm, I wonder if it works for me? (Casts Summon Garen Thal)
When summoning denizens of the upper planes, remember to use truenames, about 1000g of powdered diamond, and the highest quality incense (eight 100gp sticks should suffice).
In lieu of that, PM his mortal avatar and hint about having some rare manuscripts you'd like to show him. Oh, and be sure to promise a plate of fancy cheeses and some tasty beverages.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 03:41:44
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| Thanks Therise, I've done just that! |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 03:46:00
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quote:
Originally posted by MalariaMoon
Well, I'm certainly glad the Sage's summoning was on the mark. Thanks for the clarification Garen Thal.
However, it seems now answers only beget more questions, as I see there are new avenues of adventure to explore. I'm revising my adventure to have the PCs explore the holding one of the traitors destroyed by Vangerdahast. This leads to the discovery of a partial magic item (perhaps a fragment of the Scrolls Ardentym) and clues that direct the PCs to Myth Drannor to find the rest.
As a result, it seems I need to know a little more! Are there any sources that describe Vangerdahast's period destroying the traitors? Were any of the traitors named? Perhaps even some stronghold mentioned?
Furthermore, does anyone know anything about the Circle of Flames beyond that hinted at in "Ruins of Myth Drannor" and "The Fall of Myth Drannor"?
Many thanks again for your assistance!
Apologies for my lack of response. The holidays, and illness, put me quite a bit behind on a deadline or two.
At present, there aren't any canon sources that describe the period between 1306 DR and 1308 DR, when Vangey swept in and reordered the realm and its wizards. Most of my conclusions come from a very close reading, then re-reading, then re-re-reading of the Cormyr novels, timelines, the various campaign setting sources, Volo's Guides, and the Royal Lineage of Cormyr. What followed thereafter was a series of face to face conversations with Ed Greenwood, in which I would propose something, he would say "Yep," I would propose a follow-up, he would grin a little and say "Yep," and so on, until he was grinning widely and nodding as if to say "You've got this. Why are you asking me?"
Believe me, I would love to reveal all, but non-disclosure agreements, hopes for future fiction, and just plain "I don't want to spoil this!" trump those desires. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 03:57:24
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| Sometimes the summoning takes time... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 04:23:42
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Q.E.D. Plates of fancy cheeses -always- provide positive results.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 15:28:48
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| Many thanks for your reply Garen! It sounds like asking Ed might be fruitless, but I'll do so anyway, perhaps something can be slipped past the NDA wall. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 22:24:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
<chop>
Apologies for my lack of response. The holidays, and illness, put me quite a bit behind on a deadline or two.
At present, there aren't any canon sources that describe the period between 1306 DR and 1308 DR, when Vangey swept in and reordered the realm and its wizards. Most of my conclusions come from a very close reading, then re-reading, then re-re-reading of the Cormyr novels, timelines, the various campaign setting sources, Volo's Guides, and the Royal Lineage of Cormyr. What followed thereafter was a series of face to face conversations with Ed Greenwood, in which I would propose something, he would say "Yep," I would propose a follow-up, he would grin a little and say "Yep," and so on, until he was grinning widely and nodding as if to say "You've got this. Why are you asking me?"
Believe me, I would love to reveal all, but non-disclosure agreements, hopes for future fiction, and just plain "I don't want to spoil this!" trump those desires.
 So... are any of those NDAs likely to be resolved by DDI articles in the near future? I'm inclined to engage in that re-re-re-reading you mention, but I don't have my pre-3E sources handy, and of course we haven't yet convinced WotC to publish the Lineage... I hope everyone interested in this scroll sends their requests for such to WotC ASAP.
As a curiosity, Garen/Brian: Has the Lineage been considered "canon" in itself as it has reached states of completion, or have things changed behind the scenes as necessary to accommodate the work of others since its formation? Just curious... seeing as I would expect published canon to trump unpublished canon except in cases of clear typographical errors. Hopefully you can give me an answer that doesn't have to be too thoroughly redacted... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 22:28:22
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| Oh, and the discrepancy that inspired MalariaMoon's question in the first place is one of many reasons I'd love to see an expanded (as in, more past history events included) Grand History of the Realms... an appendix titled "The Royal Lineage of Cormyr" would make the publication perfect, in my estimation. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 22:59:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
<chop>
Apologies for my lack of response. The holidays, and illness, put me quite a bit behind on a deadline or two.
