| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 21:43:45
|
So I used the search tool here, but couldn't find any discussions of Cullen Kordamant, the missing Grand Patriarch of Oghma. Did we ever learn, in any source, what happened to him? The only tidbits I'm aware of come from 2E sources, simply stating that he vanished during the Time of Troubles.
His disappearance caused a schism in the faith, as Oghma did not name a successor. The former church of the patriarch, in Procampur, named a sort of regent while waiting to learn what happened (and many in that church assumed that he died and became a proxy of Oghma). But the Oghamyte church in Sembia broke with Procampur and actually named a new Patriarch of their own, who the orthodox church refused to accept. All through 3E I was waiting to learn more.
So what happened to Cullen Kordamant, anyone know for sure? I'm bringing this up now, as Cordell has a new book, Sword of the Gods, that sheds a few details on what happened to the heretical (?) Sembian church: they relocated to Cormyr as the "Oghmanyte Church in Exile" and were considered heretics for 100 years or so. Then, once their Grand Patriarch stepped down, his whole group packed up and left for Akanūl where they had another schism that broke off and used some Imaskari device to tell the future.
I haven't read the book, but this all seemed very bizarre when I read the wiki. Anyone read this yet, and can provide more details? Or does anyone have any info on the Orthodox church or the fate of Kordamant? I feel like my understanding of Oghmanyte faith has been twisted around...
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
|
|
Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 21:51:12
|
| hmmm. If it wasn't covered in a novel, I'd say go for the Ask Ed scroll; it might still be worth asking, but you're liable to be met by Power Word: NDA. The realms are full of loose ends, ideas that fizzled, were over-written or mutated. Part of the character :) |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
 |
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 01:48:16
|
Just seems really weird and unfortunate that we never learned more. Loose ends are completely understandable with minor gods and regional affairs, but this has a big impact on the Realms-wide faith of Oghma (a greater deity) and it's something that not only Oghma could've cleared up (by appointing a new Patriarch), it's something that he should have cleared up (being the deity of knowledge).
Having withheld knowledge -and- allowing a heretical splinter faith to operate for over 100+ years -- both seem hugely antithetical to Oghma's primary philosophy. I don't get it.
 |
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 08 Jun 2011 01:52:03 |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:18:02
|
I like the fact that it was never revealed. Just like in real life, people go missing and we sometimes never find out what happened to them. We presume they're dead (otherwise they would have made contact), though this is not always the case. In their absence, people pick up their lives and move on... sometimes they hold out hope that they're still alive and will return, and other times they just acknowledge that the individual is likely dead and move on accordingly.
There is no reason, especially with all the magic that exists, that the Realms should be any different. If the knowledge were revealed to us then it clearly paints one side of the schism as right and the other wrong. Leaving it ambiguous creates a gray area which only enhances the mystery.
As for your comments regarding Oghma, well... there are several possibilities. The first possibility is that Oghma himself may not know the truth. The second possibility is that he knows the truth, but because of additional knowledge he has it is necessary to temporarily withhold the information until such a time where EVERYTHING can be revealed (thus painting a clear picture of the truth). The third possibility, and the one I prefer, is that the gods sometimes do things that are simply mysterious and make no sense at all.
----
After doing a quick search, here are some comments I found by Ed / THO regarding mystery in the Realms and the Gods:
"On the other hand, mortals can never perfectly understand the gods, because mortals can only see things with mortal perceptions and senses." - Ed Greenwood on May 1st 2004 responding to a question about Mystra's Chosen
"It's hard for mortals to know the motives of gods. All we can do is endlessly examine and speculate about their actions (or what we're TOLD are their actions), and draw our own conclusions." - Ed Greenwood on May 4th 2004 responding to a question regarding Elves and their deities
"Very well said, Faraer! I have heard Ed and many other writers (usually at panels at various conventions) talk about the art of what should be left out of the story when writing fiction, and although this runs directly counter to the fan's lust for details (doubled in gamers, for obvious reasons of play utility), usually the writer's instincts regarding what's left unsaid SHOULD win." - THO on April 13th 2010
"In the case of the gods, Beowulf has hit upon Ed's approach: eschew the Graeco-Roman view of making the gods "larger than life mortals with very human foibles" in favour of keeping them VERY mysterious. .... Ed prefers manifestations rather than avatars striding around talking and doing things. An example of a manifestation: a worshipper of Lathander wonders aloud if an action is right, or a battle should be joined - and a rosy glow appears out of nowhere to surround their weapon, or point the way. Keeping things mystical avoids all of the problems of disrespect or incorrect divine details Beowulf mentions, makes for better roleplaying, and really makes us regard the gods as special." - THO on July 20, 2004
"The short answer to all of your questions, I'm afraid, is that "no one knows." Mortals in the Realms only know what priests, seers, sages, and various mad-wits tell them about matters cosmological, and as I've said before: even the gods lie.
