| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 22 May 2011 : 17:39:47
|
This was a side-discussion in the recently sealed Gay Marriage. And I think it deserves its own thread, so here it is...
The Empire of Shade has been scouring the entire Faerun to locate the fallen enclaves with salvageable mythallars. Sakkors was found and is now floating over Sembia. Another was found near Neverwinter. And we shouldn't be surprised if they find two, three or a dozen more in the near future. But why not grab the obvious first? Why not seize Skullport?
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
To dennis the whole skull thing is just kinda out, cos telamont will most likely not go for them, maybe because of their thought processes, they just dont seem very rational at least for a sane person that is, and the skulls just might jeopardize the shadovar ops.
Upon knowing the Skulls' uncooperative response, Telamont could have easily destroyed them had he really wanted to. But I have a conjecture why he didn't. That is, the Skulls might be strongly tied to Skullport's mythallar that killing them would mean the mythallar's destruction. Remember that scene in Twilight War where Rivalen had to gently cajole the kraken Ssessimith because he was afraid that killing it would damage Sakkors's mythallar? Perhaps in that similar way the mythallar of Skullport had been irrevocably and irreversibly tied to the Skulls.
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 17:52:28
|
The mythallar in and around Skullport has been badly damaged (more then once, IIRC), and has been greatly altered by Halister over the years.
They can neither trust it, nor spare the resources to 'fix it' (and battle Halister, although in 4e that's no longer an issue... maybe...)
It would also not fly with Waterdeep, which DOES have the resources to pose a serious threat to the Shades. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
 |
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 18:16:52
|
They were able to fix the chinks-fraught, nearly inactive mythallar of Sakkors, so I don't see why they couldn't do the same to Skullport's.
Halaster is no longer an issue...Unless of course he had placed some considerably potent contingency spells on the mythallar which ensure that it would never be used outside the Underdark.
Though Shade could deal with Waterdeep and succeed, they would not waste their resources fighting them if they could avoid it. They would win, no doubt. But they'll have losses---which they could not afford, not yet. So, I think they will find less hazardous ways to raise Skullport. The Underdark is replete with shadows, so the Shadovar can cast high magic there without difficulty. They may just teleport Skullport to the Shadowfell, in the very area which is the shadow counterpart of Anauroch; fix the mythallar from there; teleport it back to the Prime in Anauroch; then finally, raise it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 19:19:33
|
Hi, all.
Dennis, this above comment of yours: "Telamont could have easily destroyed them" tells me you're operating from a severely limited/distorted by propaganda understanding of the Princes of Shade and that Netherese city in general.
There are many "powers" active in the Realms today that are greater than Telamont and his ilk, including some in Skullport. Most of these are as yet unrevealed or only partly revealed in print, as yet; my point is, you're only seeing a few pieces of a large and complex puzzle, and drawing incorrect conclusions from the little you can see.
So the easy answer to "Why did they not seize Skullport?" is: "They couldn't, and knew they couldn't, and so didn't try."
For one thing, you have consistently commented here at the Keep as if those of Shade are monolithic, obeying a perfect command structure and operating as one, without schisms, rivalries, behind-the-scenes disagreements, and competing aims/stances. The latter is true, not the former.
I wish I could say more, but (sigh) NDAs cluster thickly, in these particular glades in the woods of lore...
love,
THO |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 19:59:47
|
This is really falling into the Realm of opinion and not fact.
I personally feel the Shades aren't all that great; you do. We will never agree in this regard.
Sakkors was a ruin - any lore regarding it still being intact is inaccurate - the city simply DID NOT EXIST in any discernible form and could not have been repaired. There is magic, and then there is just piss-poor research. The wrong city was used - it should have been Nhalloth, which was ruined, but not obliterated (as was Sakkors - pg.20, SoFS)
EDIT: While researching the city names, THO beat me to a response, but it appears we were on the same page.
