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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 14:53:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The Empire Trilogy and Rage of a Demon King are fat.
Still need to read the Empire Trilogy and i loved Rage. All of his latest books see to be right around 400 pages though. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 14:55:18
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Also: for me FAT would be 600+ pages, 400-600 would just be chunky, and <400 would be skinny  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 06:02:05
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Don't forget the font. Weeks's novels, for example, have 600+ pages, but the font is rather big that it could easily shrink to 300+ pages only had the font been smaller. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 12:38:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Don't forget the font. Weeks's novels, for example, have 600+ pages, but the font is rather big that it could easily shrink to 300+ pages only had the font been smaller.
Shrinking down to a smaller font might shave 100 pages off or so. Do you think the author has any say in the font size used in their books? Probably all publisher at that point. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 15:37:01
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I don't think so. Some of them don't even get to know which parts are deleted by their editor until they see the actual book. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 16:27:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I don't think so. Some of them don't even get to know which parts are deleted by their editor until they see the actual book.
I'm not a writer, but that would probably drive me crazy. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 16:28:11
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| I would love to read an un-edited draft of an author's first crack at a story and see if i enjoyed it, assuming that it is an author i enjoy anyways ;) |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 16:35:35
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To do so, you have to be the editor yourself.
I browsed some 'unproofed' books in several Booksale* branches; the ones with an explicit note on top of the cover: NOT FOR SALE. Though strangely they were for sale. Just browsed, didn't buy them. Not to my liking. And the authors are not that famous, IMHO.
*Booksale is one of our local second-hand chain bookstores. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 04 Nov 2011 16:38:22 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2011 : 01:21:14
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Tolkien is the mythmaker, the undisputed, undefeated king.
Anyone aspiring to writing works of fantasy that will endure for multiple lifetimes will always be compared to him, measured by the yardstick he created.
It doesn't matter if you personally like someone more. Any reasonably honest attempt at objective assesment has to acknowledge the titanic influence of Tolkien. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 16:38:31
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It's rather difficult, if not impossible, to make an objective assessment on a subject that is almost entirely subjective. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 18:03:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's rather difficult, if not impossible, to make an objective assessment on a subject that is almost entirely subjective.
'Who do I like best?' is a subjective question.
'Which fantasy author has had the greatest impact on the field as a whole?' is not.
Granted, it may be difficult to measure, but no matter what yardstick we use, Tolkien stands at the top. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 18:38:29
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Even the determining of which yardstick to utilize is subjective. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 18:46:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Even the determining of which yardstick to utilize is subjective.
To be sure. But to assert that objectivity is thereby impossible is to maintain that history, for example, can never be studied academically.
Opinions may be subjective, but that doesn't stop people from supporting them with facts, which then renders them statements of objective fact.
The field of fantasy was transformed by the efforts of several authors, of which the most important was J.R.R. Tolkien. The others on the list, quite aside from how well one likes their work, do not have that distinction. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 15:40:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
As it happens, I like G.R.R. Martin just as much or more than Tolkien, but he is simply too recent to judge the historical impact of his work.
I also think that Leiber, Howard and Burroughs deserve to be on that list.
Currently I am reading my first Leiber book, loving it so far. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 16:00:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
As it happens, I like G.R.R. Martin just as much or more than Tolkien, but he is simply too recent to judge the historical impact of his work.
Perhaps he's getting there. The New York Times has already called him "The American Tolkien." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 17:30:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
As it happens, I like G.R.R. Martin just as much or more than Tolkien, but he is simply too recent to judge the historical impact of his work.
Perhaps he's getting there. The New York Times has already called him "The American Tolkien."
Meh. A lot of writers get a lot of fancy descriptions from a lot of sources. If G.R.R. Martin is called this by a lot of people 50 years from now, I'll buy it. For now, a single newspaper's praise isn't all that. Lots of authors have been favorably compared to Tolkien. Time will tell which of them can hold that comparison.
Nothing against Martin; I'm enjoying Game of Thrones right now. I'm just saying one journalistic blurb does not make a convincing case. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 17:46:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
As it happens, I like G.R.R. Martin just as much or more than Tolkien, but he is simply too recent to judge the historical impact of his work.
Perhaps he's getting there. The New York Times has already called him "The American Tolkien."
Meh. A lot of writers get a lot of fancy descriptions from a lot of sources. If G.R.R. Martin is called this by a lot of people 50 years from now, I'll buy it. For now, a single newspaper's praise isn't all that. Lots of authors have been favorably compared to Tolkien. Time will tell which of them can hold that comparison.
