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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 27 May 2011 : 00:28:14
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I was thinking after contributing to the mythal post, that if magic can indeed exist in a zone where the weave or shadow weave is none existent, what would one have to do to "learn" how to cast his wizard spells there??
And if you do not use the weave then you are not governed by the ban and those two put together makes for a dangerous cocktail.
PS: Im not interested in the obvious answer: Epic spells!!!
So please scribes elaborate!
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2011 : 00:37:02
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There's also brief mention of an obscure Halruaan technique known as table-magic.
Link to the topic in question. Cheers. |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2011 : 06:42:21
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Nicolai, I once knew a magic-user, he would prefer to remain anonymous, so we'll just call him 'BC' for short.
Early in his training as a wizard, he learned a spell called 'Shield'. 'Shield' generated a small plane of force which deflected missles directed at the caster.
One day, whilst in Waterdeep, he encountered a strange, 'hammer-head shark' shaped ship docked therein. Perpetually curious, BC approached the strange ship, and asked a nearby coxswain on board about it's origin. The coxswain introduced BC to the ship's Captain, Eravaen Kordesx, who stated that BC could sail with them, if he was a spellcaster, and would pay him 4gp daily for a 100 days of service. A fine salary, BC thought, and so joined immediately. Captain Kordesx indicated to BC their first stop was at H'Catha, then to Bral, and finally the Fflanaes of Oerth. BC had never heard of any of these places, but as an adventurer, never let on.
And boy, was he ever surprised when the hammership, once a few leagues off Waterdeep, lifted into the air, out into the Sea of Night, and beyond! He visited the Spindle of H'catha, threw dice with Prince Andru of Bral, and climbed the Ulek side of the Lortmirl Mountains.
While on Oerth, BC cast his 'Shield' spell often. However, he once said to me, "Twas strange, to cast spells without Mystra's Weave, on Oerth. It felt... syrupy. I was most glad to be home-again."
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I doubt that helps, friend Nicolai, but there you have it! |
Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 27 May 2011 06:43:01 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2011 : 15:42:59
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| Psionics function outside the Weave. You might also check out the Class Chronicles articles for warlocks, binders, shadowcasters, truenamers, and incarnum. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 00:24:21
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I was more thinking about converting the weave based spells into raw magic. And also the creation of spells that do not use the weave. Not so much using a different kind of magic.
If you could draw power not from the weave but what is beyond that, you should be able to create spells just like in the high days of netheril.
The question is just how does one convert his weave spell into spell drawing power from an outside source, and how would one go about creating new ones, again using this form of magic?
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 00:41:01
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Let me pose a question to you, Nicolai. How do wizards trained on Toril manage to cast their spells on worlds without the Weave, such as Perth, home of the Greyhawk setting?
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I was more thinking about converting the weave based spells into raw magic. And also the creation of spells that do not use the weave. Not so much using a different kind of magic.
If you could draw power not from the weave but what is beyond that, you should be able to create spells just like in the high days of netheril.
The question is just how does one convert his weave spell into spell drawing power from an outside source, and how would one go about creating new ones, again using this form of magic?
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Brace Cormaeril |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 01:12:07
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I've got absolutely no clue!
Firstly I want to say that Ive always thought that since the weave; with the exception of the shadow weave, that all magic drew on it. It didnt matter what magic you implored. As long as it was magic it used the weave. That might have been a narrow way to look at thing but none the less that was how I viewed it.
So I cant answer your question, Saer Cormaeril.
But I will say that, thinking about it Mordnekainen can/could also cast magic in both crystal spheres. Hmm...
This bring a whole other question to mind...
Why, if there is no weave, and no Mystra ban on Oerth, is magic not a lot more powerful there? Like the time of netheril or before, on Toril? |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 28 May 2011 01:19:06 |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 02:34:50
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The following is my opinion.
Quite the opposite. Mysta's Weave makes spellcasting easier. This is why the empires of magic on Toril were unparalleled. No other (published) worlds ever came close. Save Athas.
After the sundering of the Weave, only those most gifted spellcasters *survived*. And only the most gifted amongst these were able to cast spells. (Without the Weave!)
In short, if you want to cast spells which are greater than "9th level", "true dweomers" or whatever, you could simply develop your *own* spellcasting school. (Like Pluma, Table, truename, etc...)
"Withandaerian Dweomaercraft" has a nice ring to it, I think.
I think you might want to divorce yourself from 'rules editions' when thinking about these things, though. Nobody 'in the Realms' (to borrow a phrase from THO) refers to spells of "6th level", etc. Epic Magic, from the 3.x ruleset, does a great job of representing spells which exceed the scope of "1st-9th level". Maybe call Hellball a "10th level spell", Time Duplicate an "11th level spell", Vengeful Gaze of God a "12th level spell", and Summon:Bahamut "13th level", if you really need these designations.
See, spellcasters in the Realms, circa 1372, are already using these advanced spells. They don't refer to these spells as "11th level" or "Spellcraft Check DC:74" spells, so why should we?
Anyway, just my thoughts and opinions. Have fun, and good gaming! |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 07:20:04
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-Personally, I very much dislike Pluma Magic, Hishna Magic, Table Magic, and so on (especially Table Magic. It seems vaguely like tarot cards + ouiji boards + magic, which I don't think deserves any kind of 'special' category). The Weave is supposed to exist because raw magic is just so powerful (or was, if you assume that something in the 4e world changed about it) that it would "fry" people who utilized it's power (Spellfire is a manifestation of it, and look how powerful/dangerous that is). And yet, you have a bunch of traditions that fly in the face of that (without much explanation, either. Maybe if there was some more, I'd like those kinds of alternate magics better- probably not, though).
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Why, if there is no weave, and no Mystra ban on Oerth, is magic not a lot more powerful there? Like the time of netheril or before, on Toril?
-Every Crystalsphere is different. In some worlds, raw magic might be very powerful and wild, in and of itself, making some kind of intercessory barrier(the Weave) necessary for being able to harness it. In some worlds, it might not be, so those sorts of things are not necessary.
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Let me pose a question to you, Nicolai. How do wizards trained on Toril manage to cast their spells on worlds without the Weave, such as Perth, home of the Greyhawk setting?