And Halaster is NOT dead - his soul was dispersed (which would equate to death in the RW, but certainly not in a D&D/Fantasy one). If Halaster's 'spirit' has merged with Undermountain itself, he could theoretically be far more powerful in 4e then ever before - we simply do not know. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 22 May 2011 21:35:15 |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 22:11:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And Halaster is NOT dead - his soul was dispersed (which would equate to death in the RW, but certainly not in a D&D/Fantasy one). If Halaster's 'spirit' has merged with Undermountain itself, he could theoretically be far more powerful in 4e then ever before - we simply do not know.
-I'd define having your soul sundered a fate worse than death. At least, with death, you can be resurrected fairly simply. Having your soul sundered, as was Halaster's fate, you can't even be resurrected without having your "pieces" reunited (tri-partite Arcanists would know). It is one step above having your soul completely annihilated, though. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 04:52:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi, all.
Dennis, this above comment of yours: "Telamont could have easily destroyed them" tells me you're operating from a severely limited/distorted by propaganda understanding of the Princes of Shade and that Netherese city in general.
There are many "powers" active in the Realms today that are greater than Telamont and his ilk, including some in Skullport. Most of these are as yet unrevealed or only partly revealed in print, as yet; my point is, you're only seeing a few pieces of a large and complex puzzle, and drawing incorrect conclusions from the little you can see.
So the easy answer to "Why did they not seize Skullport?" is: "They couldn't, and knew they couldn't, and so didn't try."
For one thing, you have consistently commented here at the Keep as if those of Shade are monolithic, obeying a perfect command structure and operating as one, without schisms, rivalries, behind-the-scenes disagreements, and competing aims/stances. The latter is true, not the former.
I wish I could say more, but (sigh) NDAs cluster thickly, in these particular glades in the woods of lore...
love,
THO
I would love to know why they couldn't and didn't try. Those "little" things I see [you said] are all there are to support my conclusion, so unless there's more printed materials to counter it, [like who those unknown greater powers in Skullport are] I'd stick to it.
Waterdeep's defenses had shown how easily they could be breached in RotA. Aglarel and Rivalen hardly exerted an effort to bypass their wards and the Lords' masks. Even a lone phaerimm managed to join the Lords' and their allies' supposedly private conference. And it doesn't help now that her Blackstaff is nothing but a wizard a hundred times less powerful than Khelben. Shade wouldn't wage war against Waterdeep because her neighbors would [without second thoughts] ally with her. Shade might survive a war against such alliance, now that they have Sembia, but I don't think Telamont would dare incur huge losses. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 06:48:11
|
-Even though it all happened and is canon, I'd try to avoid using the Return of the Archmages trilogy, in terms of figuring out of X could do Y, and so on. Troy Denning "broke a lot of the rules", in terms of how D&D stuff works and (by proxy and related) a lot of Realmslore. Not that I disagree in the assertion that if the Shadovar wanted to, and concentrated their resources on it, they could possibly seize control of Skullport, but, just in general.
-What book and/or series was it that involved the Skulls of Skullport (including one being destroyed, if I'm not mistaken), and the mythallar being damaged in some way? One of the Erevis Cale trilogy books? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 07:28:53
|
| I think it was book 2 of the Erevis Cale series. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 23 May 2011 07:29:50 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 09:11:27
|
Brim has the right of it. It was damaged by Vhostym's minions, but the Skulls came right on time to salvage it. How badly it was damaged remains unknown.
Now that I rethink it, perhaps MT is right...One more possibility that Shade does not bother to seize Skullport is that maybe its mythallar has been severely marred and is now weak that there exists no means to fix it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 23 May 2011 09:13:26 |
|
|
|
_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 11:32:08
|
I doubt they would be able to gain control over it. Their only chance would be if they manage to sneak in unoticed and escape with just the mythallar. Recovering the whole enclave would mean a lot of work and time to get it free from underground and there are a lot more groups than just waterdeep (even with only waterdeep i doubt that the shades would succeed so easily).