Nothing against Martin; I'm enjoying Game of Thrones right now. I'm just saying one journalistic blurb does not make a convincing case.
If it comes from NY Times, it bears some credibility. Though not absolute, of course ---no newspaper has that kind of power.
I cannot call myself a Martin's fan. I am not exactly into low-magic fantasy. But partiality aside, I would still call him one of the best fantasists writing today. His world-building is impressive; his characters aren't easy to fade from the reader's memory; and his understanding of what a mess politics is, clearly shows in every novel. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 23:31:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
As it happens, I like G.R.R. Martin just as much or more than Tolkien, but he is simply too recent to judge the historical impact of his work.
Perhaps he's getting there. The New York Times has already called him "The American Tolkien."
Meh. A lot of writers get a lot of fancy descriptions from a lot of sources. If G.R.R. Martin is called this by a lot of people 50 years from now, I'll buy it.
I don't buy it, personally. And I think that's because it's only partly what has constituted the legacy of Tolkien.
Tolkien presented a world of myth and legend with such extensive background -- something which most among the industry of fiction had never seen or read. Practically every fiction writer from that time on has been borrowing from that legacy -- in either lesser or greater degrees.
Tolkien largely gave us all something new from myths of the old world. It will be very hard for another "Tolkien" to rise elsewhere as I see it, because most of what has come since that time, still utilises a great deal of what Tolkien brought to the genre.
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2011 : 16:50:46
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After scanning the first page, I see there's no point in reading the next seven. Arguments about "who is the best" are really arguments about "who ought to be your favorite," and that's a silly argument to have.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2011 : 17:32:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
As it happens, I like G.R.R. Martin just as much or more than Tolkien, but he is simply too recent to judge the historical impact of his work.
Perhaps he's getting there. The New York Times has already called him "The American Tolkien."
Meh. A lot of writers get a lot of fancy descriptions from a lot of sources. If G.R.R. Martin is called this by a lot of people 50 years from now, I'll buy it.
I don't buy it, personally. And I think that's because it's only partly what has constituted the legacy of Tolkien.
Tolkien presented a world of myth and legend with such extensive background -- something which most among the industry of fiction had never seen or read. Practically every fiction writer from that time on has been borrowing from that legacy -- in either lesser or greater degrees.
Tolkien largely gave us all something new from myths of the old world. It will be very hard for another "Tolkien" to rise elsewhere as I see it, because most of what has come since that time, still utilises a great deal of what Tolkien brought to the genre.
People change. The world changes. The standards of today might be the rubbish of tomorrow. Maybe sometime in the future---however near or far---Tolkienish fantasy would be so outdated; replaced by steampunk fiction---a time when the standards of fantasy literature are based on the works of the authors who first popularized steampunk. [Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not exactly a fan of steampunk. That's just for the sake of an example.] |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 01:08:24
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
After scanning the first page, I see there's no point in reading the next seven. Arguments about "who is the best" are really arguments about "who ought to be your favorite," and that's a silly argument to have.
Which is partly the reason why I've often been so hesitant to allow these scrolls to continue. It's a similar topic to the semi-frequent "this vs that" scrolls that pop up here at Candlekeep.
They're heavily subjective, and usually don't provide much in the way of "actual" answers.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 03:12:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
People change. The world changes. The standards of today might be the rubbish of tomorrow. Maybe sometime in the future---however near or far---Tolkienish fantasy would be so outdated; replaced by steampunk fiction---a time when the standards of fantasy literature are based on the works of the authors who first popularized steampunk. [Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not exactly a fan of steampunk. That's just for the sake of an example.]
Which means, of course, that whoever wears the crown today may not be the same as who wears the crown tomorrow -- which makes discussing it a rather pointless exercise. |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 03:27:33
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I would be in favor of bringing Terry Brooks onto the list of candidates for all of his works. However, I'm sure most of you know his Shannara series. Whilst I agree Tolkien brought a new twist to the old world myths and legends as, I believe, Sage pointed out, I would also submit that Brooks took those same legends and gave them his own personal twist to explain how the various races came about for his series.
Both worlds were essentially similar in design, being not an entirely designed globe but a series of 'lands' where the edges of the map leave you wondering, "What's over there?" Also, the main evils were similar as well, having essentially control of one land and an ambiguous personna.
