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Dennis
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  15:11:11  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic

Is there Phoenix in the Realms? If so, is it in any way related to Kossuth? Or is it Kossuth himself?

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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  15:35:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting train of thought (and I would think a question for Ed).

The first thing that pops in my head is Zakhara - I have no way of checking, but I would assume the official Arabianesque setting would have one (or more).

Ed didn't have Zakhara, so if he had a Phoenix, I would hazard to guess it was from the Raurin (Anauroch's history was worked-out by Ed, and I am just not seeing it).

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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2011 15:36:31
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The Sage
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  15:36:09  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes. Demihuman Deities notes that "phoenixes" serve Marthammor, Aerdrie and Corellan. So places that are important to the worship of these faiths may be where one could find a phoenix.

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The Sage
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  15:39:17  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Interesting train of thought (and I would think a question for Ed).
There is already a question about the phoenix that's pending for Ed to answer, as I recall. From back in 2009.

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Dennis
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  15:40:53  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Thanks, Sage. Quite interesting. Now, why is it we don't see these fascinating creatures in FR novels?

I thought all creatures that have affinity to fire serve Kossuth.

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Artemas Entreri
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  16:00:15  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Thanks, Sage. Quite interesting. Now, why is it we don't see these fascinating creatures in FR novels?

I thought all creatures that have affinity to fire serve Kossuth.



I always wondered why certain monsters, both mythical and magical, never really made appearance in Realms fiction.

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Quale
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  16:19:40  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my Realms I replaced Ao with Marvel's Phoenix, it an aspect of the demiurge.

In official Realms there's the temple of Lathander in Shadowdale, shaped like a phoenix. Monks of Kossuth have the Order of Phoenix, and there's one knightly order in Raven's Bluff. The Daemonfey have a corrupted phoenix for a symbol.

Then there's that legend from Cormanthyr about a mage who cast to many high magic rituals and burst into flames becoming a phoenix.
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Artemas Entreri
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  16:30:09  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quale

In my Realms I replaced Ao with Marvel's Phoenix, it an aspect of the demiurge.

In official Realms there's the temple of Lathander in Shadowdale, shaped like a phoenix. Monks of Kossuth have the Order of Phoenix, and there's one knightly order in Raven's Bluff. The Daemonfey have a corrupted phoenix for a symbol.

Then there's that legend from Cormanthyr about a mage who cast to many high magic rituals and burst into flames becoming a phoenix.



Was the Temple of Lathander supposed to be a Phoenix? If so then the artist from the Forgotten Realms Atlas did not do it justice. It almost looked like a swan to me.

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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  16:36:06  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always thought it was a swan myself.

Phoenix's serving Kossuth sounds right to me, even though alignment-wise Lathander would make a better fit.

And now you have me thinking Aumantor is just a deific aspect of Kossuth (the one that had been answering Kossuth's clergy all along). Just a theory, mind you.

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Artemas Entreri
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  17:04:54  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I always thought it was a swan myself.

Phoenix's serving Kossuth sounds right to me, even though alignment-wise Lathander would make a better fit.

And now you have me thinking Aumantor is just a deific aspect of Kossuth (the one that had been answering Kossuth's clergy all along). Just a theory, mind you.



Great maps by the way Markustay!

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Quale
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  17:09:55  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't remember that picture, but the description says phoenix.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  18:30:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

Was the Temple of Lathander supposed to be a Phoenix? If so then the artist from the Forgotten Realms Atlas did not do it justice. It almost looked like a swan to me.



It is, sadly, not uncommon for FR art to not do justice to the source, or even worse, to not resemble the source.

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Artemas Entreri
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  18:31:32  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

Was the Temple of Lathander supposed to be a Phoenix? If so then the artist from the Forgotten Realms Atlas did not do it justice. It almost looked like a swan to me.



It is, sadly, not uncommon for FR art to not do justice to the source, or even worse, to not resemble the source.




True Statement. The initial cover art for Drizzt is a prime example

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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  18:43:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now that I look at it, I do note some flamey-looking edging to the wings. It still looks like a swan to me, though.

@entreri - TY, and I am aware of the accolades I am getting on other sites (that to everyone - I have received a plethora of PMs the past few days, and TY all for the support).

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Artemas Entreri
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  18:46:01  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Now that I look at it, I do note some flamey-looking edging to the wings. It still looks like a swan to me, though.

@entreri - TY, and I am aware of the accolades I am getting on other sites (that to everyone - I have received a plethora of PMs the past few days, and TY all for the support).



Still looks like a swan to me, mainly because of the beak i think. I picture a phoenix having a more dangerous looking beak.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

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Seethyr
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801 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  19:36:11  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Two quick questions and one comment...

Are there any known phoera in the Realms? I never got a chance but I always wanted to play one.

In any Realms or other D&D product are there phoenix-like creatures based on the other elements? I know there is a cold based phoera (starts with a V) and there was a Kobold Quarterly that had a water based phoenix. How cool would an acid phoenix be?!!