-There is no 'concrete' answer, but I personally believe that it's a simple matter of adaptation that "automatically" happens. Although having your internal time clock screwed with by working nights, or changing time zones is a relatively minor thing, as compared to going from two different worlds where the laws of physics and metaphysics are different, but the effect is the same. Internally, you adapt. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 28 May 2011 07:25:12 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 10:52:10
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This is actually a massive discussion topic that could never end.
Let's start with the basics. Most of the multiple worlds stuff happened prior to 3E. During that time FR used the Great Wheel Cosmology. When transitioning to 3E things changed to the Great Tree. This was a retcon, though depending on your point of view... things might not have changed much. It's open to interpretation. Things changed again when FR made it into 4E.
Why is this important? Because we know for a fact that the Weave had an impact on the Planes, because of what GotHR stated happened to them in the Year of Blue Fire. This meant when you were traveling the planes you were still using the Weave. Does this mean if you traveled to another world that you were still using the Weave? Does it mean that a spell crafted using the Weave would ALWAYS use the Weave no matter where you were? Nobody knows the answer to this question, except perhaps Ed. However, even Ed could likely be overruled on this when it comes to other WotC settings.
So, since that is so murky, let's actually focus on what takes place in FR and not elsewhere. Most games aren't going to go planet hopping, and if they do then they're going to come up with whatever explanation works for them.
There is a whole chapter on Magic in the 3E FRCS pages 54 through 66. The basics of the Weave and Magic as traditionally known on Toril pre-Spellplague are defined there.
Using that information, and some information from other sources, here is what we know for a fact: The Weave extended throughout Toril and into the Planes. Everything upon Toril is infused with magical power, and this raw power is the essence of existence and creation itself. This magic is what is known as "Raw Magic" and it lays primarily "frozen" and "untapped."
With some notable exceptions, it is impossible for mortals to use raw magic. (As Lord Karsus pointed out Spellfire is one of those exceptions.) The Weave exists to allow spell casters to interact with raw magic in a way that is safe and beneficial.
The VAST majority of magic on Toril is linked to the Weave in some way. This ranges from spells, magic items, spell-like abilities, and even supernatural abilities such as a ghost's ability to walk through walls; though each of these use the Weave in different ways.
The Weave and Mystra were closely interwoven. One could not exist without the other.
Most importantly, and often overlooked, the Weave was used to power both arcane AND divine magic on Toril.
That being said the Weave has never been the only game in town. The most obvious competition it had was the Shadow Weave, but there were others such as the previously mentioned pluma and hishna magic of Maztica.
However, one thing has been overlooked and never made clear. Every single one of these magic types listed: the Weave, the Shadow Weave, Pluma, and Hishna are backed by divine powers. The Weave is backed by Mystra, the Shadow Weave by Shar, Pluma magic by Qotal, and Hishna magic by Zaltec. Not a single one of these magics operate independent of a deity.
Even Psionics had Auppenser, though it is debatable whether or not he actually had any influence over how Psionics worked in the Realms. It is also debatable whether or not Psionics used the Weave much like a Sorcerer. (Where as a Sorcerer used and accessed the Weave through sheer force of will, a Psionic manifester would access the Weave mentally with their mind.)
This is debatable because of the following passage in the FRCS: "Many types of magic - rune magic, shadow magic (not to be confused with the Shadow Weave), gem magic, elemental magic, even the elven high magic of old - have been spoken of down the years, but these are all merely different processes or paths to the same mastery of natural energies. This endless, ever-shifting web of forces is known as the Weave. Humans refer to the entity or awareness that is bound to the Weave of Toril as Mystra, and worship her as their goddess of magic."
There are two important things you should notice. The first is that it says: "Many types of magic..." and not ALL magic. The second is the fact that rune magic is listed among the magic types that draw upon the Weave. This is important because in the same chapter here is what is said about Rune Magic: "Rune magic is strongly tied to the dwarven and giant deities and is thus the province of divine spellcasters."
Now, remember divine magic uses the Weave as previously explained earlier in the same chapter. This makes it debatable as to whether or not Psionics is independent of the Weave. Also, since pluma and hishna are so closely linked to the divine as well (very similar to Rune Magic) it could even be possible that they also use the Weave!
As a result, the only thing we can say with absolute certainty that is Weave-free is the Shadow Weave. Now, since the nature of the Shadow Weave has been retconned a thousand times, we'll just stick with the original that says Shar created it.
We learn from this that at least one deity has created an alternate to the Weave. So, this exists as a counter argument to whether or not Psionics, pluma, and hishna magic are actually Weave independent.
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Here is my personal speculation: In the beginning Toril had no Weave. Selūne, Mystra, and Shar are former Netherese deities and the popular creation story is their cultural creation myth. The truth is probably that there were many independent mini-Weaves in the beginning, created by deities to allow their faithful to access the raw magic of Toril. They likely looked a lot like pluma and hishna magic.
The dragons had their magic, the Elves had their fey magic, the giants and dwarves had their rune magic, etc. Yet, many of them had yet to arrive on Toril. In the beginning there were just the creator races.
One of the greatest of these races was known as the Sarrukh, who even as their empire declined formed an organization known as the Ba'etith, whose primary task at its creation was to study the primitive forms of magic practiced by the various races. This organization, centuries later, ultimately creates the Nether Scrolls. By the time of this creation they've studied many magical traditions that could have spanned every known race and species that practiced known magic, including the Elves, Dragons, and Giants.
The creation of the Nether Scrolls may have been the most significant event in Toril's history, as it laid the very foundation for the future understanding of magic. We know that the Ba'etith had a hand in teaching Netheril about the Nether Scrolls which they had created. Who is to say they didn't do the same for other races and empires?
My theory is that Mystra, as we'd know her, was originally one of the fragments that split off from the World Serpent and worshiped by the Ba'etith. This aspect ultimately formed what we would come to know as the Weave.
When the Nether Scrolls were introduced to the Netherese, the fragment merged with Mystryl, one of their deities, and as Netheril's arcane might grew Mystryl eventually was shaped into what we came to know her as at the height of the Empire of Netheril.
The Nether Scrolls formed the very foundation of Netherese understanding of magic. While the greatest secrets and knowledge is lost, the basics of the Weave were understood. After the Empire fell the surviving arcanists spread the knowledge of the Weave throughout Faerūn, and perhaps beyond.
One area likely untouched by them was Maztica, which explains why their magic is primitive compared to those on Faerūn.
