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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 02:17:28
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the similarities of the archmage's arcane
fire ability, spellfire, and silver fire
here at Candlekeep? Or is this something
I saw at a another website long ago, and
now will never find again.
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 15:19:32
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| IIRC, at the end of Hand of Fire, silver fire is called a type of spellfire. It has been many years since I read that trilogy though. Not one of my favorites. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 16:56:45
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-Doesn't ring a bell, but let's start one now.
-The basis for all three abilities are similar. Spellfire is a manifestation of Raw Magic in an individual. Spellfire is a blessing that Mystra imbues in her Chosen. Arcane Fire is an Archmage ability that breaks down specifically memorized spells into generic magical energy. The common thread between the three is manipulating raw magical energies (and, I don't mean "Raw Magic", per se, as in the underlying power in the cosmos. I mean it like magical energy that isn't shaped into a specific spell). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 17:18:07
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I would term them as follows:
Arcane Fire: The ability of an archmage to take the energy within memorised spells, breaking them down into a more generic "blast" of magical energy. The more skilled they are (read: the more archmage levels they possess), the better they are at breaking the energy down to gain the greatest possible benefit from it.
Spellfire: Absorbing and producing "raw magic" by channeling it through your body. It "bypasses" the Weave, so to speak, but is ultimately somewhat uncontrollable (Shandril eventually overloaded and blew herself up, after all). Because it bypasses the Weave, however, it is also dangerous. You can't teleport, for example, as doing so would burn a hole in the Weave around you - IIRC, Ed has mentioned that there was a cut section of Spellfire that had Elminster warning Shandril not to try teleportation, since she'd blow a hole in the Weave/reality as a result. There's also issues with spells like Blink (causing the spellfire wielder pain) and attempting to pass through spell barriers (the dropped plot thread of Shandril in Silverymoon would have had her "burning through" Silverymoon's wards from the inside out).
Silver Fire: Not specifically raw magic, though it is fueled by it (Khelben mentions that once his body has absorbed enough of the raw energy of the Weave, he'll be able to unleash it once more). Instead, I would classify it as raw Weave energy, manifested from the fragment of divine essence that all Mystra's Chosen (and Mystra herself) carry. So you're gifted with a shard of divine essence, which then allows you to "shoot" it at somebody else, though you'll need to stabilise yourself afterward by your body drawing in enough power to return things to equilibrium. Where spellfire is raw magic, silver fire is raw Weave. Nor would I say that one is "more" than the other. If anything, though, I'd say that silver fire is "more" than spellfire is (even if it's just because it's a shard of divine magical power, and a bit like like carrying a nuclear reactor - that you're standing inside - around on your back; you are, after all, holding a chunk of the entire magical network of energy that suffuses Realmspace within your body). When the Netherese (I think it was Netherese?) spirit was absorbing spellfire in Hand of Fire, he specifically avoided trying to deal with silver fire, because it was so much more painful and dangerous for him to touch than spellfire was.
The raw Weave seems to be more dangerous than raw magic. Now, this may be a result of the latter still having something to focus through (albeit the focus being a person rather than a vast magical tapestry of power) to produce its manifestation (i.e. while you're getting a face-full of raw magic when hit by spellfire, it's raw magic that could in theory be filtered through the Weave into your mind - so it isn't so much the sheer power of it as it is that you're dealing with it without any filter, like drinking straight alcohol without mixing your drinks; the end result is that you'll still get drunk, as in burned by the energy, but it'll probably be faster than it would otherwise) and the former still being divinely charged, but more dangerous is more dangerous. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 01:43:10
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The term 'raw magic' is hardly used in Realmslore. The silver fire is a divine mystery; its exact nature, and relationship to a theoretical raw magic, hasn't been defined. Certainly the many vivid descriptions of the silver fire give no hint that it's not really essential but just a manifestation of something else. It could be. But this is all speculation.
It's important to note, also, that silver fire and Mystra's divine essence aren't distinct. |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 01:51:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It's important to note, also, that silver fire and Mystra's divine essence aren't distinct.
