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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 15:52:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I've theorised on ways of connecting the Warp and the Phlogiston. But then, I've also begun tinkering with theories that expand on the similarities between the Astronomicon and the Astral Plane. 
Would you then equate the eldar webways to the shadow plane (you can travel from place to place in it, but only if you know the way)? |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 16:07:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I've theorised on ways of connecting the Warp and the Phlogiston. But then, I've also begun tinkering with theories that expand on the similarities between the Astronomicon and the Astral Plane.
Would you then equate the eldar webways to the shadow plane (you can travel from place to place in it, but only if you know the way)?
Actually, I've already started working on theories that connect Eldar Webways with the Fraal interpretation of Drivespace in the Star*Drive campaign setting.
But the Shadow Plane could work just as well for a fantastical D&D interpretation. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 10 Jun 2011 16:10:39 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 16:51:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And one of my earlier points remains, as well -- real world physics is not, in canon, fully in sync with physics in the Realms. Why is that not a problem for you, but the reverse is?
Because canonicaly, the rules within each crystal sphere are different, just as they are are with planes, demi-planes, domains, etc...
I have no problem with that at all. What I have a problem with is D&D defining EVERYTHING between the spheres (which equate to solar systems), which we know to be patently false.
I will concede that if we live in an incredibly large sphere, that it is feasible that phlogiston exists outside of it, but that just doesn't sit well with me. I guess its just a matter of personal preferences. For me, SJ was a mish-mosh of very good ideas sprinkled liberally with really bad ones (like a LOT of the critters). The whole thing felt very rushed to me (and probably was, in response to the excellent SPACE: 1889 that won 'Best Game' the year it came out).
Also, I feel the need to blend RW with fantasy because that is also my preference, and because canonicaly Earth has connections with the D&D universe. I cannot simply except 'its make-believe'; when I game, I try to make thiungs as realistic as possible, even if it is just fantasy.
For instance, in my HB world, things like basilisks and medusae do NOT turn things to stone - they have a gaze attack that mesmerizes victims (something similar to the 'flashy thingy' in MIB), and in the case of the basilisk, an enzyme in their bite that speeds up rigor mortise and enhances the effect. I know that's not how it normally works in D&D, but I like my magic (and monsters) to be more like super-science. I need to know precisely HOW the abilities (or spells/magic) work, in order to better judge the outcome of encounters (IMHO). By sticking to RW physics, I have something to base all my decisions on.
Anyhow, I know that's not how many people view their fantasy, so like I said, its just a matter of personal preferences. I seem to have strayed from the topic quite a bit - my apologies.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 19:12:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For instance, in my HB world, things like basilisks and medusae do NOT turn things to stone - they have a gaze attack that mesmerizes victims (something similar to the 'flashy thingy' in MIB), and in the case of the basilisk, an enzyme in their bite that speeds up rigor mortise and enhances the effect. I know that's not how it normally works in D&D, but I like my magic (and monsters) to be more like super-science. I need to know precisely HOW the abilities (or spells/magic) work, in order to better judge the outcome of encounters (IMHO). By sticking to RW physics, I have something to base all my decisions on.
Basilisks gaze emits a wave-form which interacts with the cell membranes of living creatures which alters the electrostatic forces associated with calcium and carbon, turning the victim into limestone? |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 02:31:57
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Gorgonism is an observationally mediated quantum-tunneling effect exhibited by medusae, basilisks, cockatrices, and creatures possessed of a specific neuroanatomy typified by stellate ganglial networks--including certain humans with advanced astrocytomas affecting the cingulate gyrus.
The "gorgon effect" occurs when an observer meets the gaze of a creature so possessed (or afflicted, depending on your point of view.) This mutual observation completes a quantum feedback loop. The loop causes a quantum probability wave resonance that increases exponentially in amplitude which can only collapse after passing a very high potential energy threshold.
