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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 15:07:11
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| It just said that he was a vampire iirc. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 15:18:21
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty sure, for example, that there were never any vampire Harpers.
There was Asraf yn Malik el Kahaman yi Manshaka, the LE vampire, who had joined with the Moonstars and was a deepcover Harper agent.
Was this character a true vampire feeding off of humans or a vampire more like Louis from Interview with the Vampire where he initially only feed on animals?
As I recall, the NPC's entry in Cloak & Dagger says that he died of a vampire bite, only to later rise and wander the Vilhon Reach carrying out Khelben's wishes. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 04 Jan 2012 15:19:28 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 18:14:47
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How about Throe-Ink Stars? 
Azure Stars?
Cerulean Stars?
Shadow Harpists? (long, I know... but kinda cool)
Black Ops? 
I Know! Khelbenights! 
Hmmmm... sounds like something Capatin Kirk would make-up to scare people with...... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 19:07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty sure, for example, that there were never any vampire Harpers.
There was Asraf yn Malik el Kahaman yi Manshaka, the LE vampire, who had joined with the Moonstars and was a deepcover Harper agent.
Was this character a true vampire feeding off of humans or a vampire more like Louis from Interview with the Vampire where he initially only feed on animals?
As I recall, the NPC's entry in Cloak & Dagger says that he died of a vampire bite, only to later rise and wander the Vilhon Reach carrying out Khelben's wishes.
And there was another vampire working with the Tel Teu'kiira, as well, in Calimport. We don't have any info on him.
There's also a bronze dragon member. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 19:18:59
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So I was intrigued about the Red Magic thing enough to go pick out the book and start re-reading it, and I think this must be one of those books I bought long ago with the intention of reading but somehow never did; then it got put on a shelf.
Anyway, I'm only about a third into the book, but I can see exactly what Dennis and Markus are talking about. This Harper-druid has to be one of the most bumbling and naive spies I've ever seen in fiction, and it's not like his teammates are much better. At the very beginning, the Harper meets with a low-level informer (a gnoll) in the employ of a Red Wizard (although apparently the Harper doesn't realize this), and he blatantly announces, "Oh yes, I'm the Harper you're supposed to meet. Here, look at my Harper symbol." He then accidentally kills the informer, takes a serious wound himself, and then tromps off through the forest for miles while losing blood and getting woozy. When he finally makes it back to camp, half-dead, he tells his partners, "I don't really know anything, other than a Red Wizard is building up troops, for...uh... some purpose."
Seriously... what Red Wizard wouldn't have a small private army? Brilliant spy work and deductive reasoning, Sherlock of the Forest.
Yeesh. And I probably haven't even gotten to the scene Dennis was talking about. "Incompetent" totally makes sense, even this early.
Still, definitely not how the typical Harper would act, at least according to the game supplements. I guess I'm thankful that this wasn't my first impression of the Harpers, LOL!
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 04 Jan 2012 19:29:53 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 19:26:21
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I get the feeling - by that story and certain other tidbits (another Harper disappeared in CotH sourcebook) - that the Harpers send their least-competent members 'east', and that the further east they are assigned, the more incompetent they were (and the further away so that Khelben doesn't have to deal with them).
In other words, they figure they will either fail miserably (and be taken care of by enemies), or through some stroke of luck succeed where normal agents couldn't, or wouldn't take the risk.
Can you imagine how bad the Harper Agents in Kara-Tur must be? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 19:41:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I get the feeling - by that story and certain other tidbits (another Harper disappeared in CotH sourcebook) - that the Harpers send their least-competent members 'east', and that the further east they are assigned, the more incompetent they were (and the further away so that Khelben doesn't have to deal with them).
In other words, they figure they will either fail miserably (and be taken care of by enemies), or through some stroke of luck succeed where normal agents couldn't, or wouldn't take the risk.
Can you imagine how bad the Harper Agents in Kara-Tur must be?
I can see it going like this. Khelben meets the newest Harper recruit, and glares at him up and down for several minutes.
Khelben: "So... you're min-maxed with INT as your dump stat."
Special Druid: "Sir, yes sir!"
Khelben: "I have the perfect assignment for you, in the East. The far East."
Special Druid: "Right on it, sir!" *fumbles Harper symbol onto the floor*
Khelben: *sigh*
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 04 Jan 2012 19:48:07 |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 20:46:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Can you imagine how bad the Harper Agents in Kara-Tur must be?
Do you think they ever tried to send agents to Osse? How much worse do you think those agents must've been than those sent to Kara-Tur if we follow your philosophy?
 
Good Hunting! |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 22:30:43
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But it depends upon how you look at it - you can also travel west to Osse.
For some reason, I have a very dim recollection of at least one Harper in Maztica... which is odd, because I am pretty sure I never read the novel series. Perhaps an errant mention in some other source?