This is very interesting, Sage. After a gout of silverfire has been issued by a Chosen to say, blast a beholder to smithereens, is that portion of 'divine essence' spent, nullified, gone's-ville?
I can totally dig this in regards to 'healing' zones of Dead Magic. But, I wonder why this use of silverfire is more taxing on the Chosen than blasting a beholder to smithereens? |
Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 03 Jun 2011 01:51:44 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 03:13:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It's important to note, also, that silver fire and Mystra's divine essence aren't distinct.
This is very interesting, Sage. After a gout of silverfire has been issued by a Chosen to say, blast a beholder to smithereens, is that portion of 'divine essence' spent, nullified, gone's-ville?
Well, I believe that Mystra gave her Chosen some of her divine essence, the silver fire, precisely because it does still exist if she, that is the Weave, is destroyed. That's what the sources say.
Thus, in your example, I would say such divine essence would be spent. Though I don't think it's ever been clearly defined as to what happens to the spent silver fire, after that.
This might be one for Ed.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 13:29:37
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| There has been some Candlekeep speculation about a Shadow Weave counterpart to Spellfire (Shadowfire, Sharfire, darkfire?), though I don't think it's at all canon. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 18:00:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
There has been some Candlekeep speculation about a Shadow Weave counterpart to Spellfire (Shadowfire, Sharfire, darkfire?), though I don't think it's at all canon.
-No, it's not, and I have to admit, I do find the concept of it kind of stupid, 'Darkfire'. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 00:11:30
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What has me troubled about the 3 fires is that they
all seem to be very similar, they all do 1/2 fire
1/2 arcane energy. I think the colors are the
same between arcane fire and the descriptions of
silver fire I seen in like EiH. It's hard to
pinpoint the differences between arcane fire and
the other 2 (which was the point of this thread,
discussing arcane fire.)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 02:24:43
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Ed has said that there is no Shadow Weave version of Spellfire, just renderings that might "look" like Spellfire... but it is not Spellfire.
From Ed:-
"Shar CAN grant her followers corrupted versions of the same powers Mystra gives, but darkfire and the like are mere shadows of Mystras boons, not equivalents. So, theres no dark version of spellfire or the silver fire, despite the claims of Shar or her clergy to the contrary, just inferior unleashings." |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 03:58:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It's important to note, also, that silver fire and Mystra's divine essence aren't distinct.
This is very interesting, Sage. After a gout of silverfire has been issued by a Chosen to say, blast a beholder to smithereens, is that portion of 'divine essence' spent, nullified, gone's-ville?
My understanding, based on what I've read, is that it's gone, spread out around them (or around their target) and melding with the Weave. However, the Chosen are designed so that their bodies will "re-absorb" more of the Weave around them, returning the balance and replenishing their store. Think of them as like rechargeable batteries, in a way.
Presumably, using it to recharge a dead magic zone would be more draining because the silver fire you expend isn't actually just melding around you and eventually being reabsorbed - it's entirely used up in restoring the dead magic zone to full "compliance" with the rest of the Weave. So when the body of the Chosen goes to absorb more of the Weave from around them, they're not re-absorbing it (to re-absorb it would recreate the dead magic zone that their silver fire has just been used to erase), but are actually draining the Weave in order to restore their internal "balance" of stored power.
Regarding what Shar can give her followers, I think Ed has said that spellfire will rend Shadow Weave magic even faster than regular magic, and you wouldn't regenerate anything from it if trying to absorb energy into yourself. Shadow Weave magic is just that - a shadow. Spellfire has substance.
quote:
It's hard to
pinpoint the differences between arcane fire and
the other 2 (which was the point of this thread,
discussing arcane fire.)