Skullport is a very important trade node between the underdark and the regions above, so there are not only all the more or less mighty beeings living in skullport but also all the groups and organizations which are running trade and other busines through skullport and might have to say something against destroying this port. |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 13:44:19
|
But the Shades are the sex!
They are uber cool and uber powerful.
|
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 29 May 2011 08:31:28 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 15:45:22
|
The skulls were TOO easily thwarted in Everis Cale - it was just one of many things I had issue with. Prior lore dictates that what happened there should not have been possible. The skulls have managed to keep every major underdark race from seizing control - including all of the Drow cities - and yet had a problem with a few frog-demons? I don't think so......
Not that I don't think Paul Kemp is a fabulous writer; in fact, I greatly enjoyed the series despite all it's flaws, which is a testimony to his writing. Normally when I see things violating logic that much I can't even finish a book.
This is why I have come to think of all novels as 'tall tales' told by bards in-game, which are based on truth, but the details greatly exaggerated. They violate the rules and lore willy-nilly, and should be considered canon stories (in-game), but not canon facts. It helps me sleep at night.
Or, conversely, that the novels take place in an alternate universe Realms from sourcebooks - that works as well. Events should be canon, but details should not be (but now I am getting into the "Why novels shouldn't be canon" argument again).
Either way, despite whatever official opinions WotC may have on the matter, the novels HAVE TO BE taken with a grain of salt, because they are meant to entertain, NOT to inform. 'Poetic License' is a tried-and-true tool of story-tellers since man first learned to speak. Enjoy the novels, but be wary of trying to boil crunchy bits out of them.
EDIT: And from a much less meta-gaming perspective, there are thousands of variables in any major undertaking in the Realms. THO touched upon this, but the fact is, no-one truly knows who will come to who's aid in an emergency - bitter enemies have been known to ally just to stop someone else from grabbing too much power; therein lies the true balance Ed achieved. If you've ever played a game of Risk, then you should be aware of what happens when one player gets too much ahead of the others - EVERYONE turns on him.
As for in-game examples.... Zhentish Orcs joined King Azoun's army to fight The Horde. THAT is what happens when one group threatens the balance of power. Another example: Bruenor sided with Obould against a greater threat. There are simply too many insanely powerful beings interested in Toril for any one group to become that monolithic. It is entirely possible that Luskan (the Hostower) and even Larloch would show up to help Waterdeep if it got into a fight with the Shades.
And Telemont is no idiot.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 23 May 2011 15:57:29 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 17:24:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Skullport is a very important trade node between the underdark and the regions above, so there are not only all the more or less mighty beeings living in skullport but also all the groups and organizations which are running trade and other busines through skullport and might have to say something against destroying this port.
The Most High would deal with them accordingly. If he were to reactivate the salvageable enclaves to be part of Reborn Netheril, he might have to confront some meddling powerful beings. I'm pretty sure he knows that, and is ready for it. He's careful, sly, calculating. But he's not delusional to think that all his efforts, however he tries to conceal them, would forever be unnoticed. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 18:37:03
|
Hi again, all.
Dennis, re. this: "I would love to know why they couldn't and didn't try. Those "little" things I see [you said] are all there are to support my conclusion, so unless there's more printed materials to counter it, [like who those unknown greater powers in Skullport are] I'd stick to it."
Well, you might stick to it. I was pointing out that the little things support other conclusions than the one you're trying to stick to, but you don't seem to understand that, so I'll say it a little more baldly this time around: the Netherese of Shade are nowhere near as uber-powerful, in relation to other groups in the Realms who would become opposed to them if they threw their weight around more than they have already, as you say in your posts they are.
Or to be more specific: if the Princes of Shade went into Skullport, or attacked Skullport with forces they can muster, they would win only if a WotC designer/writer had a strong plot need for them to do so, and managed to sweep at least three countervailing powers aside by keeping them busy elsewhere (the old "this villain managed to succeed because the Fantastic Four were off doing this, the Avengers were off doing that, and the - -" situation).