The knowledge contained within the Nether Scrolls was said to be more powerful than the magic being taught to the Netherese by the Eaerlanni Elves, and as a result they abandoned the teachings of the elves in favor of the scrolls.
The goal of the fragment of the world serpent may have been the same goal that has been a common thread throughout every incarnation of Mystra: to spread the knowledge of magic throughout the Realms.
The "Terraseer" likely either foresaw or planned exactly what happened: Netheril would grow to great heights, and word and knowledge of their awesome power would spread throughout the known world. The empire would fall, and its people would scatter, carrying with them their teachings and deities across the land. As a result, the Ba'etith were carrying out the true purpose of their organization, to spread the use and knowledge of magic.
On the flip side, this could have been an act of self-preservation and necessity for the Ba'etith. The fewer of them that worshiped their deity, the more likely that their deity would die off from lack of worship. If their deity were to fade and die off, then the Weave that they used as the basic foundation of their magical knowledge would die with it. It then becomes a matter of self-preservation to ensure that the Weave is spread, accepted, and adapted by other races. As those races use the Weave, the fragment would then merge with one of their deities, as the people would inevitably begin to worship the source of their power. This ensures that the Weave continues and spreads.
Since the Weave's foundation was so strong and more powerful than other forms of magic, most abandoned the more traditional magics held by their people in favor of the Weave. Even the Elves eventually embraced the Weave, and so too did the deities themselves.
We know from Mystra that maintaining a Weave is taxing and difficult. If there is a central deity through which all magic can be channeled to the faithful, and that deity is willing to allow you to use them as such a vehicle... then why not? Sure, you may covet their power, but it is taxing on you to create your own Weave, and the alternative is inherently superior to anything you could create. As a result, even if your followers refused to convert to the new magic, they'd be at a major disadvantage. It is not an ideal situation, but it could have been a reality.
The end result was that the Weave spread throughout Faerūn, and perhaps beyond into Kara-Tur. Different deities may have claimed responsibility for the magic being performed, and may have even offered alternative methods of using the Weave - but it was always the Weave that they used. Thus, Rune Magic may have once been independent of the Weave, but was ultimately joined with it as it made it easier to channel such magic to the faithful.
People of the Realms may not consider this to be the case, they'd argue that Thrym (Giants) / Ladugue (Duergar) / Moradin (Dwarves) is responsible for their rune magic. In a sense, they'd be correct, but they would also be wrong as the power (as clearly stated in the FRCS) comes from the Weave.
Even Psionics would simply be manipulating the Weave with ones mind. This would explain why you can, for example, use arcane magic to dispel certain psionic powers. It would also explain why Mystra had an interest in keeping Auppenser alive after the fall of Jhaamdath.
Now, I could be wrong, but those are my theories. The ultimate truth will likely never be known, and it most certainly isn't known by the majority of Toril. All of which, in my opinion, is a good thing. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 16:59:23
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-Intriguing theorizing.
-I wouldn't say that the Shadow Weave is "Weaveless" magic, though. Mystra's Weave, yes, but the Shadow Weave makes up it's own Weave. For a moment, ignoring your hypothesizes about about Pluma/Hishna/etc., taken at face value, they somehow allow the individual to bypass the Weave and directly draw power from from the raw magic that pervades the cosmos. My biggest problem with this would be that the raw magic that pervades the cosmos, that they're directly drawing from, should be too unrefined, or powerful, or some other adjective, for the individual to access, understand, shape, and so on. Something like the Shadow Weave, casters who are using it's power still have it between them and the raw magic of the cosmos, providing a buffer to protect them and whatever else. This is why I'd separate the Shadow Weave from the others. It is not Mystra's Weave, no, but it is A Weave, and does, in effect, the same thing. Pluma/Hishna/etc. could be similar, in that there's some kind of intercessory entity, be it Qotal or Zaltec or perhaps Maztica herself. But, as of right now, we don't have anything specifically hinting at that, which is the crux of my dismay with those alternative magic systems. If we did, it would be lumped in with the Shadow Weave (in my book)- alternative Weaves, for a lack of better words. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 20:09:50
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Lord Karsus-
I agree about the Shadow Weave, but you're wrong about Pluma and Hishna magic. Here is what the Maztica Campaign Set states on page 71, under Maztican Magic: "Neither type can be categorized purely in the magic sense of the rest of the Forgotten Realms, for they are neither purely sorcerous, nor purely clerical, in nature. True, the priests of Maztica can gain powers of hishna or pluma, and each draws its primary symbol from a god. Zaltec and Qotal, respectively. There are no true magic users in Maztican society, yet the practice of these forms reaches its highest levels in the works of artisans, not priests."
This sounds similar to Rune Magic, which means that either Zaltec and Qotal are powering their respective powers through a mini-Weave (like the Shadow Weave, but not a direct imitation of Mystra's Weave) or that their faithful are somehow unknowingly using the Weave.
Here are some additional quotes from the same chapter:
(Page 74) "Pluma has its roots in the power of the Feathered Dragon, Qotal. It is the lighter of the two magics, and the more beneficial to those with peaceful pursuits."
(Page 83) "Hishna has its roots in the power of Zaltec, the god of war. It is more forceful and violent than pluma, yet it, too, draws its strength from the natural forces of the True World."
It's absolutely clear (to me, at least) that both pluma and hishna magic are linked to those two deities, and seems to be treated exactly like rune magic, but rather than runes talismans are used instead. Which makes both magic types consistent with the lore that came before and after. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 20:27:13
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-I didn't say that they're not linked to those deities. I said that we don't have any kind of intercessory entity that connects the practitioner to raw magic. For regular spellcasters, Mystra's Weave is the intercessory entity that allows them to safely shape magic, by having it "filtered" through the Weave. For Shadow Weave spellcasters, the Shadow Weave is the intercessory entity that allows them to safely shape magic, by having it "filtered" through the Shadow Weave. Pluma and Hishna, here, specifically, are lacking that. Those types of magic are 'granted' (using the term loosely) by Qotal and Zaltec, respectively, and are tied to those deities, respectively, but we have no deeper understanding in how they work, if Mystra's Weave (or even the Shadow Weave) are not accessed. What is "filtering" the raw magic, that allows the casters to use it without being damaged by the harmful effects that raw magic might have on mortals?