And now for some reason, I have the theme of the Power Rangers going through my head, except instead its saying, "Go, GO, Harper Agents!"
And if you think the agents in K-T are bad, you should see the ones off-world.
Selunite: "What are you looking for?"
SJ Harper: "Taers."
Selunite: "Taers? Aren't they in Eastern Faerun?"
SJ Harper: "Maybe... but I also heard there are Taers of Selune."
Where's my rimshot smiley? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2012 22:32:39 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 22:38:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
So I was intrigued about the Red Magic thing enough to go pick out the book and start re-reading it
Red Magic is a very weak book in general and certainly the worst of the Harper series. I was very disappointed with when I read it, a proper look at the mysterious eastern realm of Thay full of scary wizards and it was dull, bland and boring. The only significant scene in the book was when the darkenbeasts were created, the rest was poor.
It was Jean's first novel and I think it clearly shows in the writing. Too much fluffy fiction and 'cool fantasy ideas' (the centaur, the non-city bumbling Druid etc) that are not actually cool or clever or engaging and seemed to be put there to make the novel look cutting edge. I found it very similar in the quality of the other material Jean was putting out at the time via the RPGA and other TSR modules; Swamplight, Childs Play etc (Childs Play is shockingly bad, an introduction module to gaming in the new AD&D 2E ruleset and the adventure is for 13-15th level characters!  )
It is not a good example of a Harper Book, read one of Elaine's for what Harpers are about.
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 23:08:53
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
So I was intrigued about the Red Magic thing enough to go pick out the book and start re-reading it
Red Magic is a very weak book in general and certainly the worst of the Harper series. I was very disappointed with when I read it, a proper look at the mysterious eastern realm of Thay full of scary wizards and it was dull, bland and boring. The only significant scene in the book was when the darkenbeasts were created, the rest was poor.
It was Jean's first novel and I think it clearly shows in the writing. Too much fluffy fiction and 'cool fantasy ideas' (the centaur, the non-city bumbling Druid etc) that are not actually cool or clever or engaging and seemed to be put there to make the novel look cutting edge. I found it very similar in the quality of the other material Jean was putting out at the time via the RPGA and other TSR modules; Swamplight, Childs Play etc (Childs Play is shockingly bad, an introduction module to gaming in the new AD&D 2E ruleset and the adventure is for 13-15th level characters! )
It is not a good example of a Harper Book, read one of Elaine's for what Harpers are about.
Cheers
Damian
Indeed, Elaine's books are all terrific. Oddly, though, I remember Jean Rabe's other novels being much better than this one. Perhaps it's a combination of having a fresh author, TSR policies on showing evil, and myself being a much younger reader. Jean's Dragonlance novels weren't bad, and her novels with Andre Norton are quite good.
Reading it now, Red Magic in a lot of ways feels like it was written for pre-teens, which IIRC was a primary target market of TSR post-Gygax. It's not that her prose or timing is bad, it's the nature and actions of the characters themselves, and the dialogue. It's really strange that I don't recall reading this before. I guess I skipped directly to Cunningham, because (looking at the release list, and my shelf), there are several Harper books I haven't read.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 04 Jan 2012 23:09:48 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 23:30:37
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| Which is why I do not belittle the author. I have enjoyed other stories by her. Everyone is entitled to 'a miss' (and this was a BIGGY). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 02:01:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Cerulean Stars?
I'm not sure about that one. Kind of sounds like a derivative of the Keepers of the Cerulean Sign.
quote:
I Know! Khelbenights!
Taking the concept of Khelben as Batman way too far... We now have Khelben: The Brave and Those Who Seek Unity.
Or, better yet, in the spirit of a current DC Bat-family initiative, I present:- Khelben Incorporated. Just replace every instance of Batman with Khelben, and imagine the other "Batmen" around the world being agents of the Moonstars. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 02:02:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And there was another vampire working with the Tel Teu'kiira, as well, in Calimport. We don't have any info on him.
Hmmm. I think either Steven or Eric once confirmed that this was indeed Manshaka.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 05 Jan 2012 04:05:38 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 02:34:29
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quote:
Therise
Anyway, I'm only about a third into [Red Magic], but I can see exactly what Dennis and Markus are talking about. This Harper-druid has to be one of the most bumbling and naive spies I've ever seen in fiction, and it's not like his teammates are much better. At the very beginning, the Harper meets with a low-level informer (a gnoll) in the employ of a Red Wizard (although apparently the Harper doesn't realize this), and he blatantly announces, "Oh yes, I'm the Harper you're supposed to meet. Here, look at my Harper symbol." He then accidentally kills the informer, takes a serious wound himself, and then tromps off through the forest for miles while losing blood and getting woozy. When he finally makes it back to camp, half-dead, he tells his partners, "I don't really know anything, other than a Red Wizard is building up troops, for...uh... some purpose."