I have to admit one drawback to this suggestion is that Tolkien published his LotR in 1954 while Brooks published the first work in his Shannara series in 1977. So the arguement made that "Practically every fiction writer from that on has been borrowing from that legacy...." could have some impact on this as well.
Cheers!
One more thought, all kings reign comes to an end at some point Wooly. You just hope it's not by Regicide. |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 04:32:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
People change. The world changes. The standards of today might be the rubbish of tomorrow. Maybe sometime in the future---however near or far---Tolkienish fantasy would be so outdated; replaced by steampunk fiction---a time when the standards of fantasy literature are based on the works of the authors who first popularized steampunk. [Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not exactly a fan of steampunk. That's just for the sake of an example.]
Which means, of course, that whoever wears the crown today may not be the same as who wears the crown tomorrow -- which makes discussing it a rather pointless exercise.
Not quite. That's like saying it's pointless to ask "What do you like about this novel or that?" just because of the possibility that you may dislike or hate it in the future [due to change of tastes, mental maturity, or whatever]. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 04:39:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
I would be in favor of bringing Terry Brooks onto the list of candidates for all of his works. However, I'm sure most of you know his Shannara series. Whilst I agree Tolkien brought a new twist to the old world myths and legends as, I believe, Sage pointed out, I would also submit that Brooks took those same legends and gave them his own personal twist to explain how the various races came about for his series.
Both worlds were essentially similar in design, being not an entirely designed globe but a series of 'lands' where the edges of the map leave you wondering, "What's over there?" Also, the main evils were similar as well, having essentially control of one land and an ambiguous personna.
I have to admit one drawback to this suggestion is that Tolkien published his LotR in 1954 while Brooks published the first work in his Shannara series in 1977. So the arguement made that "Practically every fiction writer from that on has been borrowing from that legacy...." could have some impact on this as well.
Cheers!
One more thought, all kings reign comes to an end at some point Wooly. You just hope it's not by Regicide.
While I am not in favor of Brooks, I must say you did raise some good points, Wolfhound75.
Just because someone else might wear the crown tomorrow does not mean we can't discuss who might be wearing it today. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 17:14:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
People change. The world changes. The standards of today might be the rubbish of tomorrow. Maybe sometime in the future---however near or far---Tolkienish fantasy would be so outdated; replaced by steampunk fiction---a time when the standards of fantasy literature are based on the works of the authors who first popularized steampunk. [Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not exactly a fan of steampunk. That's just for the sake of an example.]
Which means, of course, that whoever wears the crown today may not be the same as who wears the crown tomorrow -- which makes discussing it a rather pointless exercise.
Not quite. That's like saying it's pointless to ask "What do you like about this novel or that?" just because of the possibility that you may dislike or hate it in the future [due to change of tastes, mental maturity, or whatever].
But your original question was about All Time, not today. Which does make it moot. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 17:21:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But your original question was about All Time, not today. Which does make it moot.
Wooly, we are microscopic specks of cosmic dust that exist for less than a blink of astronomical time. Nothing we do will last; in the larger scheme of things.
Any usage of 'all time' by a mortal ought to be understood as the rhetorical hyperbole it is. In other news, the sun does not really rise in the mornings, the sky is not blue and death does not come for us all. These are all convenient fictions in line with our personal experiences, patterns of speech that do not describe a scientific reality, but are perfectly understandable to other humans. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 17:48:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But your original question was about All Time, not today. Which does make it moot.
Wooly, we are microscopic specks of cosmic dust that exist for less than a blink of astronomical time. Nothing we do will last; in the larger scheme of things.
Any usage of 'all time' by a mortal ought to be understood as the rhetorical hyperbole it is. In other news, the sun does not really rise in the mornings, the sky is not blue and death does not come for us all. These are all convenient fictions in line with our personal experiences, patterns of speech that do not describe a scientific reality, but are perfectly understandable to other humans.
So it's fine to ask to ask about the best that will ever exist, at the same time acknowledging it could change tomorrow? That makes sense.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Nov 2011 17:48:53 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 18:00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So it's fine to ask to ask about the best that will ever exist, at the same time acknowledging it could change tomorrow? That makes sense.
On Rigel-8, where you spider-beasts originate, do they not have rhetorical devices that do not mean exactly what they appear to mean?
On Earth, among humans, 'best of all time' means 'the best so far, while acknowledging the possibility that it could indeed change at some point in the future and also, one day no humans or fantasy writers will exist and at that point this question will be moot'.
Also, I, for one, welcome our new spider-beast overlords. |
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Topic |
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Who should wear the Crown?