-The hypothesis that you're proposing, that Qotal and Zaltec have their own "mini-Weave" that allows the casters of those magical traditions to safely have their magic "filtered" works, but we don't have evidence of Qotal or Zaltec having created such things. They can still be the genesis point of those magics, though. But, as we witnessed during the Time of Troubles and shortly after, divinely granted magic still runs through the Weave. So, if Pluma/Hishna worked similarly to Divine magic, where Qotal and Zaltec were where the power of these magics generated from, respectively, the Weave would still be involved in "translating" Qotal and Zaltec's power into tangible physical effects.
-More likely, I think, it is that Pluma/Hishna practitioners unknowingly use the Weave to "filter" their magic, like you mentioned, so that it's safe and usable. Those types of magic, as a result, are erringly referred to as not using the Weave. That's just my two cents on that issue, though. The official record still says that they don't. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 21:04:03
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Lord Karsus -
I understand what you're saying. However, I think the statements in the MCS are pretty clear. How would rune magic appear any different from Pluma or Hishna magic from the prospective of the Dwarves and Giants? If not for the snippet (literally one sentence) in the FRCS, we'd be debating whether or not Rune Magic uses the Weave or if it were 'granted' (to use the term you yourself used loosely) by their respective deities. So while it is not specifically stated, by virtue of requiring some divine patron I'd say both Pluma and Hishna magic are in line with the lore that came before and after it. Only 4E broke with the lore of requiring a divinity to refine raw magic.
It's true that we don't know how Qotal and Zaltec are doing it. They could very well be using the Weave, in the same way the Dwarf and Giant deities are using the Weave for Rune Magic. Or they could have gone a similar route to Shar and created a pseudo-Weave; not copying Mystra's Weave but still creating something that refined the raw magic allowing mortals to safely use it. We'll likely never know the truth, but my hunch is that they created some type of pseudo-Weave (clearly less powerful than the Weave and in some way linked with Maztica itself).
That's the other side of the coin when discussing Pluma and Hishna magic. While it's clear that the two previously mentioned divinities are involved, the MCS also states that the magic is somehow linked with Maztica itself. This could be an allusion to how raw magic is bound into all of creation, or it could be something more specific to Maztica and the deities behind the magic. My hunch is that it is something more intimately tied to Maztica. We may never know the truth.
Regardless, I think it is abundantly clear that Qotal and Zaltec are behind the refining of the raw magic required; whether through helping their faithful link with the Weave or by creating some type of pseudo-Weave that also has some interactions with the land.
We know with certainty that it's possible that magic can be used that is completely independent of the Weave. The Shadow Weave is the primary example, which if we go by the FRCS makes it clear that Shar created it. If Shar can create an alternate Weave, whose to say other deities couldn't do the same? (That's entirely different from saying that creating an alternative to the Weave is easy, beneficial, or an intelligent thing to do.) The FRCS also leaves the door wide open by saying: "Many types of magic ... are all merely different processes or paths to the same mastery of natural energies [the Weave]."
By saying "many types of magic" and not "all types of magic" it left the door wide open for such speculation. Since the Shadow Weave is independent of the Weave, there is no reason to believe that other types of magic are not independent of the Weave as well. The only requirement I'd place on such things is that they require a divine patron, or at least a being capable of refining the raw magic and channeling it to their users. How that magic ultimately works would be entirely up to the being doing the refinement. |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 22:31:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
This is actually a massive discussion topic that could never end.
Let's start with the basics. Most of the multiple worlds stuff happened prior to 3E. During that time FR used the Great Wheel Cosmology. When transitioning to 3E things changed to the Great Tree. This was a retcon, though depending on your point of view... things might not have changed much. It's open to interpretation. Things changed again when FR made it into 4E.
I think retcon is a dirty word, and should never be used in polite comapany. The World Tree was not a retcon, and did not change the structure of the planes in any significant way.
(3e Manual of the Planes, pg 62)
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Why is this important? Because we know for a fact that the Weave had an impact on the Planes, because of what GotHR stated happened to them in the Year of Blue Fire.
True.
quote:
This meant when you were traveling the planes you were still using the Weave.
There is nothing in the GHotR which supports this position. The relevant passage in GHotR, to wit:
Unthinkable catastrophe ensues when Cyric, aided and abetted by Shar, murders Mystra in Dweomerheart. The plane itself disintegrates at once, destroying Savras and sending the gods Azuth and Velsharoon reeling into the endless Astral Plane. Without Mystra to govern the Weave, magic bursts its bonds all across Faerun and the surrounding planes and runs wild.
At this time, "magic burst its bonds all across Faerun and the surrounding planes". The planes which surround Faerun are, of course, the Ethereal and the Astral. There is no indication in the text from GHotR that "magic burst its bonds" on other worlds.
quote:
There is a whole chapter on Magic in the 3E FRCS pages 54 through 66. The basics of the Weave and Magic as traditionally known on Toril pre-Spellplague are defined there.
Most importantly, and often overlooked, the Weave was used to power both arcane AND divine magic on Toril.
Nope. Magic of Faerun pg 8:
"Magic that originates in the power of a deity, usually
through prayer, is divine magic. The use of divine magic is
called the Power. Clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, blackguards,
and other practitioners of divine magic are taught
this name of their magic by their mentors.
Unlike masters of the Art, those who use the Power have
no skill in using the Weave."
In addition, we know from "The Wailing Years" .pdf that (as far as I can tell) has disappeared been purged from (?) the DDI database, that clerical magic worked just fine after the death of Mystra in The Year of Blue Fire.
That being said the Weave has never been the only game in town. The most obvious competition it had was the Shadow Weave, but there were others such as the previously mentioned pluma and hishna magic of Maztica.
quote:
Even Psionics had Auppenser, though it is debatable whether or not he actually had any influence over how Psionics worked in the Realms. It is also debatable whether or not Psionics used the Weave much like a Sorcerer. (Where as a Sorcerer used and accessed the Weave through sheer force of will, a Psionic manifester would access the Weave mentally with their mind.)
I don't think this is all that debatable, considering Players Guid to Faerun pg 172:
"Unlike spells, which derive their power from Faerūns Weave (or the
Shadow Weave), psionic ability taps only the inner reservoirs of the
manifester. In a sense, each psionic creature is its own Weave, using
the magic of its own lifeforce and mind to create psionic effects.
Mystra and Shar have no ability to deny psionic creatures access to
powers, and they do not control the promulgation of psionic lore
and ability throughout the populace of Faerūn.