The typical outcome of such an event is a symmetry-breaking phase transition involving the outer valence electrons of elements in the p-block group 14 (the carbon group) jumping to the next highest orbital. It is unclear at this time whether a corresponding number of protons is created within the atomic nucleus, or whether the valence electrons are suspended in a "virtual" outer shell. Either way, the energy requirements to fuel such a reaction are astronomical but are thought to be drawn from the vacuum energy of the surrounding quantum foam.
Over 18% of the mass of a human body is made up of carbon. Consequently, the gorgon effect results in nearly a fifth of the observed subject's body mass transmuting into silicon. Additionally, trace amounts of silicon are transmuted into germanium, germanium into tin, and tin into lead, although such amounts are negligible in the human body and generally not noticed by the subject for reasons not the least of which include the subject's subsequent petrefaction.
Experiments are ongoing to investigate whether lead golems can be transmuted into ununquadium (element 114) by means of the gorgon effect; however, results have so far proven disappointing. It is speculated that a golem's immunity to paralysis and mind-affecting spells, or possibly the fundamental nature of their sapience (or lack thereof) may present insurmountable barriers to further progress in this area.
Current thinking among experimental nuclear alchemists holds that the "Lot's Wife effect" involves a similar mechanism resulting in the transmutation of hydrogen into sodium. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 18:36:28
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Thank You, both - Thats PRECISELY what I mean. 
If I know how things work (in MY games), then I can figure-out what sort of things occur when unexpected effects are mixed together. This was (in-part) the beauty of 3e - in many ways the systems presented were better able to do this (like template-stacking and 'types').
And really, at the end of the day, my way of looking at Spelljammer and Arcane Space doesn't really change things all that much, at least not for me. Groundlings can still think they are "flying through space", along with many 'spacers', but beings in-the-know (like DMs and gods  ) will know whats really going on.
I believe Gray and I (and correct me if I'm wrong) reasoned that region within the atmosphere of a world is coterminus with the Border Ethereal, the space outside of a planet's atmosphere but within the Crystal Sphere (Arcane Space) is actually the Ethereal, and the space outside of a Crystal Sphere is the 'Deep' Ethereal, which is coterminus with the Plane of Shadows (Shadowfel).
Or something like that.
I rearranged the planer structure in my own HB cosmology, so your my mileage may vary. By saying SJ Helms are simply area-effect planer-shifting devices (with some minor mantle-like powers), they not only function as SJ ships, but other helm-types could operate Astral or Fiend ships (I forget what those are called or which source they are mentioned in).
BTW, I think the Starry Compass mentioned in Rich Baker's book (not sure if it had an earlier canon existence) makes for an excellent Netherease artifact for when they figured-out how to get their normal skyships to operate in Arcane Space. Knowing the Netherease, I think it makes perfect sense that they would have figured out an alternate way of doing what the Mercane do with helms. Just a suggestion, of course - nothing canon.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 19:19:34
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Not exactly. My belief is that the Material Plane only exists within discrete boundaries circumscribed by crystal spheres. The Material Plane extends to the shell of the crystal sphere and no further. The shell itself is some kind of transition boundary.
The area outside of crystal spheres is the Shadow Plane. It was established in 3e that the Shadow Plane connects alternate realities and can be used to travel between worlds. You can find support for this in the 3e Manual of the Planes p. 44 & especially p. 62. The Shadow Plane is the void but also the substrate upon which reality attaches itself. Shadow is the Cartesian grid of the multiverse.
Inside the area of a crystal sphere, the Shadow Plane resembles the Shadowfell with which we are more familiar. Outside of crystal spheres, the Shadow Plane looks dark and empty. With no reality to reflect, the Shadow Plane resembles a black void filled with a colorful gas, the interplay of light and dark.
I speculate that the colorful phlogiston gas that permeates the dark void of Shadow between crystal spheres is caused by virtual particles of sheer potentiality emerging spontaneously out of the void, trying to establish reality in a place where nothing exists. Nature abhors a vacuum, and so these virtual particles appear and are swiftly annihilated, the glow of which causes the phlogiston phenomenon.