In the Realms I think ot is far more appropriate for Phoenixes to work with Lathander than Kossuth. Besides just alignment, all RW myth on phoenixes focuses on rebirth through fire. Rebirth and renewal is SO Lathander

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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  20:08:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Over the year we had MANY elemental creatures (at one point I thought TOO many) in the MM's, spread over a dozen official settings. While we had ones that had versions for each element (grue, mephits, fundamentals, etc), there were also element-specific ones like the Phoenix and Water Weird.

I don't think that is a bad thing, although at one time it bothered the OCD in me (very mild case), which craves balance in all things. I suppose one can assume elemental creatures have evolved into niches, just as prime creatures have.

In other words, there may have been proto-phoenixes for every element (fundamentals?), but over time they developed into very different creatures, with their own names. Considering how different the elements are, I don't just think this is possible, but probable.

Having just come from the 5e thread, I can't help but think that 2e and 3e may have also started to get 'over-designed' at some point. I remember 4e had a mantra of "no unnecessary balance" (from some podcast), which many frowned upon because it so greatly affected the planes and alignments. Although I didn't agree to what it did to the Multiverse (Planescape was off the shizzle), I think it was a good idea - without purposely avoiding it, we WOULD get things like a water-phoenix, earth phoenix, etc, which I feel detracts from the spirit of the creature itself. Think about this - that is precisely what many VG's do; we get only a handful of creatures (by comparison to P&P RPGs), but they create 'types' for each creature, allowing them to use the same graphic model and apply dozens of different skins to it. It makes sense for CRPGs, but it is kinda cheesy when you start to do that cookie-cutter approach to P&P monsters.

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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2011 20:16:36
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  21:41:57  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think they are more related to creatures like asuras than elementals.

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr



Are there any known phoera in the Realms?


Only where MM3 says. Calimshan fits cause of the Phoenix Prophecies there.

In one campaign I had phoeras in Arnrock in the Lake of Steam, they had a city called Pyrepool.

Also there's the Jade Phoenix mages from the Book of Nine Swords, phoeras could guard the Peaks of Flame in Chult against Dendar.
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Nilus Reynard
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Canada
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Posted - 03 Nov 2011 :  22:01:46  Show Profile Send Nilus Reynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Yes. Demihuman Deities notes that "phoenixes" serve Marthammor, Aerdrie and Corellan. So places that are important to the worship of these faiths may be where one could find a phoenix.



You beat me to it.

I was going to say something along those lines as well.

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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  00:31:52  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If by phoenix you mean THE Phoenix, I'm thinking she/it would definitely serve kossuth. "burn away what doesn't work" is the motto of the Marvel Phoenix, and it is a decidedly neutral force in its natural state. Add the human element in, and THEN it gains an alignment. But the creature itself has none, unless it's the N alignment of cosmic balance between death/rebirth.

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The Sage
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Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  00:55:19  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

I thought all creatures that have affinity to fire serve Kossuth.

Why? Traditionally, the concept of the Phoenix embodies rebirth. Lathander, and to a lesser extent, Amanuator, would be more appropriate.

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The Sage
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Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  00:58:48  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

In any Realms or other D&D product are there phoenix-like creatures based on the other elements?
Considering that the actual presence of the Phoenix in the Realmslore isn't entirely prolific, I don't think it's an mythological element that has been developed that far for the setting.

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Dennis
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Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  03:25:42  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

I thought all creatures that have affinity to fire serve Kossuth.

Why? Traditionally, the concept of the Phoenix embodies rebirth. Lathander, and to a lesser extent, Amanuator, would be more appropriate.

A creature that's made entirely of fire. Fire that cannot be extinguished. Sounds to me like a servant of Kossuth.

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The Sage
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Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  03:39:49  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

I thought all creatures that have affinity to fire serve Kossuth.

Why? Traditionally, the concept of the Phoenix embodies rebirth. Lathander, and to a lesser extent, Amanuator, would be more appropriate.

A creature that's made entirely of fire. Fire that cannot be extinguished. Sounds to me like a servant of Kossuth.

Sure. But the worship of Kossuth usually calls upon those who exemplify lawful and/or evil alignments.

Considering that the deities I mentioned earlier that are served by phoenix, and that they're all of good alignments, Lathander is a more effective fitting for phoenix in the Realms. Worship should comprise more than just the physical component. It's about belief, philosophy, and the metaphysical as well.

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Markustay
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Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  04:57:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To further-along sage's train of thought - we know the Elemental planes have princes of evil and of good (there may have been neutral ones as well... probably FR's 4 gods).

That means, like in everything else in the multiverse, the elemental planes are divided amongst the alignments, and not every being on every plane follows every leader-type from that plane.

If Kossuth represents neutral-fire, then the Phoenix would probably follow the power of Fire/Good. Thats not to say he couldn't command some of them if he felt a need, or they were before him, but like tends to gravitate to like in the Inner planes.

There is a similar creature - the Firebird - which may be servants of Kossuth in lieu of the Phoenix.

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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2011 04:59:18
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Dennis
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Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  05:32:08  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

The Phoenix is generally portrayed as neutral and good-aligned. But in some it's portrayed to have two opposite sides, the Dark Phoenix being the other. Besides, Kossuth's clergy isn't all evil-aligned. There's the Disciples of the Phoenix.

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