While psionics does not require the Weave to function, psionic
powers are magical in nature."
What, what?! Magic powers that do not require the Weave?
quote:
As a result, the only thing we can say with absolute certainty
Nothing... er, sorry
quote:
As a result, the only thing we can say with absolute certainty that is Weave-free is the Shadow Weave. Now, since the nature of the Shadow Weave has been retconned a thousand times, we'll just stick with the original that says Shar created it.
Man, you got a dirty mouth! But since Divine magic does not use the Weave, and psionics are magic abilities which do not use the Weave, and divine intercession does not = Weave magic (pluma).
quote:
We learn from this that at least one deity has created an alternate to the Weave. So, this exists as a counter argument to whether or not Psionics, pluma, and hishna magic are actually Weave independent.
Nah. I mean, good idea, but nah. Just because Shar created a Weave does not mean that anyone who wanted to convey spellcasting ability to their followers needs a Weave.
Your personal speculations regarding the Creator Races and mini-Weaves is clearly very well thought out, kudos!
I don't agree with any of it, but pretty cool, none the less.
One area likely untouched by them was Maztica, which explains why their magic is primitive compared to those on Faerūn.
Except that True World magic is easily as sophisticated, probably more so, than, 'continental' magic. The Netherese you used mythalar to power quasi-magical items to overcome permanent drain to their life-force. Not so in the True World. Maztican artisans could create permanent magical items *without* permanent losses of life force.
quote:
Since the Weave's foundation was so strong and more powerful than other forms of magic, most abandoned the more traditional magics held by their people in favor of the Weave. Even the Elves eventually embraced the Weave, and so too did the deities themselves.
Spellfire is more powerful than Weave magic.
The elves, in addition, didn't come to 'embrace' the Weave, they are 'part' of the Weave.
"Elves are, in a sense, part of the weave. Tel'Quessir are inherently magical, by our very nature, and..."
Kymil Nimesin to Arilyn Moonblade, Elfshadow pg. 66.
quote:
The end result was that the Weave spread throughout Faerūn, and perhaps beyond into Kara-Tur. Different deities may have claimed responsibility for the magic being performed, and may have even offered alternative methods of using the Weave - but it was always the Weave that they used. Thus, Rune Magic may have once been independent of the Weave, but was ultimately joined with it as it made it easier to channel such magic to the faithful.
Emphasis mine. I believe that the Weave makes using spells easier, so I agree with you in this regard.
Also, there is a source somewhere, and I can't recall at the moment, which indicates that the Weave is a Faerun specific phenomena, and does not reach Kara-tur. I'll be damned that I can't find it...
quote:
Even Psionics would simply be manipulating the Weave with ones mind. This would explain why you can, for example, use arcane magic to dispel certain psionic powers. It would also explain why Mystra had an interest in keeping Auppenser alive after the fall of Jhaamdath.
Psionisists do not use the Weave. See the quote from PGtF, above.
quote:
Now, I could be wrong, but those are my theories. The ultimate truth will likely never be known, and it most certainly isn't known by the majority of Toril. All of which, in my opinion, is a good thing.
Hear, hear!
Great post, Aldrick, thanks again for putting for so many good points, and offering so much food for thought! |
Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 28 May 2011 22:36:26 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 23:49:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
I think retcon is a dirty word, and should never be used in polite comapany. The World Tree was not a retcon, and did not change the structure of the planes in any significant way.
(3e Manual of the Planes, pg 62)
I think it can be viewed that way from the perspective of someone on Toril, but the reason it is important: What happened over in Greyhawk and the other countless prime worlds connected to the planes in the Year of Blue Fire? We don't know the answer to that, but if all the planes were linked together then based on FR canon they were adversely impacted as well. (At least where the planes were concerned.)
Keep in mind, though, that if we go by the Great Tree point of view then there are thousands - perhaps even an infinite number - of copies (yes, copies!) of the Archdevils and deities. This is a side effect of the Great Tree cosmology that didn't exist pre-Great Tree.
This would help contain things within the Realms cosmology and version of the Prime.
However, if things become this convoluted when simply dealing with basic metaphysical aspects of tangible locations and beings... imagine how complicated the understanding of magic must be when moving from FR to Greyhawk. The simplest answer is that "things just work naturally." Mystra may have a way to extend the Weave around individuals traveling to other Prime Material Planes. When traveling from another Prime to the FR Cosmology Mystra may simply "re-route" someone's magic to automatically connect with the Weave without their knowledge, understanding, or consent.
In both cases, the individual likely wouldn't notice anything different about their magic, aside from perhaps different feelings or sensations that may be native to that prime.
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
There is nothing in the GHotR which supports this position. The relevant passage in GHotR, to wit:
Unthinkable catastrophe ensues when Cyric, aided and abetted by Shar, murders Mystra in Dweomerheart. The plane itself disintegrates at once, destroying Savras and sending the gods Azuth and Velsharoon reeling into the endless Astral Plane. Without Mystra to govern the Weave, magic bursts its bonds all across Faerun and the surrounding planes and runs wild.
At this time, "magic burst its bonds all across Faerun and the surrounding planes". The planes which surround Faerun are, of course, the Ethereal and the Astral. There is no indication in the text from GHotR that "magic burst its bonds" on other worlds.
That is correct, there is no way of knowing (as of yet) if the events in the Year of Blue Fire impacted other worlds. My hunch is that the only worlds effected exist within the FR cosmology.
However, that wasn't the core of my point - my point of bringing up the Great Tree vs the Great Wheel was the passage you quoted in addition to this:
"Many planes are shifted or destroyed as well. Only greater deities prove strong enough to maintain their realms against the resultant chaos."
Which seems to logically support that the Weave had a connection to the Planes in the FR Cosmology. Pre-Great Tree this would not have been the case, I don't believe. However, it points to the fact that if you were visiting (say the Nine Hells) in the FR Cosmology you were still using the Weave.
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Nope. Magic of Faerun pg 8:
"Magic that originates in the power of a deity, usually through prayer, is divine magic. The use of divine magic is called the Power. Clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, blackguards, and other practitioners of divine magic are taught this name of their magic by their mentors. Unlike masters of the Art, those who use the Power have no skill in using the Weave."