Think of it this way. When you memorise a spell, you are trapping a bit of stored power inside your mind. Novel characters do refer to the feeling of carrying "power" in their heads, after all (I think Araevin mentions that it feels "electrifying" or something like that in one of the Last Mythal books). Arcane Fire is simply converting that stored power into a generic energy blast. It's not silver fire or spellfire (and each manifestation of it may look different - some might be blue, some might be red, some might be green, some might be pink, some might be all colours of the rainbow). It's just unlocking the memorised spell in another way - a way that creates an energy blast. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 02:54:11
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Silverfire is supposed to burn through all kinds of defenses, right? Even Larloch said [or implied?] that all his contingencies would be easily obliterated by silverfire. Yet how come Telamont managed to shield himself from silverfire? Was it purely because of plot-armor, or something else? Had Ed addressed this in the past? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 17:38:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Silverfire is supposed to burn through all kinds of defenses, right? Even Larloch said [or implied?] that all his contingencies would be easily obliterated by silverfire. Yet how come Telamont managed to shield himself from silverfire? Was it purely because of plot-armor, or something else? Had Ed addressed this in the past?
-Author fiat, of sorts. A lot of stuff that Troy Denning wrote in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, concerning Silver Fire, and Shadow Weave magic and "Weave" magic interacting, doesn't have any basis in D&D rules, or previous canon. The thing is, though, a lot of the stuff that he wrote about, like the interaction between Silver Fire and Shadow Weave magic, never happened in D&D before (because the Shadow Weave was newly introduced), so there is the possibility that WotC just decided to go in a different direction than the one Mr. Denning established, rather than him going against the grain. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 21:57:29
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So this generic spell energy is not raw magic. So
do we consider arcane fire purified, or highly filtered,
or maybe, to use a crude example, a different chemical
makeup but using the same molecules?
Edit: Just looked at the description of arcane
fire in the 3.5 DMG and it does say raw arcane energy.
I should take this to Ed, shouldn't I? |
Edited by - althen artren on 07 Jun 2011 23:47:36 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
So this generic spell energy is not raw magic. So
do we consider arcane fire purified, or highly filtered,
or maybe, to use a crude example, a different chemical
makeup but using the same molecules?
Edit: Just looked at the description of arcane
fire in the 3.5 DMG and it does say raw arcane energy.
I should take this to Ed, shouldn't I?
-Obviously, there's the fact that the DMG is not Realms-specific, but that aside, that the Archmage's Arcane Fire is "raw arcane energy" doesn't mean it's "Raw Magic", in terms of what "Raw Magic" is defined as in Forgotten Realms products. A spell or item or effect or whatever else that deals non-elemental, generic magic damage (as I interpret "raw arcane energy" to be) still would be filtered through the Weave (or Shadow Weave). That it's "raw arcane energy" just means, to me anyway, that it hasn't been given specific 'shape', like regular spells are. A spellcaster, he/she/it draws forth power, 'shapes' it into his/her/it's spell, and casts it. In this case, we have the Archmage letting loose that power without 'shaping' it into anything specific. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:12:52
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| I think the Silver Fire is something that unlike others have great NDA about them. I would not be surprised if they got completely new function unlocked later. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 03:08:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Author fiat, of sorts. A lot of stuff that Troy Denning wrote in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, concerning Silver Fire, and Shadow Weave magic and "Weave" magic interacting, doesn't have any basis in D&D rules, or previous canon.
Interestingly, later on we had the Shadowdale adventure path, the latter of which involves the Chosen of Mystra being locked out of Shadowdale because of the Rite of Unwinding. Because of the effects of the Rite as a Shadow Weave construct, silver fire reacts badly to it and forces Chosen to either get out as fast as they can (3d6 damage per round in the first area of the Rite, 6d6 per round in the second area), or come wearing enough auto-heal magic items to nullify the damage. The latter would take a lot of healing magic, too.
Telamont blocking silver fire I would ascribe to three things:
1) He is a centuries-old archmage, and is well aware of the potential for the Chosen of Mystra to mess up his plans if he isn't ready for them.
2) Towards that end, he designed a custom epic spell (i.e. it doesn't use the Shadow Weave, so no issue with Weave-based interaction) to diffuse or deflect the silver fire of Mystra's Chosen.
3) Author fiat. He's the Big Bad Evil Guy of the trilogy, and giving him such an unheard-of ability emphasises how powerful he is. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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So has there ever been a discussion between...