We don't KNOW the origin of Ao or any of the "elder" gods, or what they did or didn't do or create. We have been TOLD some things, a few of them contradictory and none of them verified by any measure that doesn't involve (at some point) faith.
What's more, wise mortals have long ago realized that they can never know the truth. That is, they have no way of learning more except by trusting a tale told by someone, at some point.
To underline this:
There are sages of Faerūn who believe that the Inner and Outer Planes were around long before any of the gods (and uber-beings, like Ao) we have heard of.
There are Faerūnian scholars of matters divine who believe Shar is a relatively "young" or recent deity, and much of what is now said of her "dawn doings" are more or less flattering falsehoods put about by her priests to make her seem more powerful, or somehow "essential."
There are sages of Faerūn who believe that all deities create stars or moons or other celestial bodies, because they define godhood as the enacted ability to successfully carry off such creations (working alone). There are other sages who dismiss this notion as pure fantasy, and assert divinity has nothing (necessarily) to do with such activities at all.
Similar disputes mar almost every tale of the deeds of gods, particularly when interacting with other gods. The priests of Lathander see this event far differently than the clergy of Shar do, while the priests of Umberlee offer as "gospel truth" a tale about a particular storm that contradicts entirely a similar "gospel truth" tale told by the clergy of Talos . . . and so on, for literally hundreds of instances.
So we simply don't know.
If you're asking me as creator of the Realms what the "truth" is, I'm sorry, but I'm deliberately leaving that mysterious (as I always have done). I'm no longer the sole designer of the Realms, and haven't been for some twenty-five years; that mystery is part of the essential "design room" that all designers need to tell future tales.
None of us know the truth (in any detail) about the origins of the real universe, yet we live our lives anyway, in spite of that - - and, I think, richer lives BECAUSE of that. We all need mystery and wonder, and part of providing Realmslore here at the Keep and since I started writing about the Realms back in 1966 has been a "slow tease" of revealing this little bit and then that little bit, but clinging to an air of mystery.
It's what inspires gamers such as Eric Boyd and Steven Schend and George Krashos and Brian Cortijo to "fill in gaps yet provide us with new mysteries," and allows fiction writers like Elaine Cunningham and Bob Salvatore and Erik Scott de Bie and Paul Kemp and dozens more the room they need to bring their own new characters to life, and at the same time enrich the shared sandbox for us all.
Not that I'm faulting you for asking. We all ache to know the truths behind existence, the origins of places and things we love, to be "in the know." I'd LOVE to give you full and exhaustive answers to your questions.
Yet I can't. If you love the glorious play of light through a magnificent stained glass window, do you smash that window just to see what's on the other side of it?
Well, we all have to arrive at our own answers to that one, but: * I * don't.
Sorry.
Truly." - Ed Greenwood answering a question about the cosmology of the Realms on February 25th 2011 |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 18:10:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I like the fact that it was never revealed.
-I agree, and it bugged me to no end that 3e cleaned up a lot of those loose ends, like definitley naming who killed Aravae, whose killer had been a mystery up to that point, and a mystery that looked designed to never be solved (magic preventing investigators from getting leads, etc.). And then, in Lost Empires of Faerūn, it casually states who killed her. 
-That said, though, in this situation, we could have used more information on the whole thing because, as was said, the man was the leader of a church, a large one at that, and there are some pretty big consequences/changes to the faith, because of his disappearance. Aravae's death, we find out what happens afterward in some detail, to Myth Drannor itself, the residents of the city, how it's ruled, etc. Here, not so much, and it would be welcome- the mystery doesn't even need to be solved, necessarily, either. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 19:57:09
|
It's not that I dislike mysteries. The various mysteries and secrets of the gods are fun and fascinating, and make for enriched play.
It's not just about a random loose end, which remains unsolved and people can just go on and continue to wonder.
It's not even that the gods occasionally lie (or perhaps more accurately) withhold information until it makes sense.