You went on to post: "Waterdeep's defenses had shown how easily they could be breached in RotA. Aglarel and Rivalen hardly exerted an effort to bypass their wards and the Lords' masks. Even a lone phaerimm managed to join the Lords' and their allies' supposedly private conference. And it doesn't help now that her Blackstaff is nothing but a wizard a hundred times less powerful than Khelben. Shade wouldn't wage war against Waterdeep because her neighbors would [without second thoughts] ally with her. Shade might survive a war against such alliance, now that they have Sembia, but I don't think Telamont would dare incur huge losses."
NOW you're getting it. It's not a raw power duel, it's a question of risk/benefit, and the fact that Telamont isn't stupid, and would therefore see the ongoing costs: even if he "won" this particular battle, he'd now be on everyone's radar as "another crazy to be taken care of, before he wanders into MY neck of the woods."
I'd back Elminster against Telamont any day. And Larloch against both of them. And that's just two names off the top of my head.
Which all goes to back up Alystra Illianniis in per point that this is all rather pointless. "Who's the best, who's the prettiest" arguments lost their appeal for me back before my schoolyard days.
However, Dennis, if you're citing the "little things" to back up your view of the great potency of Shade, I think you'd better take a harder look at those little things: not only to do they lead to some differing conclusions if the looker wants them to, they underscore what I mentioned, in my earlier post: the city of Shade is NOT one big happily-united force. It's the usual stewpot of simmering-below-the-surface rivalries, cabals, and working-against-each-other rivalries.
Which, let's face it, is WAY more interesting than the "Telamont for President, we all worship the ground his boots hover above" view. 
love,
THO |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 19:20:40
|
| Can we have elminster for Pres? I'd vote for him- just cause he's more likeable than, say, Szass Tam, for instance.... And much more rational, to boot. (Yeah, cause we ALL want a Dread Ring in our backyard, right?) ;) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 19:25:46
|
My advice; have it done the way you want it done in your home game and be satisfied. My home game had Many-Arrows crush the Silver Marches(with Obould personally slaying Alustriel) and conquering much of the Savage Frontier, with Waterdeep remaining as one of the few bastions against it's advance. Do I ever expect that or anything like that to happen in anything resembling canon? Nope. Wouldn't be good for the setting or the story they're telling and doesn't fit with the preferences of the vast majority of the fan base. Not to mention status quo being sacred and all that(which is a weaker argument after the whole spellplague thing, but still holds).
Point being, keep it the way you want in your game and don't expect anything to change outside of that. It's satisfactory. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 19:35:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The skulls were TOO easily thwarted in Everis Cale - it was just one of many things I had issue with.
-Agreed. I don't really remember too much about those books, but the battle in Skullport with the Skulls still sticks out with me as just being too simple, in regards to the Skulls of Skullport being involved. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 20:55:16
|
Wow Dennis, you've lain out a veritable *feast* for thought!
So many great points have been brought up by many posters; I feel as if I'm a little late for the show, and totally upstaged by these more timely worthies, but I'd like to join the conversation.
Schisms that exist within Netheril seems to me to be a running theme in THO's responses above, and theme with which I would like to begin. I really like how this ties in with the topic of Telemonts stated goal of reclaiming the lost relics of Netheril.
The point's of light in Paul S. Kemp's Twilight War trilogy were vastly diminished by strong, prominent anti-heroes and protago-villains. Abelar the Lathanderian was at series end fundamentally staggered by moral failings; though later inspiring the 'will to survive' in his countrymen. Strangely, I felt that the greatest message of hope came from one of the series' darkest villains: Rivalen Tanthul.
When the High Priest of Shar, the Nightseer, stared out across the shattered husk of Ephyra, he feared Shar's will, and rails against it. In that moment he recollects his fathers, his, goal to raise Netheril. Staring out upon his goddesses ultimate end, destruction, he wants to build.
He collects coins, this does not seem to me to be the behavior of an uber-nihilist. He loves his brothers, we the get to see a lot of interaction with Brennus (the sensitive brother who crafts synthetic people (*brilliant*). He loves his father, who knows the whole story.