Seriously... what Red Wizard wouldn't have a small private army? Brilliant spy work and deductive reasoning, Sherlock of the Forest.
If you think the Harpers in that novel are incompetent, just wait until you read about the Red Wizards. Red Magic was the first Harpers novel I read, but I unfortunately forced myself to read two others from the series - after all, there weren't so many Realmslore options back then. But you know there's a problem when you read novels written for young adults - and you happen to be a young adult - and yet you still find them unacceptably (insultingly) naive, oversimplified, and childish.
[Edit]
Khelben critically scrutinizes his latest recruit.
Khelben: "Hmmm ... odd, I actually can't see a dump stat. But nice hair. What exactly can you do?"
Special Bard: "I'm a bard, sir! I can do everything, Jack of all trades, just like the experts, sir! And I'm half-elven, wink-wink!" *dramatic pose*
Khelben: "Ah. You'll be in charge of a special team I'm putting together. You'll be joining another agent and heading East at dawn."
Special Bard: "We'll be the best Harpers in the land, sir!" *skips away, singing and brandishing his silvered Harper symbol with a preening flourish*
Khelben: *sigh* |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Jan 2012 05:28:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 04:42:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And there was another vampire working with the Tel Teu'kiira, as well, in Calimport. We don't have any info on him.
Hmmm. I think either Steven or Eric once confirmed that this was indeed Manshaka.
A quick glance at Cloak & Dagger indicates otherwise... Asraf yn Malik el Kahaman yi Manshaka is listed as a raw recruit, active in the Vilhon Reach, while the unnamed vampire is listed as a regional agent in Calimport.
Another notable non-Harper member: Kiirma Blackmane of the Shadow Thieves.
And we can't forget that Sememmon and Ashemmi have also worked for the Tel Teu'kiira. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 05:13:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And there was another vampire working with the Tel Teu'kiira, as well, in Calimport. We don't have any info on him.
Hmmm. I think either Steven or Eric once confirmed that this was indeed Manshaka.
A quick glance at Cloak & Dagger indicates otherwise... Asraf yn Malik el Kahaman yi Manshaka is listed as a raw recruit, active in the Vilhon Reach, while the unnamed vampire is listed as a regional agent in Calimport.
Yeah. I just flicked through the entry myself. And I'm starting to remember the old scroll discussion, now, as well. It was either Steven or Eric who partially confirmed Manshaka had previously spent time in Calimport.
I must've mixed them up.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2012 : 01:15:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I find this hilarious because our group was made of Harpers and it often adventured in Kara-Tur.
Harpers in Kara-Tur? Heh. I must admit, I'd never considered that angle for their operations before.
Thanks for the potential plot-hook Charles, which I'm filing away for future use. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2012 : 03:09:14
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
It was Jean's first novel and I think it clearly shows in the writing.
I didn't know it was her first. I thought she wrote DL novels before venturing to FR. Anyway, had I known, I would have been more merciful in my reviews. First novels should not be criticized the same way the second, third (and so on and so forth) are... Still, I wouldn't take back what I said about her way of depicting Harpers as pathetically inept. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 08 Jan 2012 03:09:57 |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 19:38:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW, were there two different covers for that product? 
Not really; Amazon (and other online places) seemed to use the catalogue rough copy of the art instead of a scan of the final art as published (IIRC).
Steven
who's not had time to read this whole discussion but will soon.....and hopefully have something constructive to say |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 20:35:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Khelben critically scrutinizes his latest recruit.
Khelben: "Hmmm ... odd, I actually can't see a dump stat. But nice hair. What exactly can you do?"
Special Bard: "I'm a bard, sir! I can do everything, Jack of all trades, just like the experts, sir! And I'm half-elven, wink-wink!" *dramatic pose*
Khelben: "Ah. You'll be in charge of a special team I'm putting together. You'll be joining another agent and heading East at dawn."
Special Bard: "We'll be the best Harpers in the land, sir!" *skips away, singing and brandishing his silvered Harper symbol with a preening flourish*
Khelben: *sigh*
Once the recruit is a suitable distance away, and certainly out of ear shot Khelben mumbles again.
"Of course you'll be the best in the land, you'll be the only one there. It seems that the locals have a low tolerance for stupidity; I hope you can check yours long enough to survive. Somehow though, I suspect I've seen the last of you." |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 21:52:25
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"Look Khelben! I found that Krakentua you sent me looking for in the East a few years ago. It was a lot of hard work, but it really paid off. Not only did he follow me back here, but he brought along dozens of his friends!"
Khelben: {groan} "Why does Tymora smile upon idiots?"
