| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 17:39:47
This was a side-discussion in the recently sealed Gay Marriage. And I think it deserves its own thread, so here it is...
The Empire of Shade has been scouring the entire Faerun to locate the fallen enclaves with salvageable mythallars. Sakkors was found and is now floating over Sembia. Another was found near Neverwinter. And we shouldn't be surprised if they find two, three or a dozen more in the near future. But why not grab the obvious first? Why not seize Skullport?
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
To dennis the whole skull thing is just kinda out, cos telamont will most likely not go for them, maybe because of their thought processes, they just dont seem very rational at least for a sane person that is, and the skulls just might jeopardize the shadovar ops.
Upon knowing the Skulls' uncooperative response, Telamont could have easily destroyed them had he really wanted to. But I have a conjecture why he didn't. That is, the Skulls might be strongly tied to Skullport's mythallar that killing them would mean the mythallar's destruction. Remember that scene in Twilight War where Rivalen had to gently cajole the kraken Ssessimith because he was afraid that killing it would damage Sakkors's mythallar? Perhaps in that similar way the mythallar of Skullport had been irrevocably and irreversibly tied to the Skulls. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Aug 2011 : 10:42:02
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Why did they not seize Skullport?
- Telamont had a toothache/headache/epic hangover the day they were planning it, and was more interested in the pain in his jaw/head. Whereupon he muttered something about "my poor skull..." and the others at the meeting thought he was taking pity on the Skulls and letting them live. It did provoke some awkward speculation about his relationships, though.
- Because there is an ancient Underdark magic, Sayills'powah, that has granted them great endurance in times long gone. The Shadovar do not wish to contend against the forces of the Underdark until they feel they have a greater dominance in Sayills'powah magic, that will keep them safer from the repercussions.
- Because the first Shadovar to scout it out encountered Jarlaxle, who wanted to keep Skullport's profits around. He was charming at them, and confused them utterly. They're not going near the Underdark again until they're less bewildered.
Pick one.
*Technically, Telamont has no skull. He is made purely of shadowstuff.
*Sayills'powah? That can easily be countered by the archwizards' whatevah magic.
*To the Shadovar, Jarlaxle is an insignificant insect. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 21 Aug 2011 : 07:30:48
 |
| Lady Shadowflame |
Posted - 21 Aug 2011 : 05:28:24
Why did they not seize Skullport?
- Telamont had a toothache/headache/epic hangover the day they were planning it, and was more interested in the pain in his jaw/head. Whereupon he muttered something about "my poor skull..." and the others at the meeting thought he was taking pity on the Skulls and letting them live. It did provoke some awkward speculation about his relationships, though.
- Because there is an ancient Underdark magic, Sayills'powah, that has granted them great endurance in times long gone. The Shadovar do not wish to contend against the forces of the Underdark until they feel they have a greater dominance in Sayills'powah magic, that will keep them safer from the repercussions.
- Because the first Shadovar to scout it out encountered Jarlaxle, who wanted to keep Skullport's profits around. He was charming at them, and confused them utterly. They're not going near the Underdark again until they're less bewildered.
Pick one. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Aug 2011 : 04:41:14
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Re. "they were as Netherese as their predecessors, in almost every way."
Dennis, what led you to form this impression?
Because I'm pretty sure that the majority of the Netherese who fled doomed Netheril in skyships to form Halruaa tried to form a society that was DIFFERENT than those dominated by the archwizards . . . er, in almost every way.
That's the impression I've gathered from Ed and various learned sages over the years.
?
BB
Almost all of them were magic-users. High offices could only be occupied by powerful (or politically influential) wizards. The wizards specialized in different schools, though of course they weren't really the same schools/disciplines as what their ancestors had. They were still fascinated by or fixated on the magic of flight, as evidenced by their skyships, whose construction was inspired by the floating enclaves. They used all sorts of magical items to better their day-to-day living. Even the petty squabbling of some wizards smacked of their predecessors' way of life. All these are reminiscent of the old Netheril. If there's anything that made them different from their ancestors, it's their less decadent lifestyle and their true devotion to Mystra.
Edit: Hence, I said in almost every way. I didn't say entirely, did I? |
| Blueblade |
Posted - 20 Aug 2011 : 22:15:01
Re. "they were as Netherese as their predecessors, in almost every way."
Dennis, what led you to form this impression?
Because I'm pretty sure that the majority of the Netherese who fled doomed Netheril in skyships to form Halruaa tried to form a society that was DIFFERENT than those dominated by the archwizards . . . er, in almost every way.