Telemont Tanthul is not mad. His embrace of Shar is much less devout than Rivalen's, though his embrace of the Shadow Weave might be a different story... I think even in some of his lamer portrayals he comes across as a pretty stellar super-genius. I believe that his sense of expansionist empire was born of an age of expansionist empire; and that the situation on the ground has evolved rapidly since the Year of Wild Magic. Stellar super-geniuses adapt, and in this case, quite well. Indeed, by the Year of the Grinning Halfling, Thultanthar rises above all other crowns of kingdoms. (At least, from the perspective of standing on the ground.)
In short, there are strong ties that bind these exiles in time, these men of the Arcane Age. (And where the hell are the women?) In my view, these schisms can at once be viewed as strengths. The Tanthuls were a family, before becoming an empire.
It seems to me that Telemont has been relatively methodical in his approach to securing his empire. To be clear, I do not think that Telemont wants to "conquer the world". Telemont, as an epic spellcaster, has looked out upon the infinite. Telemont, in my opinion, believes that Netheril is the pinnacle of culture and civilization, and want to maintain it and grow.
Markus really hit it on the head with his remarks about Sakkors, though I would not have taken it quite so far. When Sakkors fell, it left a 15 mile-long trench in the sea floor after it crashed through 700 feet of water! But, I think that the Source, being a unique, possibly experimental, mythal at the time of the Fall, means that it would've been well protected. It was housed in a protective chamber; and in an age where your opposition could easily muster 50 meteor swarms against your mythal, I believe these protections would've been impressive. Also, I love the idea of a quasi-sentient mythal psionically calling a kraken polyp, then symbiotically fusing with it. Since the mythal itself was small and mobile, it's almost easier to 'hook'. (Those that have read the series will catch my meaning, lol). My reading of the pertinent pages from Sea of Fallen Stars wherein it states "With 1,600 years of shipwrecks, subsea wars, and civilizations rising and falling, it is anyones guess as to what remains recognizable if not usable." seems to give anyone who is diving into this source material pretty of artistic elbow room.
So what about Skullport? Waterdeep is an economical powerhouse. Undermountain. Halaster. Geo-political alliances in the North, that only grow stronger by the Year of the Grinning Halfling. Lot's of reasons *not* to shock and awe.
I believe that the most likely scenario, and the answer to Dennis' original query, it that Telemont would simply ask the remaining Skulls to join up. And use them in no capacity other then to have them do what they do anyway. Be friends. Those Skulls that remain after Vhostyms attack are re-bound to the mythal. They *are* undead, Netherese Arcanists with some fleeting memory of their long lives. Indeed, "only Netherese Magic would be powerful enough" (or so a Skull might think) to free the remaining Skulls. Indeed, "the status quo (in Skullport) has come to a rapid and unclear end". City of Splendors: Waterdeep pg. 111. And I really don't see any reason why the Skulls would not try to use Tanthul, as he them, to pursue their ultimate goals. (To be free of their 'prison') Skullport pg 22, City of Spledors: Waterdeep pg.111.
By the Year of the Ageless one, we know that Skullport is inhabited by houseless drow and spellscarred kobolds, and that strange seemingly wild magic effects like unto living spells charge and discharge magical items and magically alter living creatures. Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide pgs. 199 and 233. Is this the Skulls, or more lingering Spellplague, or something far more nefarious?
(I don't know, obviously.)
Anyway, those are my thoughts on how Shade might have seized Skullport Port Shadow, via the Skulls. |
Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 23 May 2011 20:58:43 |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 22:15:41
|
Saer Cormaeril's final point reflects one of my own: who are we to know that the Netherese *didn't* seize Skullport or at least forge an alliance with the Skulls?
