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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 18:39:07
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I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast. Any ideas how the events from the book of Apocalypse could be worked into a campaign. I guess he is one of the ''heads''.
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z455t |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 18:45:32
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| Yes, the original one. |
z455t |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 19:05:37
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| I am not trying to push my belief system here, but I suggest that you just read the book of Revelation. When I want to look up a verse on the web, I go to biblestudytools.com. They have several different translations available. I suggest the NAS (New American Standard) or NKJV (New King James Version) as they are widely regarded as the most accurate translations. Once again, not trying to push my beliefs, but if you want to know something, go to the source of it. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 19:26:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast.
That's news to me... |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 19:29:51
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| Well, I guess you would be throwing Bane up against the Triad to get your concept more or less on (Tyr-God, Ilmater-Jesus, Torm-Holy Spirit). So that makes Fzoul or Cyric the Antichrist. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 19:43:12
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Should I be worried that a lot of my own Planer/Deific musings are coming true in 4e?
I really wish 4e fluff were... ummmm... no delicate way to put it; BETTER. I actually agree with a lot of the cosmological changes they have made, and can even get behind the rules, but the lore is so lack-luster it still gives me pause.
And there is subtle difference between 'lackluster' and 'bad'. I'm not saying 4e lore is bad - I happen to like a decent percentage of it - its just not presented in a very appetizing way.
So to steer myself back on-topic, I like this new development (unless Kno is referring to some older dragon I am not aware of). It shoe-horns nicely into my own 'Elder god' concepts (and Ed's 'Watching Gods').
On the other hand, it pulls Malar further away from the 'huntsman' aspect, and I would wager both are primordial (ancient) powers representing primal concepts, and would probably be ancient enemies as well (The beast vs 'The Hunter'). The big problem with THAT, in regards to FR, is that we have established in Realms canon that Malar represents the Hunting aspect, and has 'normal' human followers (one of the main characters in the Death of the Dragon novel was a high-Priest of Malar, and affiliated with The Crown).
But then, Malar subsumed Herne (the Hunter) in Realmspace, so that could explain the discrepancy (although I don't really think that battle in the Evermeet novel took place in Realmspace; it would make little sense in regards to Lolth having witnessed it).
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Well, I guess you would be throwing Bane up against the Triad to get your concept more or less on (Tyr-God, Ilmater-Jesus, Torm-Holy Spirit). So that makes Fzoul or Cyric the Antichrist.
So who is Gog, aside from some Elder Evil dwelling in his own domain of Magog?
EDIT: A bit more on-topic; you may find useful bits in The Apocalypse Stone. Although I've never read it myself, the basic premise (the end of the world) may give you some ideas. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Apr 2011 19:51:38 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 01:37:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast.
In which issue did you read this in, because it's not something that's ringing any memory-bells for me? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 02:04:48
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quote:
The Sage
quote:
Kno
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast.
In which issue did you read this in, because it's not something that's ringing any memory-bells for me?
Is "the Beast" Kazgoroth? I've never been clear whether he's Malar, Bhaal, Bane, Talos or some other deity (possibly even a collective or composite one involving them all). (I view the Moonshae Earth Goddess are a collective goddess formed mostly of Chauntea, Silvanus, Selūne, Mielikki, and Mystra. A not-uncommon occurrence in pagan-derived faiths.) |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 04:32:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
The Sage
quote:
Kno
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast.
In which issue did you read this in, because it's not something that's ringing any memory-bells for me?
Is "the Beast" Kazgoroth? I've never been clear whether he's Malar, Bhaal, Bane, Talos or some other deity (possibly even a collective or composite one involving them all). (I view the Moonshae Earth Goddess are a collective goddess formed mostly of Chauntea, Silvanus, Selūne, Mielikki, and Mystra. A not-uncommon occurrence in pagan-derived faiths.)
I've always assumed that that Kazzie is some near-divine minion of Malar.
As for the Earthmother, I believe it's been explained that she was an aspect of Chauntea that was split off long ago, and recently (per 3E) reabsorbed back into Chauntea. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 05:05:08
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Earthmother was a completely separate deity from that of Chauntea, that is, until TSR cast a "mighty retcon" upon the six 'Moonshae' novels.
You have to take this into consideration, otherwise parts of the plot from the novels doesn't make as much sense without it -- mostly because Earthmother dies and Chauntea then assumes her position until Earthmother returns and forces Chauntea out from the druids that focused instead on Chauntea worship.