That's the impression I've gathered from Ed and various learned sages over the years.
?
BB |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Aug 2011 : 14:39:27
One may change his notion when High Imaskar is given considerable screen time. Unfortunately, what it has and what is revealed so far about it is so little...
Another proof that resurrecting a dead culture does not necessarily mean cheapening the said culture is Halruaa. While outsiders didn't know of of Halruaa's legacy, all Halruaans did, and they were as Netherese as their predecessors, in almost every way, save for not wanting to expand their country into an empire. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Jul 2011 : 05:26:35
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wouldn't use the word "cheapens." High Imaskar rose from the ashes, but that hardly cheapened the legacy of lost Imaskar. It would all depend on the context and the author's ability to portray it with riveting qualities.
-I think High Imaskar most certainly does 'cheapen' Imaskar. Especially in the convoluted (and contrived, given who the leader of High Imaskar was) way that it was birthed, in Bruce Cordell's Darkvision, and the subsequent information-lite FRCG/FRPG sourcebooks. The legacy, the mystique, of something old loses it's sheen if it finds it's way back. Take, for example, the premise of Jurassic Park. After a while, if dinosaurs were brought back to life and kept in captivity, they'd be seen as akin to the more exotic zoo creatures we see in our zoos, and not...dinosaurs! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 05:34:57
I wouldn't use the word "cheapens." High Imaskar rose from the ashes, but that hardly cheapened the legacy of lost Imaskar. It would all depend on the context and the author's ability to portray it with riveting qualities. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 30 Jun 2011 : 18:01:14
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wonder, if "supposed" fallen enclaves could suddenly appear out of nowhere for a novel's plot requirement, why not a less known surviving, still floating enclave? Mayhap a deity teleported it to some plane of existence before the Fall, and shifted it back after. Now they're floating in some unknown, uncharted part of Toril, totally isolated but prospering nonetheless... Though I like Shade, it wouldn't hurt to see the old and familiar. Shade's might and culture could be representative of ancient Netheril, but hardly is the magic they utilize.
-Completely plausible. The more Netherese Enclaves that survived the Fall cheapens Netheril's legacy as a fallen ancient culture, I think, but if an author/designer wants to, and gets the green light from his/her bosses, there's no reason it couldn't happen. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Jun 2011 : 23:27:00
I wonder, if "supposed" fallen enclaves could suddenly appear out of nowhere for a novel's plot requirement, why not a less known surviving, still floating enclave? Mayhap a deity teleported it to some plane of existence before the Fall, and shifted it back after. Now they're floating in some unknown, uncharted part of Toril, totally isolated but prospering nonetheless... Though I like Shade, it wouldn't hurt to see the old and familiar. Shade's might and culture could be representative of ancient Netheril, but hardly is the magic they utilize. |
| Thieran |
Posted - 29 Jun 2011 : 14:22:01
It's not surprising that not everything is stated explicitly in our sources. That's why plausibility matters - and in that respect, I must say that I prefer LK's and Wooly's reasonings. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Jun 2011 : 12:27:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Obviously, not all enclaves had such noteworthy contributions. This is further proof of insignificance. How much more do you need?
Oh, and this quote? Pretty much says that some enclaves weren't all that important.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Possible, but I'd say only to the "lesser" enclaves. Phaerimm "corruption" of the mythallars of the enclaves like Karsus's, Ioulaum's, Larloch's, Shade, and Delia without attracting the attention of their respective archwizards is highly unlikely. The archwizards (at least the ones at the top of the hierarchy) were strongly attuned to their mythallars it's almost absurd to think they wouldn't notice anything amiss to the very things that keep their cities afloat and their magical items empowered.
Nah. As I said "lesser" doesn't mean insignificant. It just happened that their contributions to the empire weren't as great as Karsus's or any of the major enclaves'. Besides I recall NO source book nor novel EXPLICITLY stating some of the enclaves---especially the unnamed ones---were utterly insignificant. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Jun 2011 : 04:21:34
Obviously, not all enclaves had such noteworthy contributions. This is further proof of insignificance. How much more do you need?