In this case, for me, it's something glaringly gigantic that is quite literally problematic for Oghma's faith and his faithful. He's the greater god of knowledge, and suppression of information is something he fights against. The mystery isn't about some random priest's disappearance, but of someone who was quite literally at the pinnacle of his faithful. In many ways, he was like their Pope. When the Pope goes missing, and when you ask the god of knowledge, "hey, what happened?" and you get not only silence but the allowed splintering off of a heretical faith, that's problematic.
Honestly, I'd have been happy with a planetar or other celestial / proxy saying "Oghma isn't ready to say," or "it's complicated" along with Oghma naming a new Patriarch. Or having him say, "keep the regent you've elected, Oghma's not ready to name a new Patriarch for a good while." But we, and more importantly, Oghma's church got nothing. From any other deity, fine. But to have Oghma remain so tight lipped that he gave his faithful absolutely nothing? Something doesn't jive there. Frankly, not naming a new Patriarch -even- if he doesn't feel it's the right time to reveal the fate of the missing one just seems wrong on many levels.
Especially now, in the age where the sheer number of one's faithful determine a deity's power, it's bizarre that Oghma would be silent on this for 100+ years.
Another way of saying why this is frustrating: if the idea was to have a loose end for me to build an adventure around, "Oghma's church wants you to find out what happened to their Patriarch" then that'd be great. But without naming a new Patriarch, or saying anything, how then do I understand Oghma's faith? Are the priests all lackadaisical about a missing Patriarch? It's just plain odd, because it calls into question what I thought (as a DM) what Oghma was all about. And if it makes me question Oghma, what then of his faithful?
Oghma and his faithful fought HARD against the misinformation and lies promoted by Cyric and that Cyrinishad tome, right? And yet we're to believe that Oghma thinks it's okay to remain silent on two major issues within his own faith? He could very simply appoint a new Patriarch, or even just say "not ready yet" for either the selection or about the "reveal" on the last one. But he's silent.
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 08 Jun 2011 20:08:11 |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 22:12:57
|
I certainly understand the point of view both you and Lord Karsus are expressing. I believe you both have valid points; our difference in opinion comes from how we approach the situation. (And perhaps even more broadly the deities themselves.)
When I look at the deities and their churches as a whole nothing is ever quite 100% certain. The only thing that is absolutely certain is that the gods exist, but that is where the certainty ends. Even the information we think we know could be completely wrong. From what we've witnessed, and certainly what the majority of his church have witnessed, Oghma appears as the God of Knowledge. However, this is how his faithful expect him to appear. Who is to say that Oghma is not more complex than we believe? Who is to say that he's not also going under some other identity elsewhere in the Realms - a identity that could be the complete opposite from the Oghma we currently understand and know?
Just as an example, we know Oghma is also known as Curna in Durpar, Estagund, and Var the Golden. In this incarnation Oghma is female and is worshiped as a goddess of wisdom.
As a goddess of wisdom rather than just a god of knowledge, why should he reveal the truth to his church? What do they -LEARN- from the truth? Perhaps Oghma is testing them, and perhaps both sides have failed and Oghma is waiting until a time when a truly worthy person steps forward and when that time comes, he'll name them the new Patriarch.
After all, knowledge is important, but so is what you do with that knowledge - or in this case, the lack of knowledge.
Or perhaps Oghma intends to tell them and has just decided to temporarily hold off for some unforeseen reason. Of course, being immortal he lacks the understanding that temporary for a mortal and temporary for a deity could be thousands of years. After all, whose to say Oghma's mind - due to the fact that he is a deity, and an old one at that - is not completely alien compared to that of his faithful? Perhaps he's already told them in some fashion, or left clues for them to follow, and to Oghma it seems blatantly obvious but he can't understand why his worshipers aren't getting it.
That Oghma's true mind could be alien to that of mortals may seem unsatisfactory, but that is largely because we like to give things anthropomorphic traits that we can understand. The mortals of Faerūn are no different. Thus, Oghma may be truly alien in ways that are impossible to know, and because mortal minds cannot processes the true nature of Oghma they transform him into something they can better understand. We do this to things all the time - other animals in particular.
We look at a cat, examine its actions, and then may ascribe human-like personality traits to the cat. Perhaps we use it to justify their actions for example, exclaiming that a cat is lazy. ...but is that cat really lazy? Lazy in human terms, perhaps, but in cat terms? Perhaps, in its own mind, the cat is perfectly justified in its actions... or perhaps the cat does not seek any justification at all because seeking justification itself would be alien to the cat.