At present, there aren't any canon sources that describe the period between 1306 DR and 1308 DR, when Vangey swept in and reordered the realm and its wizards. Most of my conclusions come from a very close reading, then re-reading, then re-re-reading of the Cormyr novels, timelines, the various campaign setting sources, Volo's Guides, and the Royal Lineage of Cormyr. What followed thereafter was a series of face to face conversations with Ed Greenwood, in which I would propose something, he would say "Yep," I would propose a follow-up, he would grin a little and say "Yep," and so on, until he was grinning widely and nodding as if to say "You've got this. Why are you asking me?"
Believe me, I would love to reveal all, but non-disclosure agreements, hopes for future fiction, and just plain "I don't want to spoil this!" trump those desires.
So... are any of those NDAs likely to be resolved by DDI articles in the near future? I'm inclined to engage in that re-re-re-reading you mention, but I don't have my pre-3E sources handy, and of course we haven't yet convinced WotC to publish the Lineage... I hope everyone interested in this scroll sends their requests for such to WotC ASAP.
Not that I know of, no.
quote:
As a curiosity, Garen/Brian: Has the Lineage been considered "canon" in itself as it has reached states of completion, or have things changed behind the scenes as necessary to accommodate the work of others since its formation? Just curious... seeing as I would expect published canon to trump unpublished canon except in cases of clear typographical errors. Hopefully you can give me an answer that doesn't have to be too thoroughly redacted...
The Lineage has been canon for those who have access to it. In the case that someone writing something on Cormyr didn't have access to the Lineage, or made an error when composing a piece, or (as is most often the case) described something in canon lore that has unintentionally affected the implied timeline of the Lineage, the Lineage has been adapted to compensate. Usually, it's quite minor stuff: a shift of a marriage year here, or a birth year there. But given that Ed is the sole/primary fiction source for Cormyr these days, and I've gotten on board as a Realms freelancer, I suspect even these minor discrepancies will start to disappear.
Ed and I, after all, have the Lineage, and the published Grand History has the birth/death/reign years (which come from the Lineage by way of the incomparable George Krashos), so we needn't worry about those not being straight any longer. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 23:42:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
<chop>
As a curiosity, Garen/Brian: Has the Lineage been considered "canon" in itself as it has reached states of completion, or have things changed behind the scenes as necessary to accommodate the work of others since its formation? Just curious... seeing as I would expect published canon to trump unpublished canon except in cases of clear typographical errors. Hopefully you can give me an answer that doesn't have to be too thoroughly redacted...
The Lineage has been canon for those who have access to it. In the case that someone writing something on Cormyr didn't have access to the Lineage, or made an error when composing a piece, or (as is most often the case) described something in canon lore that has unintentionally affected the implied timeline of the Lineage, the Lineage has been adapted to compensate. Usually, it's quite minor stuff: a shift of a marriage year here, or a birth year there. But given that Ed is the sole/primary fiction source for Cormyr these days, and I've gotten on board as a Realms freelancer, I suspect even these minor discrepancies will start to disappear.
Ed and I, after all, have the Lineage, and the published Grand History has the birth/death/reign years (which come from the Lineage by way of the incomparable George Krashos), so we needn't worry about those not being straight any longer.
Many thanks for your response, Brian... and I do hope that the Lineage sees the light of day soon. I'm curious as to why it wasn't published as an appendix to the GHotR in the first place; is its page count really that large, or was it just deemed to be "too much information"?
One last (for now) question: Is there any published source other than the GHotR that would allow one to tease out further details of the Kinstrife? For me, this is the blurriest part of the picture, and I understand why it might be left vague... it's an excellent topic for a novel. But if the novel doesn't get written, it's just a lack of information, and (as you know) I don't like those.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 04:30:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Is there any published source other than the GHotR that would allow one to tease out further details of the Kinstrife? For me, this is the blurriest part of the picture, and I understand why it might be left vague... it's an excellent topic for a novel. But if the novel doesn't get written, it's just a lack of information, and (as you know) I don't like those.
I'm afraid not. The Lineage, of course, covers the Thronestrife (and in great detail), but that's where it lurks, for now, and nowhere else. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 01:47:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Is there any published source other than the GHotR that would allow one to tease out further details of the Kinstrife? For me, this is the blurriest part of the picture, and I understand why it might be left vague... it's an excellent topic for a novel. But if the novel doesn't get written, it's just a lack of information, and (as you know) I don't like those.
I'm afraid not. The Lineage, of course, covers the Thronestrife (and in great detail), but that's where it lurks, for now, and nowhere else.
Thronestrife, sorry; my bad... I was looking for the term before posting my original question, and was unable to locate it. Anyway, thanks for the answer, and I appreciate knowing that there is great detail on this matter *somewhere*... the fact that it's behind locked doors, however, I believe to be a great disservice to the Realms... and yes, WotC has heard this from me. Has everybody else reading this scroll complained to WotC about this? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Founding of the War Wizards