Also, I think Waterdeep is a little far from Netheril and has a few too many powerful guardians in place to be a practical site of conquest. The Skullport mythal might be on Telamont's agenda, but he's got his hands full protecting and expanding the empire he *does* have. There might well be more cities under the Anauroch (ahem, at least ONE I can think of right now), and those offer a much better cost/benefit analysis than an isolated, distant colony that you can't possibly defend nearly as well as your home turf. And if you *are* going to look for a distant colony, pick one in a more remote area where not as many potent potential adversaries have a vested interest (i.e. bloody Waterdeep, for crying out loud).
Also, why conquer the mortal Skullport when you can take the shadow-Skullport instead?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 22:47:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Saer Cormaeril's final point reflects one of my own: who are we to know that the Netherese *didn't* seize Skullport or at least forge an alliance with the Skulls?
-If anyone would be able to "convince" the Skulls of Skullport, it'd be the Shadovar, having the hand-on experience of being familiar with the intricacies of Netherese magic (and, thusly, being able to possibly influence/manipulate it), and the political ambition. Most of the other Netherese survivors who still exist (Ioulaum, Larlarch) don't particularly seem to care- as far as we can tell, based on what we know of them and their goals as of last we've seen them.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
There might well be more cities under the Anauroch (ahem, at least ONE I can think of right now)
-Just finished rereading Depths of Madness, and I may or may not have to ask for an explanation as to how Nagarath was built. I may or may not PM you later, after rereading that specific area in the book for my review.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also, why conquer the mortal Skullport when you can take the shadow-Skullport instead?
-I don't think such a place exist, necessarily. Topography is conterminous between the Prime and the Plane of Shadows, but specific sites on either aren't. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 05:31:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also, why conquer the mortal Skullport when you can take the shadow-Skullport instead?
Cheers
I really like this, Eric. The Shadowfell 'reflection' of Skullport Port Shadow could be far simpler for the Shadovar to claim and hold, and could, by The Year of the Ageless One, be the home of the Skulls. Maybe a Shadow-wrought reconstruction of Sargauth Enclave is just the thing to appease a group of disembodied, undead, Netherese Arcanists?
It might also be easier to pull Sargauth's mythal to the Plane of Shadow than to rip it out of the ground... |
Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 24 May 2011 05:33:51 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 06:10:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
To be clear, I do not think that Telemont wants to "conquer the world".
That's contrary to what he said in Shadowrealm during his brief and life-altering conversation with his son, Brennus.
-----
THO and Alystra,
I am not saying that Shade is the most powerful group in the Realms and therefore can do anything that they please. That's a different story, and if my OP somewhat implies that, well, might as well disregard it as that's not my point in starting this thread.
Telamont intends to conquer the world, or at the very least, expand his empire---make it grow in size and power to guarantee an unassailable, unshakeable status of being the most powerful. They are on their way, but they are not yet there... To help ensure their success, the Most High intends to reactivate the fallen enclaves with fixable mythallars. There's Sakkors, and that's already a job well done. Now there's Skullport, an extremely obvious target which for some reason they haven't yet seized. And that made me wonder why.
No way would Telamont dare war [in the open] with Waterdeep and her neighbors. The losses would be staggering. But that does not mean the only way to seize control of Skullport is to also fight the City of Splendors. Shade managed to take Sembia first by working behind the shadows... Spreading rumors, intrigues, and falsely swearing alliance. They did not just appear out of nowhere and waged war against Ordulin, Selgaunt and the rest of the cities. They planted seeds of discord amongst the cities' leaders, and swooped down at the last minute to feign a heroic rescue. [See the details in Shadowstorm.] That same tactic they could employ in taking over Skullport. If a bunch of frog-demons managed to enter the heavily warded place that housed the mythallar and damaged it, surely, the Shadovar can do so much more. I don't see them doing that by suddenly appearing out of thin air, but by careful planning, and mayhap, bargaining with some of those unknown great powers that have vested interest in Skullport. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 06:51:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That's contrary to what he said in Shadowrealm during his brief and life-altering conversation with his son, Brennus.