The gods are the same way. Mortals look at them and assume that they must act in some way, because we like logic and consistency. Perhaps a deity aids you in some seemingly trivial way in some trivial matter. Later, as you progress on a related journey, you REALLY need the help of that deity again. Yet, that help is not forthcoming. The inevitable question arises: Why did the deity help you with the trivial matter and not the more pressing and serious matter?
As humans, we'd immediately seek some sort of justification some logical consistency in the deities actions. Perhaps, we determine, that the deity foresaw if you were not aided on the trivial task that getting to your current point wouldn't have been possible. Or perhaps something - like another deity - prevented them from taking action! Yes, that's it... the deity totally would have helped if they could have... but they couldn't because another deity wouldn't let them. The truth? Perhaps the deity just happened to hear your prayer, was bored, decided to answer it, and then immediately lost interest. Of course, this assumes that a deity could even become bored.
When it comes to the gods, we don't even know if the deity we're viewing is really a separate deity or an aspect of another deity. Who is to say that those who follow the Dark Moon Heresy (those who believe that Selūne and Shar are two faces of the same deity) are incorrect? Obviously, those who believe differently will disagree, but can they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the other side is wrong? Even if Shar and Selūne appeared and denied every word of the Dark Moon Heresy, that still is not proof, because as Ed pointed out - gods can and do lie.
It's also possible that the truth is hidden even from them.
It could be that all deities in Realmspace are really aspects of Lord Ao, which would explain why he's so powerful. The gods could no more defeat him because they are all - in some way both large and small - aspects of him.
The most realistic and satisfying option is that Oghma is testing his faithful in some way, and until that test ends or they succeed he's withholding knowledge. Perhaps he views this as necessary for them to achieve an even greater knowledge.
Even this may prove unsatisfying, but the simple answer is that we don't know and there isn't any answer. Oghma had his reasons, they made sense to him, and at the end of the day that's what mattered.
|
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 23:19:59
|
Sorry, Aldrick. I get where you're coming from, I do. But I don't see the deities as "unknowable, unfathomable, and alien" in the extreme. The problem with a deity that's a complete and total cypher is that you'd never get any consistency in belief or practice. And Oghma's church not only is large and has codified beliefs, Oghma himself has named patriarchs / leaders in the past.
It's one thing to have widely varying opinions within the general community. That's totally fine, and should be that way. But within a church, when priests are high enough level to commune directly with their god(s), or at least with agents of their god(s), things like "unknowbale and alien" break down. Sure, you're not going to see long-reaching plans and intentions, or the reasons behind a deity's most complex machinations. But the choice of a patriarch is a pretty basic thing.
Again, Oghma could say "not time yet" or something similar. But it's apparently been silence. It's the silence that seems wrong for him, because of who he is.
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 11:28:17
|
Everything here hinges upon a single question: What is the true nature of the gods? Are they super-human mortals, basically akin to uber wizards? Or are they beings of a wholly different nature than mortals entirely?
Then there is the sub-question, which will never be answered: What is the interdependent relationship between mortals and the divine?
If Oghma is basically a human with super powers, then you'd be correct. His actions make no sense at all. This is basically the Greco-Roman model of divinity, the gods are just like humans but far more awesome and powerful.
If Oghma is something beyond mortals then all bets are off. He is to a large degree unknowable and alien. You could no more understand or know Oghma than you could understand any animal in nature.
You may observe Oghma - as you observe an animal - and then ascribe human motivations and logic to their actions. However, that does not mean the motivations and logic you give to them are -THEIR- motivations and logic. And things are further complicated by the fact that Oghma is far BEYOND anything that you could actually observe in totality the way that you could an animal. Even in the best case scenario, what you'd witness is a tiny fraction, and without knowing the whole, the part you see lacks the proper context.
Put another way...
Let us say that Oghma has decided to manifest himself to interact with you - a mortal. (I am using 'he' very loosely here, because Oghma is a being beyond mortal gender.) What form should he take? Keep in mind that he is (as far as we know) the very manifestation of knowledge, inspiration, and invention. Should he appear as a floating scroll with ever-shifting words? Should he appear as - literally endless - walls of words that suspend themselves mid-air, which ultimately resolves itself into an ASCII art-like face of a wise old man? Or does he simply appear as a devilishly handsome young man with an impeccable sense of style - his tasteful glasses hint at a refined intelligence and elegance, but his wicked smile hints at 'I know every position of the Kama Sutra by heart, plus three hundred million yet to be invented positions!' (Well not so much hints, as when he smiles your mind is literally filled with this knowledge about him.)
