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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 15:11:11
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Is there Phoenix in the Realms? If so, is it in any way related to Kossuth? Or is it Kossuth himself?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 15:35:10
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Interesting train of thought (and I would think a question for Ed).
The first thing that pops in my head is Zakhara - I have no way of checking, but I would assume the official Arabianesque setting would have one (or more).
Ed didn't have Zakhara, so if he had a Phoenix, I would hazard to guess it was from the Raurin (Anauroch's history was worked-out by Ed, and I am just not seeing it). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2011 15:36:31 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 15:36:09
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| Yes. Demihuman Deities notes that "phoenixes" serve Marthammor, Aerdrie and Corellan. So places that are important to the worship of these faiths may be where one could find a phoenix. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 15:39:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Interesting train of thought (and I would think a question for Ed).
There is already a question about the phoenix that's pending for Ed to answer, as I recall. From back in 2009. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 15:40:53
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Thanks, Sage. Quite interesting. Now, why is it we don't see these fascinating creatures in FR novels?
I thought all creatures that have affinity to fire serve Kossuth. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 16:00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Thanks, Sage. Quite interesting. Now, why is it we don't see these fascinating creatures in FR novels?
I thought all creatures that have affinity to fire serve Kossuth.
I always wondered why certain monsters, both mythical and magical, never really made appearance in Realms fiction. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 16:19:40
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In my Realms I replaced Ao with Marvel's Phoenix, it an aspect of the demiurge.
In official Realms there's the temple of Lathander in Shadowdale, shaped like a phoenix. Monks of Kossuth have the Order of Phoenix, and there's one knightly order in Raven's Bluff. The Daemonfey have a corrupted phoenix for a symbol.
Then there's that legend from Cormanthyr about a mage who cast to many high magic rituals and burst into flames becoming a phoenix. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 16:30:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
In my Realms I replaced Ao with Marvel's Phoenix, it an aspect of the demiurge.
In official Realms there's the temple of Lathander in Shadowdale, shaped like a phoenix. Monks of Kossuth have the Order of Phoenix, and there's one knightly order in Raven's Bluff. The Daemonfey have a corrupted phoenix for a symbol.
Then there's that legend from Cormanthyr about a mage who cast to many high magic rituals and burst into flames becoming a phoenix.
Was the Temple of Lathander supposed to be a Phoenix? If so then the artist from the Forgotten Realms Atlas did not do it justice. It almost looked like a swan to me. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 16:36:06
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I always thought it was a swan myself.
Phoenix's serving Kossuth sounds right to me, even though alignment-wise Lathander would make a better fit.
And now you have me thinking Aumantor is just a deific aspect of Kossuth (the one that had been answering Kossuth's clergy all along). Just a theory, mind you. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 17:04:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I always thought it was a swan myself.
Phoenix's serving Kossuth sounds right to me, even though alignment-wise Lathander would make a better fit.
And now you have me thinking Aumantor is just a deific aspect of Kossuth (the one that had been answering Kossuth's clergy all along). Just a theory, mind you.
Great maps by the way Markustay!  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 17:09:55
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| I don't remember that picture, but the description says phoenix. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 18:30:10
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Was the Temple of Lathander supposed to be a Phoenix? If so then the artist from the Forgotten Realms Atlas did not do it justice. It almost looked like a swan to me.
It is, sadly, not uncommon for FR art to not do justice to the source, or even worse, to not resemble the source.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 18:31:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Was the Temple of Lathander supposed to be a Phoenix? If so then the artist from the Forgotten Realms Atlas did not do it justice. It almost looked like a swan to me.
It is, sadly, not uncommon for FR art to not do justice to the source, or even worse, to not resemble the source.
True Statement. The initial cover art for Drizzt is a prime example |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 18:43:07
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Now that I look at it, I do note some flamey-looking edging to the wings. It still looks like a swan to me, though.
@entreri - TY, and I am aware of the accolades I am getting on other sites (that to everyone - I have received a plethora of PMs the past few days, and TY all for the support). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 18:46:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now that I look at it, I do note some flamey-looking edging to the wings. It still looks like a swan to me, though.
@entreri - TY, and I am aware of the accolades I am getting on other sites (that to everyone - I have received a plethora of PMs the past few days, and TY all for the support).
Still looks like a swan to me, mainly because of the beak i think. I picture a phoenix having a more dangerous looking beak. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 19:36:11
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Two quick questions and one comment...
Are there any known phoera in the Realms? I never got a chance but I always wanted to play one.
In any Realms or other D&D product are there phoenix-like creatures based on the other elements? I know there is a cold based phoera (starts with a V) and there was a Kobold Quarterly that had a water based phoenix. How cool would an acid phoenix be?!!
In the Realms I think ot is far more appropriate for Phoenixes to work with Lathander than Kossuth. Besides just alignment, all RW myth on phoenixes focuses on rebirth through fire. Rebirth and renewal is SO Lathander |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 20:08:31
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Over the year we had MANY elemental creatures (at one point I thought TOO many) in the MM's, spread over a dozen official settings. While we had ones that had versions for each element (grue, mephits, fundamentals, etc), there were also element-specific ones like the Phoenix and Water Weird.
I don't think that is a bad thing, although at one time it bothered the OCD in me (very mild case), which craves balance in all things. I suppose one can assume elemental creatures have evolved into niches, just as prime creatures have.
In other words, there may have been proto-phoenixes for every element (fundamentals?), but over time they developed into very different creatures, with their own names. Considering how different the elements are, I don't just think this is possible, but probable.