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW, were there two different covers for that product?
Not really; Amazon (and other online places) seemed to use the catalogue rough copy of the art instead of a scan of the final art as published (IIRC).
Steven
who's not had time to read this whole discussion but will soon.....and hopefully have something constructive to say
Thanks for the answer - when i went looking for it, I was surprised I couldn't find the cover I had on mine (I thought I was going nuts).
I know.... TOO LATE. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 05:32:36
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quote:
Therise
But IMO sheer power and twirling moustaches don't make great villains.
What nonsense is this? Villainy's all about melodramatic twirling moustaches, mwoohahahaaa, and "You dare??? Nooooooo, it cannot be!" nonsense. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 07:02:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Therise
But IMO sheer power and twirling moustaches don't make great villains.
What nonsense is this? Villainy's all about melodramatic twirling moustaches, mwoohahahaaa, and "You dare??? Nooooooo, it cannot be!" nonsense.
Untie Nell from those train tracks immediately, you... you... FIEND!
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 13:58:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"Look Khelben! I found that Krakentua you sent me looking for in the East a few years ago. It was a lot of hard work, but it really paid off. Not only did he follow me back here, but he brought along dozens of his friends!"
Khelben: {groan} "Why does Tymora smile upon idiots?"
Because Tymora is fickle-minded, and because idiots are more amusing than...almost anyone. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 14:04:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"Look Khelben! I found that Krakentua you sent me looking for in the East a few years ago. It was a lot of hard work, but it really paid off. Not only did he follow me back here, but he brought along dozens of his friends!"
Khelben: {groan} "Why does Tymora smile upon idiots?"
Because Tymora is fickle-minded, and because idiots are more amusing than...almost anyone.
Sadly, this is true |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 14:36:49
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"Look Khelben! I found that Krakentua you sent me looking for in the East a few years ago. It was a lot of hard work, but it really paid off. Not only did he follow me back here, but he brought along dozens of his friends!"
Khelben: {groan} "Why does Tymora smile upon idiots?"
Because Tymora is fickle-minded, and because idiots are more amusing than...almost anyone.
Sadly, this is true
It's not necessarily sad. Sometimes, it is better to see something both stupid and amusing, than that which is just plain annoying. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 20:22:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Why a group who are practically anarchists would argue over the best way to do things is completely beyond me.
In my experience, anarchists spend most of their time doing just that. Life of Brian wasn't far from reality when it comes to revolutionary groups.
When people are independent and strong-willed, each and every one of them will be certain that they are correct. If the chain-of-command if loose or non-existent, what you have is not an organisation, but a bunch of CEOs.
Given that the Harpers cannot usefully pursue two or more long-term goals per region, this means that any place where there are more than one Harper, you are apt to see them arguing over what to do.
This is, as far as I could see, why Khelben sighed loudly and created the Moonstars. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 00:14:54
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I liked the Harpers more than the Moonstars. I was never really a fan of the split anyway. I kind of felt it was over petty differences. Although having either group functioning semi close to its old glory days would be great compared to the current timeline. I always liked to think of the Realms as kind of like the real world during the Cold War just with a lot of superpowers. Most nations had powerful armies and could wreck untold destruction on the setting if they chose to make war. However, most of the fighting was done through a spy vs spy kind of conflict and which served as proxy confrontations. The organizations like the Harpers and Moonstars were attempting to prevent those wars from breaking out.
I miss the realms having world ranging organizations period. Whether that would be the Harpers, Moonstars, Zhents, Cult of Dragon, Red wizards, Shadow thieves etc. From what I gathered of 4ed realms non-evil aligned nations are so crippled and dysfunctional that they can only pay attention to their bordering neighbors. Aside from nations with evil-aligned rulers which are all experiencing a kind of golden age, but electing to sit around and wait for adventurers to come by and rain on their parade rather than making any effort to conqueror the crippled defenseless nations bordering them.
On the Shadovar front, I think the Shades could have been really cool, if they interacted with the setting in a meaningful way rather than just being able to slaughter anyone that opposes them, but choosing not to just dominate the world. Also, what do the Shades do other than plot to take over the world? I mean the Zhentarim and cult of the dragon could both attract members that didn't exclusively believe in murdering puppies for entertainment. Both organizations attracted Merchants that wanted the benefits of safer caravan travel and extra money for strong arming competition, or smuggling. If the Shadovar actually participated in trade and politics, and say where just as powerful as the Zulkirs or Chosen of Mystra rather than more powerful they could be a cool new power group (in the old setting). The Shadovar are more or less the uncomplicated bad guys, there really isn't a good reason to ever negotiate with them.
I would like to see the complex political environment of the realms return. It could include both groups, but the Harpers back in a points of light setting isn't really that interesting. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Moonstars vs. Harpers