All this assumes that Oghma can even CHOOSE his own form. Nothing says that his form does not conform or contort to what mortals expect him to appear as (or perhaps... NEED him to appear as)... thus, if you imagine Oghma will appear as a giant floating book that is exactly what Oghma looks like to you. However, the guy next to you could believe that Oghma is a woman who imparts knowledge via kinky monkey sex.
So while you read the tome, your friend is having his brains banged out by Oghma. Of course, to everyone around you - both of you are standing completely still, glossy eyed and slack jawed - assuming, of course, it doesn't all happen within fractions of a second (yet feel like hours or days pass).
In the end regardless of the interaction you've received - you were not looking at, conversing with, or interacting with all that Oghma is. You may not have even been seeing an illusion that Oghma was projecting into your mind. Rather, the sheer ESSENSE of Oghma - knowledge, inspiration, and invention made material - bypassed your eyes and little mortal brain entirely. In a desperate hope to keep its sanity your mind merely registered Oghma as the closest and safest thing possible, and so you saw him in a form that you could understand. (Which likely confirmed what you believed Oghma would look like all along.)
The truth is: You cannot, and can never, grasp the true form of Oghma, and if you tried you'd be driven insane from the attempt.
Because of this Oghma appears and confirms what you believe to be true about him. However, he has also appeared and confirmed what the other guy - your friend - believed to be true. Assuming you relate the tale to each other, which version of Oghma is true and which is false? Can they both be true at the same time? Was Oghma warping reality itself or did your minds merely conjure up a reality that you could understand - allowing you to interact with the deity without being driven insane?
Maybe you wouldn't like this explanation. So how would you feel if Oghma just said to you: 'I am sorry, but I do not really look like a giant book with ever-shifting words. I don't look like anything you'd recognize. You can't see me. I don't sound like this. I don't sound like anything you'd recognize. The truth is, I'm beyond you and your mortal experiences. I take this form because you believe me to look like this and it makes you comfortable. If I am incomprehensible or vague, it is because you perceive and believe me to be this way.'
I think, in the end, that is how the deities truly are - what we know about them, what we're told about them, are what mortals believe and perceive about them. Just take this snippet from Power of Faerūn written by Ed Greenwood and Eric L. Boyd, wrote on page 48 about Lolth and the Seldarine (yet it applies to all deities):
"Even in a world wrapped in the Weave, religion and the nature of the divine remain enigmas to the mortal world. Faerūnian philosophers are uncertain as to why the actions of a small number of mortals assume great significance in the epic conflicts of the gods and the actions of a large number of other mortals do not. Many religious myths seem to reflect the history of the mortal world, yet the cause and effect between the two is often unclear. For example, did the betrayal of Corellon by Araushnee (Lolth) and her subsequent banishment to the Abyss trigger the descent of the drow, or did the internecine battles of the Fair Folk that resulted in the descent trigger a similar transformation among the Seldarine?"
This is the sub-question that I spoke of in the beginning of my post. Only when the true nature of the deities is understood (are they alien beings or merely super-humans); can we then even begin to understand the intertwined relationship between the deities and mortals.
If or when both of these questions are answered, your question as to why Oghma did not choose to reveal the truth to his faithful will start to become clearer. Otherwise, it devolves into speculation such as: He is merely testing his followers, and so far none have been proven worthy. When one is proven worthy he shall appoint a new Patriarch.
Of course, 'worthy' could mean an individual who finds a way to reunite the fractured cult, and begins to lead the reunified cult of Oghma toward greatness. Naturally, the mortals would view such an individual as worthy of being their Patriarch, and as a result Oghma names him Patriarch BECAUSE his followers believe him to be so.
Conversely, Oghma does not name a new Patriarch BECAUSE his mortal followers are divided about who should replace the former one.
-----
To make things clear, Faiths & Avatars is the primary source for this conflict. Here is what it says, verbatim:
"The entire church hierarchy is devoted to the spirit of one man, the Grand Patriarch of Oghma, who until the Time of Troubles made his home in Procampur and was recognized as being the "voice of Oghma." During the Time of Troubles the Grand Patriarch disappeared without a trace. Answers from Oghma have been conflicting and confusing as to what happened to him. The Patriarch's house in Procampur has become a shrine to Oghma. Until the Grand Patriarch's fate is known, the church is running without an ultimate head, and it has split into several factions and sub-factions.
The largest faction is the Orthodox Church of Oghma, which does not recognize anyone using the title Patriarch since its hierarchy holds that the Patriarch who vanished during the Time of Troubles is still serving Oghma. Perhaps the Patriarch is on another plane of existence or has ascended to a semi-divine state, but nevertheless, until Oghma says otherwise, he is the only rightful Patriarch.