Oh, and this quote? Pretty much says that some enclaves weren't all that important.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Possible, but I'd say only to the "lesser" enclaves. Phaerimm "corruption" of the mythallars of the enclaves like Karsus's, Ioulaum's, Larloch's, Shade, and Delia without attracting the attention of their respective archwizards is highly unlikely. The archwizards (at least the ones at the top of the hierarchy) were strongly attuned to their mythallars it's almost absurd to think they wouldn't notice anything amiss to the very things that keep their cities afloat and their magical items empowered.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Jun 2011 : 02:37:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, with at least 54 enclaves, it's pretty reasonable to assume that the majority of them were insignificant. I can't see every single one having some siginificance, given that number. Besides, we know that some enclaves were more significant than others, just from what it said in their write-ups. [snip]
Again, people get jaded by the familiar. A Netherese enclave would have had to really stand out to be something more than just another enclave... And it's just not logical to assume that they all stood out.
Just because one enclave was more significant than the others didn't mean those "others" were insignificant. If one compares Karsus's Enclave and Spiel, he would most likely proclaim the former as the more significant one. Karsus's presence and name alone were more than enough to justify that. But would such comparison render the latter insignificant? I'd say no. Netheril: Empire of Magic clearly mentioned the "contributions" of Spiel to Netheril. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Jun 2011 : 06:00:52
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
But let's say you magically manage to have all your copies updated, and there is an institution which keeps this masterlist updated even after an individual historian's death. Still, what's the purpose of such a list? Why would anyone have ever written it?
The same reason why a historian would bother record history.
I think the intent behind his question is a little different than how it came across... Say you are a chronicler of some sort living in Netheril. You will of course record all sorts of info about major enclaves such as Karsus or Shade, where there is a lot of stuff happening. But if Frehd the Arcanist raises an enclave called Frehdville, and then does absolutely nothing of any significance after that, how much effort are you going to spend paying attention to it and detailing it?
I've lived in areas where I lived in one town, passed thru a second en route to school or work, and then attended school or worked in a third town. And I never paid any attention to those towns I was passing thru... In fact, with one of the towns in question, I'd been working there for a while before I realized it was a separate town, and not just a geographical reference! I honestly thought West Melbourne was just another way of referring to a specific part of Melbourne -- I had no idea that West Melbourne was its own dedicated city (and it is, oddly, south of Melbourne, not west of it!). And there's another town in the area that's so small it's something of a joke to talk about it... If I was writing a chronicle about the Melbourne area, I'd lump West Melbourne into that and ignore Holopaw altogether. It's simple human nature to disregard that which is perceived as insignificant.
And how certain are you that there's even one single enclave that was insignificant? That description is highly relative. What one historian may perceive significant is insignificant for another. If the criteria alone for "significance" is magic, then all of the enclaves would have passed. Raising an enclave and keeping it afloat required a large amount of magic.
Well, with at least 54 enclaves, it's pretty reasonable to assume that the majority of them were insignificant. I can't see every single one having some siginificance, given that number. Besides, we know that some enclaves were more significant than others, just from what it said in their write-ups.
You mention that "Raising an enclave and keeping it afloat required a large amount of magic." And that's certainly true. But after a dozen or so, people get jaded to that kind of thing... I live on the Space Coast. I've seen literally scores of shuttle launches, maybe 70 of them, if not more. I try never to miss one... But to a lot of people in this area, it's like "Oh, another shuttle launch? Didn't they just launch one?" We become jaded by the familiarity of it all... We see a lot of rocket launches, too, but those are barely worth noting, compared to a shuttle launch. The Apollo missions also launched from the Cape. From a place less than an hour's drive away, we sent people to the moon -- and there are people living here that can't tell you which Apollo mission was the first to put men on the moon.
Again, people get jaded by the familiar. A Netherese enclave would have had to really stand out to be something more than just another enclave... And it's just not logical to assume that they all stood out. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Jun 2011 : 02:51:15
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
But let's say you magically manage to have all your copies updated, and there is an institution which keeps this masterlist updated even after an individual historian's death. Still, what's the purpose of such a list? Why would anyone have ever written it?
The same reason why a historian would bother record history.
I think the intent behind his question is a little different than how it came across... Say you are a chronicler of some sort living in Netheril. You will of course record all sorts of info about major enclaves such as Karsus or Shade, where there is a lot of stuff happening. But if Frehd the Arcanist raises an enclave called Frehdville, and then does absolutely nothing of any significance after that, how much effort are you going to spend paying attention to it and detailing it?
I've lived in areas where I lived in one town, passed thru a second en route to school or work, and then attended school or worked in a third town. And I never paid any attention to those towns I was passing thru... In fact, with one of the towns in question, I'd been working there for a while before I realized it was a separate town, and not just a geographical reference! I honestly thought West Melbourne was just another way of referring to a specific part of Melbourne -- I had no idea that West Melbourne was its own dedicated city (and it is, oddly, south of Melbourne, not west of it!). And there's another town in the area that's so small it's something of a joke to talk about it... If I was writing a chronicle about the Melbourne area, I'd lump West Melbourne into that and ignore Holopaw altogether. It's simple human nature to disregard that which is perceived as insignificant.