I'll note also that Brian James was never actually happy with that retcon, which is why he didn't acknowledge it in his "Moonshae" article. In fact, he hinted pretty strongly that Earthmother may indeed be a fey goddess.
By not acknowledging the retcon, Brian seems to have re-established the singular Earthmother as a divine entity unto herself with regard to the Moonshaes.
Perhaps this fey Earthmother is merely "a partial aspect of the Land" [the Moonshaes] with respect to Chauntea's overall placement as THE land overall. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 09:36:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast.
In which issue did you read this in, because it's not something that's ringing any memory-bells for me?
#54, does not actually say that Malar is among them, but the title of Beastlord implies. quote:
''The collective title Cults of the Beast arises out of the ancient belief that all such doctrines are merely splinters of an old, decadent and forbidden religion which rejoiced in a return to the bestial (evil) side of mans nature, worshipping The Beast. The belief is more instinc-tive than remembered now, but the name has stuck.
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z455t |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 09:49:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Well, I guess you would be throwing Bane up against the Triad to get your concept more or less on (Tyr-God, Ilmater-Jesus, Torm-Holy Spirit). So that makes Fzoul or Cyric the Antichrist.
The Triad and Cyric are good, what if Amaunator takes Tyr's place.
I don't know who to pick for the Horsemen of Hunger. |
z455t |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 10:55:29
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I think I'll lower the stats of gods to be on the level with the stats of archfiends from Fiendish Codexes, Asmodeus is CR 27.
The trumpet archons that sound horns to break the seven seals would be just right.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So who is Gog, aside from some Elder Evil dwelling in his own domain of Magog?
Magog is a magocracy, Thay or corrupted Halruaa from Peleveran. |
z455t |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 11:17:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast.
In which issue did you read this in, because it's not something that's ringing any memory-bells for me?
#54, does not actually say that Malar is among them, but the title of Beastlord implies. quote:
''The collective title Cults of the Beast arises out of the ancient belief that all such doctrines are merely splinters of an old, decadent and forbidden religion which rejoiced in a return to the bestial (evil) side of mans nature, worshipping The Beast. The belief is more instinc-tive than remembered now, but the name has stuck.
"The Beast" is a pretty generic phrase. I don't see the implication that Malar has anything to do with Christianity. |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 11:50:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast.
In which issue did you read this in, because it's not something that's ringing any memory-bells for me?
#54, does not actually say that Malar is among them, but the title of Beastlord implies. quote:
''The collective title Cults of the Beast arises out of the ancient belief that all such doctrines are merely splinters of an old, decadent and forbidden religion which rejoiced in a return to the bestial (evil) side of mans nature, worshipping The Beast. The belief is more instinc-tive than remembered now, but the name has stuck.
"The Beast" is a pretty generic phrase. I don't see the implication that Malar has anything to do with Christianity.
You have convinced me
I give up |
z455t |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 15:37:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I've seen in Dragon that Malar is part of a greater entity the Beast.
In which issue did you read this in, because it's not something that's ringing any memory-bells for me?
#54, does not actually say that Malar is among them, but the title of Beastlord implies. quote:
''The collective title Cults of the Beast arises out of the ancient belief that all such doctrines are merely splinters of an old, decadent and forbidden religion which rejoiced in a return to the bestial (evil) side of mans nature, worshipping The Beast. The belief is more instinc-tive than remembered now, but the name has stuck.
"The Beast" is a pretty generic phrase. I don't see the implication that Malar has anything to do with Christianity.
That's my thinking as well. Ed's work-up would seem to play upon the bestial aspect in mortals... than any truly divine component. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 17:10:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
You have convinced me
I give up
I'm just saying that I don't see a connection there. Your idea could still work; just tweak it to make the Christian elements workable in the Realms.
Unfortunately, I'm nothing approaching knowledgable about the Bible, so I can't offer any assistance on the conversion.
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 20:39:09
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I don't see this concept as a lost cause, though the link to may be. From a campaign standpoint, I would do this (with a couple of canon twists).
Create triad of Lathander (Jesus), Tyr (God), and Mystra (Holy Spirit).
Have the rise of Amauntor worship taking place, with whoever the guy was in Power of Faerun who the worship envogue. He's actually your anti-christ. Daegeloth (sp?). Amauntor is, in fact, just a mask of Cyric used to divert worship away Lathander. Cyric got the idea from ... the ultimate beast ... Moander. It's a good match, because Moander is great at taking the long view, isn't a fan of Lathander, and Cyric is the god of "getting screwed in the end" and "coming up with worse plans than Bane."