In addition, we know from "The Wailing Years" .pdf that (as far as I can tell) has disappeared been purged from (?) the DDI database, that clerical magic worked just fine after the death of Mystra in The Year of Blue Fire.
I don't think what is stated in Magic of Faerūn is a contradiction to what is stated in the FRCS. If it IS a contradiction, then (to once again use the word in polite company) it is a retcon. The FRCS states:
"The Weave is the conduit spellcasters use to channel magical energy for their spells, both arcane and divine."
That being said, I don't think it is a contradiction, only that the deities use the Weave to grant spells to divine spellcasters, and those casters don't have any direct knowledge of the Weave (in a way that a Wizard would). As a result, if you'd go up to a cleric and tell them that they are using the Weave as a conduit for the divine power they're channeling, they'd likely dispute it and declare it came from their deity - not the Weave. Both would be correct, but only to certain degrees.
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
I don't think this is all that debatable, considering Players Guid to Faerun pg 172:
"Unlike spells, which derive their power from Faerūns Weave (or the Shadow Weave), psionic ability taps only the inner reservoirs of the manifester. In a sense, each psionic creature is its own Weave, using the magic of its own lifeforce and mind to create psionic effects. Mystra and Shar have no ability to deny psionic creatures access to powers, and they do not control the promulgation of psionic lore and ability throughout the populace of Faerūn. While psionics does not require the Weave to function, psionic powers are magical in nature."
What, what?! Magic powers that do not require the Weave?
Well I think that largely settles it when it comes to Psionics, but it raises some interesting and perhaps dangerous questions. Namely, how does a Psion tap into the raw magic of Toril without some form of divine intervention? Is it possible that a Psion is able to create a personalized version of the Weave with their mind, and if a mortal can do it... yeah, this line of questioning opens up some problems.
I'd largely rule it as thus: Everything stated in the Players Guide to Faerūn is true. However, the Psion is merely forming a mental link with some type of magical source (likely the Weave), and mentally manifesting their powers through that source. Mystra, Shar, or some other deity would not have the power to deny them, perhaps because they're similar to a Ur-Priest. Or rather, perhaps their minds have forged a mental link with the Weave becoming a part of it, and Mystra could no sooner deny them than she could deny herself (as the Weave is a part of herself).
If that isn't true, then it opens up a whole big can of worms, regarding mortals and their personal ability to tap into raw magic. Namely, if a Psion can do it then can a REALLY powerful Psion create their own Weave? What happens if you're a Psion / Wizard? Could you use your Psionic power to create your own Weave and then use it to fuel your arcane powers as well?
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Nah. I mean, good idea, but nah. Just because Shar created a Weave does not mean that anyone who wanted to convey spellcasting ability to their followers needs a Weave.
You don't need a Mystra-style Weave, but you do need a way to tap into unrefined raw magic.
"All existence is infused with magical power, and potential energy lies untapped in every rock, every stream, every living creature, even the air itself. Raw magic is the frozen stuff of creation, the mute and mindless will of being, suffusing every bit of matter and present in every manifestation of energy throughout the world."
...
"Mortals cannot directly shape raw magic."
...
"The Weave is the manifestation of raw magic, a kind of interface between the will of a spellcaster and the stuff of raw magic. Without the Weave, raw magic is locked away and inaccessible - an archmage can't light a candle in a dead magic zone."
So says the FRCS. Now, the FRCS also makes clear that magic exists outside Mystra's Weave. However, it also seems to make clear that all magic is ultimately refined raw magic - "...the frozen stuff of creation, the mute and mindless will of being, suffusing every bit of matter and present in every manifestation of energy throughout the world."
So no matter what type of magic you're using - Psionics, the Weave, the Shadow Weave, Rune Magic, Pluma, Hishna, whatever - you're ultimately tapping into something that is refined raw magic.
"Mortals cannot directly shape raw magic."
This is pretty clear and unambiguous. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule True Spellfire being one such exception. (True Spellfire is different from the Spellfire granted by Mystra.) True Spellfire is so rare that it only manifests in one individual per generation.
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
The elves, in addition, didn't come to 'embrace' the Weave, they are 'part' of the Weave.
"Elves are, in a sense, part of the weave. Tel'Quessir are inherently magical, by our very nature, and..." Kymil Nimesin to Arilyn Moonblade, Elfshadow pg. 66.
The source you used isn't authoritative and could have easily been either the misconception or personal bias of the character. That doesn't make it false, just... highly debatable. I wouldn't disagree that Elves are inherently magical, to some degree, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Also, there is a source somewhere, and I can't recall at the moment, which indicates that the Weave is a Faerun specific phenomena, and does not reach Kara-tur. I'll be damned that I can't find it...
I checked Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms and didn't see anything mentioned about that there... you may be correct, though. Those in Kara-Tur may have their own magical traditions (such as those in Maztica), and not use the Weave for their magic. Though the Weave certainly would extend to Kara-Tur, as this is proven in 4E. Kara-Tur is apparently in some type of turmoil due to the Spellplague, and we also know that the Weave extended to Maztica due to the swap with Abier that went on... and after all, if the Weave clearly extends to the Planes, would it not also extend across the entire planet? Seems logical enough.
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Great post, Aldrick, thanks again for putting for so many good points, and offering so much food for thought!
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 00:22:48
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| How does 4e lore indicate that the Weave extends to Kara-for? |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 00:43:58
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Because the FRCG states that Kara-Tur was badly impacted by the Spellplague. How could the Weave not extend to Kara-Tur if it was adversely impacted by: "...magic burst[ing] its bonds... without Mystra to govern the Weave..." Kara-Tur, Maztica, the Planes should not have been impacted by the Spellplague if the Weave didn't touch them.
That being said... I'm digging through stuff Ed has posted in his Q&A threads. I'm uncovering some interesting stuff, and I hope to share it in this thread soon. Some is old, some is recent, and it definitely will have an impact on what has been posted here. (Probably only to lend to further confuse everyone.  ) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 03:38:18
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-So much to address. I'll just pick specific things.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I don't think what is stated in Magic of Faerūn is a contradiction to what is stated in the FRCS. If it IS a contradiction, then (to once again use the word in polite company) it is a retcon. The FRCS states:
"The Weave is the conduit spellcasters use to channel magical energy for their spells, both arcane and divine."