And how certain are you that there's even one single enclave that was insignificant? That description is highly relative. What one historian may perceive significant is insignificant for another. If the criteria alone for "significance" is magic, then all of the enclaves would have passed. Raising an enclave and keeping it afloat required a large amount of magic. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 17:44:55
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
You're back to your RW comparison, again. Toril is not Earth, no matter how much seemingly similar they appear.
Who's to say those tomes do/did not exist? Just because it wasn't mentioned in any sources doesn't mean no archwizard, priest, common scribe, or practically anyone bothered to create such records for the preservation of Netheril's culture. They were an advanced civilization in so many ways, and a highly magical society at that. No one might have foreseen its fall, but surely someone must have found it quite a worthwhile endeavor to record their present (which would be the future's past) so their descendants would understand their old ways. And they were wise enough to ensure that such records would be made in multiple copies, and scattered all across Toril. The more annals there are, the more difficult it would be for anyone to hunt them, either for the purpose of destroying the records, or hoarding and keeping those to themselves.
-You can say that real world comparisons don't work all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the process would be the same. Faerūnian scholars researching Netheril would not suddenly learn everything about it, with one perusal of an ancient tome, or one archeological dig site. It is a process. I'm sure plenty of Netherese recorded lots of information about their culture. And, of course, Netherese survivor states, and actual Netherese survivors have their own information and stories to tell. Do we have a complete picture, however? Odds are, no, given that our main source of information comes from Netheril: Empire of Magic, penned by whomever (likely a Red Mage, some kind of scribe to Szass Tam), based on what Larloch had to say on the matter. Might we maybe someday get one? Possibly. |
| Thieran |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 17:18:22
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The same reason why a historian would bother record history.
Which is? And before you reply, just to avoid discussing in circles, I would recommend reading my previous post again... It might anticipate some of your arguments.
To sum it up:
It's my opinion that compiling an exhaustive list of settlements a) does not come naturally to a scribe or historian (it is something very modern-RW-inspired) and b) is not typically Netherese either.
That's why I think you would have to come up with a very specific reason why it was ever written, which could lead to an interesting campaign. I think it is very implausible to assume that such a list would exist without a special reason for its existence - simply saying that that's what Netherese historians/scribes do is, I think, not enough, because nothing I have read about the Netherese points into that direction. IMO, it's a modern-RW-inspired concept which would need justification for inclusion in Toril. And that justification might serve as a plot hook. |
| shandiris |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 17:17:29
The RW analogy also points in the other way.
Say you're a current historian.
Do you write down where every nuke is, how many nukes everybody has, and who has what type? And we suddenly cease using nuclear power/weapons. Now skip 1700 years forward. Tada, we have our current situation in Faerun.
PS: I also would like more info on the enclaves but alas..
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 17:11:06
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
But let's say you magically manage to have all your copies updated, and there is an institution which keeps this masterlist updated even after an individual historian's death. Still, what's the purpose of such a list? Why would anyone have ever written it?
The same reason why a historian would bother record history.
I think the intent behind his question is a little different than how it came across... Say you are a chronicler of some sort living in Netheril. You will of course record all sorts of info about major enclaves such as Karsus or Shade, where there is a lot of stuff happening. But if Frehd the Arcanist raises an enclave called Frehdville, and then does absolutely nothing of any significance after that, how much effort are you going to spend paying attention to it and detailing it?
I've lived in areas where I lived in one town, passed thru a second en route to school or work, and then attended school or worked in a third town. And I never paid any attention to those towns I was passing thru... In fact, with one of the towns in question, I'd been working there for a while before I realized it was a separate town, and not just a geographical reference! I honestly thought West Melbourne was just another way of referring to a specific part of Melbourne -- I had no idea that West Melbourne was its own dedicated city (and it is, oddly, south of Melbourne, not west of it!). And there's another town in the area that's so small it's something of a joke to talk about it... If I was writing a chronicle about the Melbourne area, I'd lump West Melbourne into that and ignore Holopaw altogether. It's simple human nature to disregard that which is perceived as insignificant. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 16:50:35
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
But let's say you magically manage to have all your copies updated, and there is an institution which keeps this masterlist updated even after an individual historian's death. Still, what's the purpose of such a list? Why would anyone have ever written it?