Is it? Telemont and Brennus converse on pgs.91-94, and again on pgs. 114-121 in Shadowrealm. I assume you are referring to the second conversation, which includes Mephistopheles' revelation. In that conversation, Telemont indicates that he would go to great lengths to satisfy his ambition for empire. He doesn't state that he wants to conquer the world, and I think that his statements in those pages are in line with my thoughts.
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
It seems to me that Telemont has been relatively methodical in his approach to securing his empire. To be clear, I do not think that Telemont wants to "conquer the world". Telemont, as an epic spellcaster, has looked out upon the infinite. Telemont, in my opinion, believes that Netheril is the pinnacle of culture and civilization, and want to maintain it and grow.
Heck, lol, Telemont even states the bit about staring out upon the infinite in that second conversation (pg. 120).
Anyway, again, great topic, Dennis! |
Brace Cormaeril |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 06:58:04
|
@LK: I'd be happy to discuss whatever you wish, within the bounds of NDAs.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also, why conquer the mortal Skullport when you can take the shadow-Skullport instead?
-I don't think such a place exist, necessarily. Topography is conterminous between the Prime and the Plane of Shadows, but specific sites on either aren't.
Well, it's a possibility (part of the shadowdark?), and we're talking about a home Realms game anyway. So lots of room for doubt.
Cheers
|
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 07:11:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That's contrary to what he said in Shadowrealm during his brief and life-altering conversation with his son, Brennus.
Is it? Telemont and Brennus converse on pgs.91-94, and again on pgs. 114-121 in Shadowrealm. I assume you are referring to the second conversation, which includes Mephistopheles' revelation. In that conversation, Telemont indicates that he would go to great lengths to satisfy his ambition for empire. He doesn't state that he wants to conquer the world, and I think that his statements in those pages are in line with my thoughts.
Here are a couple of excerpts from Shadowrealm:
quote:
He [Brennus] and Rivalen needed information if they were to fulfill the Most High's charge to annex Sembia and make it the economic workhorse of the reborn Empire of Netheril. To that end, they were to leave the realm only mildly scarred by war.
quote:
"You are not a man, Father."
Telemont regarded him with an odd expression, both sad and defiant. "No. Not for a long time, Brennus."
"All this for empire, Most High?"
Telemont looked puzzled at the question. "What else is there?"
Taking over Sembia [and Lurue-only-knows what next] is an imperialist's move. Why stop at conquering just one realm when he can [in time] conquer the others? Which reminds me...If they succeeded in seizing such a huge realm that I suppose many powerful beings also have vested interest in, why not a city that's several times smaller? Sure, Sembia didn't have Netherese magic [which the Skulls have] to defend her people, but she had a number of mages and allies who should have been enough to fight the Shadovar. So my conjecture as to why Shade didn't [yet] grab Skullport has nothing to do with the Skulls' powers nor the unknown beings interested in Skullport's continued operation. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 24 May 2011 07:27:14 |
|
|
|
_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 08:32:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
If a bunch of frog-demons managed to enter the heavily warded place that housed the mythallar and damaged it, surely, the Shadovar can do so much more
Well to be fair those weren't just some "frog-demons" but sladi empored by vosthym. Although we know almost nothing about vosthym, by the descriptions in the books he is a far more powerfull beeing than everyone else (except gods) we have known to this point.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
No way would Telamont dare war [in the open] with Waterdeep and her neighbors. The losses would be staggering. But that does not mean the only way to seize control of Skullport is to also fight the City of Splendors. Shade managed to take Sembia first by working behind the shadows... Spreading rumors, intrigues, and falsely swearing alliance.
Yes but Waterdeep is far more stable society than Sembia and it has a lot of mighty inhabitants who work continously to unreavel such plots. So it would be far more harder than in Sembia |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 08:40:26
|
Jarlaxle,
By snipping my post that way, you're making it appear that I'm saying that the same tactic Shade used on Sembia they should also use on Waterdeep. Which I'm not. That is for Skullport. And again, I don't think Shade would fight Waterdeep, at least not yet, just to seize Skulls' domain. They would find some far less hazardous means, some of which I already explained. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Why did they not seize Skullport?