That being said, I don't think it is a contradiction, only that the deities use the Weave to grant spells to divine spellcasters, and those casters don't have any direct knowledge of the Weave (in a way that a Wizard would). As a result, if you'd go up to a cleric and tell them that they are using the Weave as a conduit for the divine power they're channeling, they'd likely dispute it and declare it came from their deity - not the Weave. Both would be correct, but only to certain degrees.
-Correct. The power that fuels a spell is granted to the priest/priestess by his/her deity. There isn't anything particular that the priest/priestess can do with such 'unrefined' divine energy, if you want to call it that. Passed through the Weave, however, that energy manifests as magical spells/abilities/effects. The origin of those spells are still the priest/priestess' deity. It gets passed along to them, and via the Weave, it becomes something that they can use. As demonstrated in the Time of Troubles (as well as just in general, inside Dead/Anti-Magic Zones), when the Weave is not present, priests and priestess' lose their ability to cast Divine magic. Were the Weave not needed to do so, they would be able to use their magic inside of areas where the Weave is not.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
You don't need a Mystra-style Weave, but you do need a way to tap into unrefined raw magic.
"All existence is infused with magical power, and potential energy lies untapped in every rock, every stream, every living creature, even the air itself. Raw magic is the frozen stuff of creation, the mute and mindless will of being, suffusing every bit of matter and present in every manifestation of energy throughout the world."
...
"Mortals cannot directly shape raw magic."
...
"The Weave is the manifestation of raw magic, a kind of interface between the will of a spellcaster and the stuff of raw magic. Without the Weave, raw magic is locked away and inaccessible - an archmage can't light a candle in a dead magic zone."
So says the FRCS. Now, the FRCS also makes clear that magic exists outside Mystra's Weave. However, it also seems to make clear that all magic is ultimately refined raw magic - "...the frozen stuff of creation, the mute and mindless will of being, suffusing every bit of matter and present in every manifestation of energy throughout the world."
So no matter what type of magic you're using - Psionics, the Weave, the Shadow Weave, Rune Magic, Pluma, Hishna, whatever - you're ultimately tapping into something that is refined raw magic.
"Mortals cannot directly shape raw magic."
This is pretty clear and unambiguous. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule True Spellfire being one such exception. (True Spellfire is different from the Spellfire granted by Mystra.) True Spellfire is so rare that it only manifests in one individual per generation.
-Generally speaking, I was never a fan of Mystra, as a deity (I didn't dislike her, either). I did like the concept of the Weave, though. Mystra being killed for the 4e transition, while I thought that the manner in which she was killed was fairly hokey, it didn't turn me off and reek of tragedy, like many other people. What I didn't like about it, though, is with her removal, so, too, was the Weave removed (and the Shadow Weave). No 4e books, or author replies, to this point, address this in sufficient detail for me- given the fact that, as was stated, raw magic is more or less inaccessible by without something acting as intercessory, how is magic being cast in the post-Mystra world? I'm not averse to magicians learning to access it from different venues, but it's a subject that rarely has been touched, other than (to paraphrase), "In time, magicians learned of new avenues to access magic and cast spells". I, for one, would like to know how. If we did learn more, that knowledge probably could be applied retroactively to further understand the relationship between mortals, magic, and everything that we've been debating here.
-And, also, since we're on the topic of Spellfire, it's only a manifestation of the raw magic that pervades the cosmos. That only further underscores just how powerful raw magic is, in it's natural form, if a only a singular manifestation of it can be so deadly and dangerous.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
The source you used isn't authoritative and could have easily been either the misconception or personal bias of the character. That doesn't make it false, just... highly debatable. I wouldn't disagree that Elves are inherently magical, to some degree, though.
-And, asides for that, we know that the Weave predates the Elven presence in Realmspace. The first Elves came to Realmspace in -27,000 DR. According to the popularly accepted creation myth, Mystra came into being after Shar and Selūne got into one of their first conflicts, shortly after Realmspace was created. If this is to be taken as fact- and, the fact that in the earliest days of Abeir-Toril's recorded history, we had powerful empires with access to magic, meaning that the Weave existed- the Weave pre-dates the existence of Elves in Realmspace. During that period, they were elsewhere, on the Plane of Faerie, where Mystra's Weave seemingly does not have any presence. So, they existed extraneously from Mystra's Weave. When they came to Realmspace, like everything else, they adapted to the presence of the Weave. Being relatively innately magical creatures (as compared to, say, Humans, who do not possess many of the semi-magical natural characteristics that Elves have, such as reverie, among other things) to begin with, their physiologies "bonded", if you will, deeper than other races, it can be said.
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Also, there is a source somewhere, and I can't recall at the moment, which indicates that the Weave is a Faerun specific phenomena, and does not reach Kara-tur. I'll be damned that I can't find it...
-Magic of Faerūn, page 9, says, "The Weave acts as both a barrier and a gate between raw magic and the world". Kara-Tur would be included. The continent of Faerūn is mentioned specifically in other sentences, paragraphs, but the word 'world' is specifically used, here. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 29 May 2011 03:39:35 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 06:15:51
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Ok... I got some things to say to all of this.
1) As stated Divine magic runs on weave juice; hence the fact that divine magic cant be used in dead magic zones.
2) Psionic powers are not magic. Its a telekinetic power like that of Jean Grey (x-man). Its the whole reason Ioulaum turned himself into a Elder Brain, so not to be weave dependent as he saw what happened at Karsus' Folly.
3) Ioulaum proved his importance in the year 845, when he created
the mythallar. This magical device dug deep into the weave
of magic (controlled by the goddess Mystryl) and gave access to
raw, unfiltered magic. Pg 6, netheril boxed set.
I think this is strange. It digs deep into the weave(which is already a conduit for raw unfiltered magic), and grants access to unfiltered raw magic. This seems like the mythallars were unnecessary. I dont know it just hit me!
4) The size of the weave is a tricky one to determine. If a normal weave using wizard goes to a place in the FR crastal sphere where there is no weave he is effectively in a dead magic zone. And Im pretty sure I can go to any plane or other continent on toril, and still cast spells. So my guess is that iy encompasses the entire crystal sphere.
5) The statement "Mortal cant manipulate raw magic" is likely wrong! 99,99% might not know how to, but it is surely possible: pg 49 Netheril boxed set
She couldnt be affected by less than the
most powerful magicswhich reached beyond the Weave to
attempt to draw upon her very nature, the stuff of magic itself
unless she desired to be. Hence Karsus' Avatar. He obviously did access "raw" unfiltered magic. He had to... unless she wanted to die!!! at least thats how I read it!