The second largest faction is the Church of Oghma in Sembia, which is distinguished mainly in that it believes a new Patriarch has been appointed and that all knowledge should be tested and proven to be worthy of dissemination before it is given out into general release. This faction is joined in its stance on the church hierarchy, but not on theology, by the Pursuers of Pure Knowledge in Mintar. (The Pursuers of Pure Knowledge have met a great many setbacks recently due to Mintar being taken over by Teldorn Darkhope, Lord Knight Imperceptor of the Dark Lord, who claims to serve Bane reborn and has killed all who oppose him openly. The church opposes him, therefore, covertly.)
To date, there has been a tenuous cooperation between most regional churches, but a recent rift between the Church of Oghma in Sembia and the Orthodoxy in Cormyr has caused relations to be broken off totally between the church in those nations. Loremasters of the one nation are not welcome in the others' temples and vice versa. The heart of this problem seems to have been caused by assumptions behind the keynote remarks of one Sembian loremaster at a Sembian arts festival in which an extensive Cormyrean Oghmanyte contingent had come to participate."
So, just to be clear, it seems that Oghma has not been silent on the matter. F&A states: "Answers from Oghma have been conflicting and confusing as to what happened to him."
But who is to say the truth is not: Mortals themselves are divided about who should be the new Patriarch, and some mortals do not even desire a Patriarch to head up the church. Since this is what mortals believe, they've received visions and such from Oghma that merely confirm what they believe to be true. Therefore, for the Church of Oghma in Sembia, they want to appoint a new Patriarch and have all knowledge tested and proven before it is disseminated and given out to the general public. So Oghma has appeared to them, and told them to do exactly that.
However, for those in Procampur, who view the Grand Patriarch as a semi-divine being and likely treat and serve him as such, Oghma has appeared to them and told them to continue their devotions to the former Patriarch.
If this is true, did Oghma lie... or did he merely reflect what mortals wanted to believe? Or perhaps Oghma told them the truth, and mortals either unable or unwilling to comprehend or accept the truth - heard and understood something else entirely? (As a result, it becomes the flaw of mortals and not a flaw in Oghma himself.)
However, F&A is very clear that Oghma has not been silent on the matter. His faithful are merely interpreting Oghma's words and actions as conflicting and confusing. This does not mean that they actually ARE these things, merely that mortals are interpreting them that way. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 09 Jun 2011 11:38:55 |
|
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 15:03:29
|
Knowledge needs a sense of wonder, I think Oghma understands this quite well. Every answer evokes three more questions and all that. So by instilling some mystery in his churches internal dealings he drives his own faithful to find the truth; generating more and more faith within Oghma's portfolio of knowledge in the end.
Cullen Kordamants disappearance is a sacrifice Oghma was willing to make. That Oghma requires this sacrifice of his most foremost highpriest to generate the reinvogoration of his church with renewed activity in searching for the right answers is quite telling. It perhaps points to his displeasure in the ongoing state of affairs within his clergy. Exactly what displeases him, or if he really is pissed, is only comprehensible for Cullen and Oghma themselves to know. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 17:24:46
|
Well, I asked THO about Kordamant's disappearance over in the "Ask Ed" thread, and she had some really interesting and cool things to say.
I'm pretty satisfied with her answer, although of course it brings up additional questions. 
@Aldrick: you bring up excellent points, but a major problem that complicates things IMO is that the gods have been portrayed both ways. Both in the anthropomorphic Greek/Norse style and also in the ineffable/unknowable style. All the issues you raise have merit, but given that the gods are inconsistently portrayed by different authors means that we ultimately have to "punt" and choose what we like best.
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 09 Jun 2011 17:30:22 |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 18:50:12
|
Yes, and I view that as unfortunate. It's a strong lack of consistency. 
However, I do feel that Ed has attempted to portray the gods in such a manner, or at least had hoped they would be portrayed in such a manner as I described. (As illustrated in my first response to your OP.)
The only way to reconcile the two is to claim that the anthropomorphic Greek/Norse style of portraying of the Gods were approximations that would best make sense. In other words, it would be impossible to tell a story involving the deities were they not portrayed in such a way.
As a result, such portrayals are what mortals BELIEVE to have happened - at least the mortals aware / involved in the events of the story. It's what they would have seen or experienced were they there witnessing it; not necessarily what actually happened. |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Cullen Kordamant, Grand Patriarch of Oghma