The same reason why a historian would bother record history. |
| Thieran |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 16:10:23
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
[...] And the descriptions must have included the full list of the enclaves raised at the time the books were written.[...]
"Must have"? Why? Recording an empire's history in no way necessitates compiling full lists of things - that's what I meant. If, as a historian, you intend to describe Netheril and its glories, pity you if the only way you can achieve this is by compiling a complete, soon-out-of-date list of its enclaves to do it.
Thinking that compiling full lists comes natural/obvious to a historian is something which I deem to be RW-inspired, by the way. If you want a concept of history that does *not* look like being inspired from later 20th century Earth, then I would recommend one that is *not* based on "hard facts", numbers, lists etc. and does not try to offer "complete" information.
But hey, it's your Realms - I wouldn't deem it completely implausible, just very.
And it's not about the capability of the Netherese to compile such a list, it's about the function/purpose/sense of such an endeavour. Put yourself in the shoes of a Netherese historian: which purpose could such an exhaustive catalogue have had? Especially one that would be obsolete in the following year or decade. You could of course always have your copy updated, even by your successors or whatever - but what about the copies which you, in a previous post, imagined being spread over all of Faerƻn? But let's say you magically manage to have all your copies updated, and there is an institution which keeps this masterlist updated even after an individual historian's death. Still, what's the purpose of such a list? Why would anyone have ever written it? Now we are talking about an interesting campaign hook! As a unique project with a highly specific intention behind it, I imagine that it could provide many possibilities for an interesting adventure.
P.S.:
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Call it wishful thinking if you want. I hardly care.
Alright, alright, sorry mate. Apologies if that sounded personal. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 15:38:10
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
Books describing Netheril as it was at the time when they were written - alright. But why would such books contain information in a way that suits DMs interested in Realmslore? "Full lists" of all settlements with descriptions? That sounds more like an attempt to rationalise wishful thinking.
"Books describing Netheril as it was at the time when they were written"---that's partly what I meant. And the descriptions must have included the full list of the enclaves raised at the time the books were written. Call it wishful thinking if you want. I hardly care. I simply deem it as a possibility based on what the Netherese were capable of. Not all of them were wizards. Some were scholars (and of course some were both) who must have found it a worthwhile task to record their history. |
| Thieran |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 12:43:08
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
[...] but surely someone must have found it quite a worthwhile endeavor to record their present (which would be the future's past) so their descendants would understand their old ways. And they were wise enough to ensure that such records would be made in multiple copies, and scattered all across Toril. [...]
"Surely"? Why? I must say I find this scenario not particularly plausible - why would such a record contain each and every single enclave? Books describing Netheril as it was at the time when they were written - alright. But why would such books contain information in a way that suits DMs interested in Realmslore? "Full lists" of all settlements with descriptions? That sounds more like an attempt to rationalise wishful thinking. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 03:04:03
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And that's one of the reasons I (as much as possible) avoid RW comparisons. There are several ways knowledge can be preserved in Toril. It is awash with magic, something we do not have, something that leads to endless possibilities. A three-foot tome detailing Netheril's History (including a full list of the enclaves), preserved by magic against decomposition and fire, protected against perusal by anyone save Netheril's anscestors, could have been written by the archwizards' scribes and hidden in caves, graveyards, whatever, somewhere far from Netheril. There's much they could have done, having magic at their disposal, to preserve the knowledge of their culture.
-But, such a thing does not exist. Or, it has not been discovered yet, and, until it is discovered, we're still at square one. Did archeologists researching Ancient Egypt during the boom of research there in the early 1900s learn everything about it, and discover all of her hidden secrets all at once? Of course not. It's a process.
You're back to your RW comparison, again. Toril is not Earth, no matter how much seemingly similar they appear.
Who's to say those tomes do/did not exist? Just because it wasn't mentioned in any sources doesn't mean no archwizard, priest, common scribe, or practically anyone bothered to create such records for the preservation of Netheril's culture. They were an advanced civilization in so many ways, and a highly magical society at that. No one might have foreseen its fall, but surely someone must have found it quite a worthwhile endeavor to record their present (which would be the future's past) so their descendants would understand their old ways. And they were wise enough to ensure that such records would be made in multiple copies, and scattered all across Toril. The more annals there are, the more difficult it would be for anyone to hunt them, either for the purpose of destroying the records, or hoarding and keeping those to themselves. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 18:11:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Or all he considered important. I could name every city in my geographical area, but if I was asked to name just the important/major ones, it's a much smaller list.