In short, I believe, personally, that unless you use the weave(or shadow weave) one way or the other, you are incapable of using arcane magic. I do agree that the weave is s filter, which makes spellcasting a 100 times easier, but I dont believe the fact that the raw unfiltered magic of the universe cant be accessed.
Just my two cents!
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 06:26:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
2) Psionic powers are not magic. Its a telekinetic power like that of Jean Grey (x-man). Its the whole reason Ioulaum turned himself into a Elder Brain, so not to be weave dependent as he saw what happened at Karsus' Folly.
-Psionic Powers are not magic (and they're not limited to just telekinetic powers; there are other disciplines), but they have a semi-interdependent relationship to magic. That said, Psionic Powers don't use the Weave, per se, meaning that they can be used in Dead Magic Zones (as was the case with House Oblodra, the Psionic-oriented Drow house during the Time of Troubles. Part of the trouble with Psionics is that, in the D&D rules, they've gone through plenty of changes, and in the Forgotten Realms, they've never really been that prominent. So, we kinda have a big mish-mosh of rules and information. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 22:38:40
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Was talking to some of my party menbers about this thread and we talked about the possibilities ingame...
Would any of you DMs out there allow your PCs access to this raw unfiltered magic? And the unlimited power that it holds??? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 23:00:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Was talking to some of my party menbers about this thread and we talked about the possibilities ingame...
Would any of you DMs out there allow your PCs access to this raw unfiltered magic? And the unlimited power that it holds???
It's rather difficult to challenge a PC with unlimited power. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 23:55:07
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Well... I know that even if you combined the knowledge and power of Larloch, Ioulaum, Srinshee, Elminster, Simbul, The Terraseer, The Sojourner, High Telemond, end 10 more I donk know, and gave that entity 10k years, He/she would only perhaps learn to controle 1% of the pottential of the neverending "raw" magic...
And personally I would deem it an interesting turn of events in any campaign, if the spellcaster of the group were to try and discover the use of this... It could build for some quite epic adventures i think! |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 04:37:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
This is actually a massive discussion topic that could never end.
<snip>
Quite so. One thing that I remember reading in (I believe) The God Catcher is that there were still fragments of the Weave around and it took very powerful people to use it successfully. I may be splitting hairs, but the "destruction" of the Weave doesn't necessarily equal the "annihilation" of the Weave.
I'll just reiterate a point that I've made before: in Prince of Lies Mystra cuts Cyric off from the Weave and he is powerless. While I'm eagerly awaiting Ed's next books in the Elminster line, I don't think it's unfair to guess that remnants of the Weave remain. These...strands...still allow people to access magic, but not nearly as neatly as when under Mystra's control.
In so far as the other spheres are concerned, unless the sphere had no access to Nirvana, then Mystra could act as a conduit for the Weave's power to spellcasters on other words that learned magic in Faerūn.
Just as a deity can grant spells to worshipers of a dead power, it is conceivable that a deity is indeed doing that and perhaps even holding the "strands" of the Weave together until either a new Mystra emerges, or the Weave does something to stabilize magic.
Just my thoughts...
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 05:38:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Would any of you DMs out there allow your PCs access to this raw unfiltered magic? And the unlimited power that it holds???
-No. I don't DM in the Forgotten Realms, but a lot of my settings' cosmology and metaphysics are based off of the Forgotten Realms. There isn't a deity of magic, but there is a Weave, of sorts. Like in the Forgotten Realms, it is needed to safely access magic. Accessing raw magic, if one somehow manages to do so, is not safe for the individual. It'd be like plugging in a hairdryer built for U.S. consumers in Europe, as the old trope goes. Zap. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 11:38:58
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Personally I love when my players do something out of the ordinary. It pushes me as a Dm (even though I dont DM alot) and helps me to create better and more personalized quests for my players. If a wizard in my party tried to uncower the Raw magic, I would probebly just make it extremely hard to do... but if he succeded I would say more power to him/her.
But it would not be easy... hence the fact that it is closely related to unlimited power! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 13:24:15
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through intense study and discovery of some ancient magic... basically like the Nether Scrolls and or something else. That would mean that I was playing an epic or power gaming campaign ... but hey thats what I do.
But if the mage could indeed acquire that sort of magical lore and put it to good use through trial and error I would allow it. But again Im all for giving player what they want with the right consequences and requirements.
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 01:26:44
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I've done some contemplating on this topic, and I've come to the conclusion that (possibly) a Mythal contains some of the Weave's energy within it. Therefore, it can exist in a zone free of magic (such a the Dragon Ward over Waterdepp) but new Mythals cannot be raised without the Weave. The thing that I find most frightening about a post-Mystra world is that Mystra's rules on magic were unassailable: mortals were denied access to certain magics, and so too, were gods. As I've said (nth degree) times, I don't understand how deities access magic without Mystra and the Weave. Precedent has been clearly set that all magic comes from the Weave. I don't want to, and will not descend into an "I hate 4E" thread, but I do intensly dislike this gross "oops" with respect to the Realms. A sentence such as "Ao now governs access to the Weave" or something similar would have been sufficient to close a major loop, but I'm struggling with this a great deal. So, without further ado:
Nicolai: even the Netherese had the Weave. The "something else" was a then-uninstated ban on magics like Karsus attempted. While Mystra's decree is no longer in force, absent so too is the Weave. It's a paradox.
Lord Karsus: not setting your game in the Realms definitely removes you from the requirements of the game setting, and allows greater creativity as a DM, I like your analogy, and one that comes to mind for me is putting 110 octane fuel in a lawn mower.
I think that Wooly has the right of it. The DM is basically the equivalent of Ao, but without the mandate of upholding any kind of balance. A PC with access to unlimited power would be Ao's rival. Ao is the only being who has a proven record of not needing the Weave. Shar and Selūne attacked each other, but it is unclear as to the Weave's status when Toril was created (at least in my research). As even the divine require the Weave to channel their spells to their worshippers, at least they did, I'm just at a loss as to how magic works in the Realms. That may make magic "magic" and what not, but it makes the Realms less..."Realmsian" to me. I'll be curious to see what happens in future updates, that much is certain.
Cheers to all,
Azuth
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Magic outside the weave