These virtual particles I surmise are pure ether, but not produced from an ethereal plane. I do not believe that the Ethereal is coterminous with Shadow in the space between crystal spheres. It's not the Ethereal Plane impinging on Shadow; rather, it is raw potential trying to manifest itself. Each particle is the microscopic seed of an ethereal plane, sprouting, trying to establish itself, but finding no reality to nourish it, no soil in which to gain purchase, it dies. A spark cooling to a dead ember.
In D&D, the Ethereal plane is the plane of potential. It is the seminal plane out of which the raw elements form. From the raw elements in turn, reality takes its substance in the shape of a Material Plane.
In the creation myth of Realmspace, Ao did not create the planets or even the sun. Rather, he created the crystal shell of Realmspace which was said to be filled only with a gray mist. This mist I believe was not a material plane, but rather an ethereal plane filled with sheer latent potential. A primordial soup, seething and boiling with inchoate matter craving to exist. The crystal sphere of Realmspace is like a beaker or petri dish into which Ao poured his experiment. (Well, actually, it looks more like a florence flask.)
Over time, the area within the crystal sphere fractured into discrete ethereal, elemental, and material planes in a series of phase transitions, spontaneous symmetry-breaking events where the Ethereal Plane fragmented (or resolved) into distinct, separate elemental planes. And eventually, a nascent material plane formed out of those constituent elements. In the creation myth, Selūne and Shar are said to have formed the celestial bodies from these elements. And Selūne is explicitly said to have created the sun from substance drawn from the Elemental Plane of Fire.
The Astral Plane in turn sublimes out of the Material Plane, created from the collective psyche, soul, or incarnum of the material world. There is some question as to whether sentient life had to evolve before this could happen. I dont think this is necessarily required. Perhaps the life energy of plants, algae, or even just bacteria was sufficient. According to some animistic beliefs, even rocks and physical objects have souls. So perhaps this was sufficient to create an astral plane. The Astral Plane may have appeared very soon after the Material Plane formed, rheified from the platonic essence of the shapes formed by the newly created matter.
In 4e, while it may appear that the Ethereal no longer exists, I would suggest rather that it is still there, just blended into the Elemental Chaos by the Spellplague event. The Spellplague acted like a Cuisinart, chopping all the elemental planes up and mixing them into each other. Whereas before, the elemental planes were discrete planes floating in the Ethereal; after the plane of Dweomerheart exploded, the elemental planes were all stirred together to the point that the Ethereal Plane was no longer perceptible as a distinct plane. The Elemental Chaos is like a colloid or an emulsion, the Ethereal is the liquid in which the elements are suspended like drops of oil in water.
The Spellplague has rendered the Ethereal useless as a transitive plane. Although, I suspect that spells that used to turn you Ethereal, would now simply bring you to the Elemental Chaos.
You can no longer see from the Ethereal into the Material Plane because the Ethereal Plane is now clouded and obscured by elemental substances. Perhaps even the near and deep Ethereal are all mixed together to an extent that the unique properties of the near ethereal are no longer evident.
It may be that with time, the separate elements will resolve into separate planes again forming distinct elemental, para-elemental, and quasi-elemental planes floating in an ethereal plane as they did before. However, I suspect that such time frames will take more on the scale of eons rather than something that will be happen within mortal life spans.
To some extent the segregation of the elements into distinct planes may be facilitated and accelerated by its inhabitants. Marids and water elementals may consolidate pools of water together to expand their territories and create more comfortable environments for themselves. These pools merge into lakes, lakes into seas, seas into oceans and so on. Likewise efreets and fire elementals consolidate areas of fire and lava, djinns and air elementals filter out the base matter from their pure air and clouds, and so on. Over time, this collective action may slowly and gradually help to reestablish the separate elemental planes once again in timescales somewhat quicker than would take through natural condensation.
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Cosmology