-Agreed, that too.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I like to know about Netheril and other fallen kingdoms, it doesn't bother me that potentially hundreds of enclaves remain unnamed. More room to play, and also, with most of them being rubble now, it's just not all that important. There's a lot more modern (1370ish) stuff I'd like to see detailed, as opposed to a list of cities destroyed 1700 years ago.
-Eh, I agree and disagree with that. I, too, don't have a problem if Low Netherese settlements aren't given names, locations, or details, because they're relatively unimportant. I don't care if we have a bunch of minor Enclaves that aren't listed, because they're relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of what Netheril was- a small Enclave raised by a generic Arcanist that had room for only he and his family, for example. But, I don't like knowing relatively nothing about some of the other Enclaves that existed, that we know were important for various reasons (who created them, special features, important things happened there, etc.).
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And that's one of the reasons I (as much as possible) avoid RW comparisons. There are several ways knowledge can be preserved in Toril. It is awash with magic, something we do not have, something that leads to endless possibilities. A three-foot tome detailing Netheril's History (including a full list of the enclaves), preserved by magic against decomposition and fire, protected against perusal by anyone save Netheril's anscestors, could have been written by the archwizards' scribes and hidden in caves, graveyards, whatever, somewhere far from Netheril. There's much they could have done, having magic at their disposal, to preserve the knowledge of their culture.
-But, such a thing does not exist. Or, it has not been discovered yet, and, until it is discovered, we're still at square one. Did archeologists researching Ancient Egypt during the boom of research there in the early 1900s learn everything about it, and discover all of her hidden secrets all at once? Of course not. It's a process. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 16:13:39
quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Establishing an exact number of enclaves would be limiting, I remember there were 13 at one time (age of discovery?)
"At its height, High Netheril boasted fifty-four floating cities," from Lost Empires of Faerūn p.108
Which does not preclude others being lofted after High Netheril reached its height... |
| Asharak |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 15:57:23
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Establishing an exact number of enclaves would be limiting, I remember there were 13 at one time (age of discovery?)
"At its height, High Netheril boasted fifty-four floating cities," from Lost Empires of Faerūn p.108 |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 05:01:20
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That it no longer exists (as opposed to Waterdeep) does not really matter. There should have been historical records prior to the Fall that survived, or a few surviving denizens should have recalled and recorded some important accounts, like the full list, coupled with brief, if not extensive descriptions of all the enclaves.
-Of course it matters. Can you apply what you just said to our own past civilizations, pertaining to the records part? If we went into the depths of archeological excavation in Rome, what are the odds we going to find anywhere a record book or groups of books that list every single Ancient Roman settlement that existed up until whenever the ledger was written? Regarding survivors who are still alive, they need to be "asked". Larloch was "asked", and we have his account on things. Perhaps all he wished to share, he shared, but perhaps all he knew or remembered, he shared.
And that's one of the reasons I (as much as possible) avoid RW comparisons. There are several ways knowledge can be preserved in Toril. It is awash with magic, something we do not have, something that leads to endless possibilities. A three-foot tome detailing Netheril's History (including a full list of the enclaves), preserved by magic against decomposition and fire, protected against perusal by anyone save Netheril's anscestors, could have been written by the archwizards' scribes and hidden in caves, graveyards, whatever, somewhere far from Netheril. There's much they could have done, having magic at their disposal, to preserve the knowledge of their culture. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 17:52:00
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That it no longer exists (as opposed to Waterdeep) does not really matter. There should have been historical records prior to the Fall that survived, or a few surviving denizens should have recalled and recorded some important accounts, like the full list, coupled with brief, if not extensive descriptions of all the enclaves.
-Of course it matters. Can you apply what you just said to our own past civilizations, pertaining to the records part? If we went into the depths of archeological excavation in Rome, what are the odds we going to find anywhere a record book or groups of books that list every single Ancient Roman settlement that existed up until whenever the ledger was written? Regarding survivors who are still alive, they need to be "asked". Larloch was "asked", and we have his account on things. Perhaps all he wished to share, he shared, but perhaps all he knew or remembered, he shared.
Or all he considered important. I could name every city in my geographical area, but if I was asked to name just the important/major ones, it's a much smaller list.
As much as I like to know about Netheril and other fallen kingdoms, it doesn't bother me that potentially hundreds of enclaves remain unnamed. More room to play, and also, with most of them being rubble now, it's just not all that important. There's a lot more modern (1370ish) stuff I'd like to see detailed, as opposed to a list of cities destroyed 1700 years ago. |
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