Having just come from the 5e thread, I can't help but think that 2e and 3e may have also started to get 'over-designed' at some point. I remember 4e had a mantra of "no unnecessary balance" (from some podcast), which many frowned upon because it so greatly affected the planes and alignments. Although I didn't agree to what it did to the Multiverse (Planescape was off the shizzle), I think it was a good idea - without purposely avoiding it, we WOULD get things like a water-phoenix, earth phoenix, etc, which I feel detracts from the spirit of the creature itself. Think about this - that is precisely what many VG's do; we get only a handful of creatures (by comparison to P&P RPGs), but they create 'types' for each creature, allowing them to use the same graphic model and apply dozens of different skins to it. It makes sense for CRPGs, but it is kinda cheesy when you start to do that cookie-cutter approach to P&P monsters. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2011 20:16:36 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 21:41:57
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I think they are more related to creatures like asuras than elementals.
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Are there any known phoera in the Realms?
Only where MM3 says. Calimshan fits cause of the Phoenix Prophecies there.
In one campaign I had phoeras in Arnrock in the Lake of Steam, they had a city called Pyrepool.
Also there's the Jade Phoenix mages from the Book of Nine Swords, phoeras could guard the Peaks of Flame in Chult against Dendar. |
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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe
Canada
137 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 22:01:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Yes. Demihuman Deities notes that "phoenixes" serve Marthammor, Aerdrie and Corellan. So places that are important to the worship of these faiths may be where one could find a phoenix.
You beat me to it.
I was going to say something along those lines as well. |
Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P24 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D) |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 00:55:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I thought all creatures that have affinity to fire serve Kossuth.
Why? Traditionally, the concept of the Phoenix embodies rebirth. Lathander, and to a lesser extent, Amanuator, would be more appropriate.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 00:58:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
In any Realms or other D&D product are there phoenix-like creatures based on the other elements?
Considering that the actual presence of the Phoenix in the Realmslore isn't entirely prolific, I don't think it's an mythological element that has been developed that far for the setting. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 03:25:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I thought all creatures that have affinity to fire serve Kossuth.
Why? Traditionally, the concept of the Phoenix embodies rebirth. Lathander, and to a lesser extent, Amanuator, would be more appropriate.
A creature that's made entirely of fire. Fire that cannot be extinguished. Sounds to me like a servant of Kossuth. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 03:39:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I thought all creatures that have affinity to fire serve Kossuth.
Why? Traditionally, the concept of the Phoenix embodies rebirth. Lathander, and to a lesser extent, Amanuator, would be more appropriate.
A creature that's made entirely of fire. Fire that cannot be extinguished. Sounds to me like a servant of Kossuth.
Sure. But the worship of Kossuth usually calls upon those who exemplify lawful and/or evil alignments.
Considering that the deities I mentioned earlier that are served by phoenix, and that they're all of good alignments, Lathander is a more effective fitting for phoenix in the Realms. Worship should comprise more than just the physical component. It's about belief, philosophy, and the metaphysical as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 04:57:54
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To further-along sage's train of thought - we know the Elemental planes have princes of evil and of good (there may have been neutral ones as well... probably FR's 4 gods).
That means, like in everything else in the multiverse, the elemental planes are divided amongst the alignments, and not every being on every plane follows every leader-type from that plane.
If Kossuth represents neutral-fire, then the Phoenix would probably follow the power of Fire/Good. Thats not to say he couldn't command some of them if he felt a need, or they were before him, but like tends to gravitate to like in the Inner planes.
There is a similar creature - the Firebird - which may be servants of Kossuth in lieu of the Phoenix. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2011 04:59:18 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 05:32:08
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The Phoenix is generally portrayed as neutral and good-aligned. But in some it's portrayed to have two opposite sides, the Dark Phoenix being the other. Besides, Kossuth's clergy isn't all evil-aligned. There's the Disciples of the Phoenix. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 07:06:42
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| There is a site covered with alien and undecipherable symbols in Pandemonium called Howler's Crag, it's grave of a dead phoenix power. Other gods destroyed the phoenix and its followers cause they controlled the secrets of reincarnation (and something about planewalking). It's possible it was an evil deity cause it's in Pandemonium. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 07:35:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The Phoenix is generally portrayed as neutral and good-aligned. But in some it's portrayed to have two opposite sides, the Dark Phoenix being the other. Besides, Kossuth's clergy isn't all evil-aligned. There's the Disciples of the Phoenix.
The Dark Phoenix was the result of the Phoenix entity giving in to the inherent new sensations of the flesh it experienced while merged with Jean. The Phoenix entity itself wasn't evil. It was merely temporarily corrupted by its joint relationship with a human mortal. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 18:25:37
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Isn't Kossuth neutral? That's supposed to be case, right? Otherwise, he wouldn't tolerate the existence of the Disciples of the Phoenix. And isn't that name itself indicative that the Phoenix and Kossuth are related, if not one and the same? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 02:55:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Isn't Kossuth neutral? That's supposed to be case, right? Otherwise, he wouldn't tolerate the existence of the Disciples of the Phoenix. And isn't that name itself indicative that the Phoenix and Kossuth are related, if not one and the same?
Not necessarily.
The Disciples may seek to borrow from the "rebirth" aspect of the Phoenix, which would be a powerful force of motivation in their conflicts with enemies of a monastic order. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 03:50:32
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Is it the rebirth or the "unstoppable force of fire" aspect of the Phoenix---that which allows it to burn everthing it deems evil and corrupt? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Phoenix