Daegeloth should then also have the support of four men - chose of their gods (who are actually chosen of Cyric).
The Minister of Unity - Heads up an order of priests who are dedicated to routing out corruption within the fold. Essentially the head of an inquisitorial wing of Amaunator's church. He also commissions investigations into the dogmas and litanys of other faiths seeking to bring all worshippers of the "good" gods into one group.
The Minister of Peace - A Paladin of Tyr who protects the faithful with an order of templar knights who have all sworn vows of poverty.
The Minister of Renewal - A druid who heads up the arm of the church dedicated solely to the service of the poor. Not even an evangelical group at all, they grow crops and raise animals for sacrifice and distribution to the masses, be they worshippers or not.
The Minister of Life - A Cleric who tends to the sick, injured, and dying. Like the Minister of Renewal, his wing does not discriminate between believer and unbeliever. They provide healing and solace to anyone that comes their way.
And now you have the Four Horsemen. :)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 20:50:12
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If you say that 'the beast' is one aspect of Asmodeus (after all, his name is Legion  ) - 'the serpent' is another (that is discussed in the final, real issue of Dragon) - then you may be able to translate several evil deities into aspects of 'the beast', Malar just being one of them (Kazgoroth could be one, Kezef another).
In fact, if you want to throw-in the 'Elf-eater', you could theorize that Asmodeus created one aspect for each major mortal race (I won't even theorize about those - you guys figure it out). Unfortunately, I do not easily make a connection between 'the beast' and Asmodeus. in fact, I would say that 'the serpent' is the preferred vehicle for Asmodeus/Lawful Evil. Does Asmodeus have a demonic counterpart? (my lack of Planescape/fiend knowledge is showing here). Could it be 'The Abyss' itself?
Perhaps Asmodeus is 'the serpent', and something else is 'the beast', and although both have dozens of aspects themselves, they are both merely aspects of something even greater (PURE evil?) Maybe that is Ahriman.... who knows?
Anyhow, although I have included many aspects of the Judaeo-Christian mythos in my over-Cosmology, I think that the details of the Bible are also world-specific. Each Sphere/Solar System has its own set of rules, and pre-determined prophesies/fate, and the way things are supposed to work in the end-of-days for Earth isn't necessarily the same as what it would be in The Realms. Even ancient, 'Elder Evils' and 'Watching Gods' can't be everywhere at once (that would be self-defeating), so they pick-&-choose their battlegrounds and objectives on a world-by-world basis.
As an aside, I have begun to postulate beyond my proto-cosmology and into the elusive region of 'Armegeddon'. I think every world has one of these coming to it. What I think is going on (in D&D, not RW) is that all the worlds were once one - they are all just echoes of that 'True World' that once existed. With the 'death' of each sphere (the 'Apocalypse') the energies contained therein are released and re-absorbed by the remaining worlds.
And in the end, there can be only one.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Apr 2011 20:52:15 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 05:21:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Does Asmodeus have a demonic counterpart? (my lack of Planescape/fiend knowledge is showing here). Could it be 'The Abyss' itself?
-Lord of the Abyss, who is stronger than all other Demons enough that he/she can subjugate them (to the degree that Asmodeus actually 'subjugates' the eight other Lords of Hell)? Nope. That'd be way too lawful for such a chaotic place. There definitley are Demon Lords who are stronger than other Demon Lords, but when you literally have an infinite number of powerful Demon Lords (and occasional deities) ruling over their own layers, the field becomes too crowded to pick with any certainty one over everyone else. I guess you could say that, of all the ones we know about, Demogorgon is the most powerful, but he has strong competition with Orcus, Graz'zt, and Ob-ox-Ob. Miska the Wolf-Spider was another super powerful one but she's dead. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
502 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 15:23:07
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| Speaking of 'Elder Evils', I'd suggested checking out the sourcebook of that very title, Kno, for at least giving signs for such an apocalyptic event coming. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 17:33:52
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| There was speculation that just as there are two serpents of law, Merrshaulk and an unnamed CG one are their opposites. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 18:16:48
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Bahamut really needs to be chaotic good for everything to work out. LG isn't really the opposite of LE (Tiamet).
Which two lawful powers were you referring to, Quale? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 13:27:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Bahamut really needs to be chaotic good for everything to work out. LG isn't really the opposite of LE (Tiamet).
Which two lawful powers were you referring to, Quale?
The ones from Guide to Hell, Ahriman and Jazirian. Possibility is that Merrshaulk is a projection of sleeping being, similar to Ahriman and Asmodeus.
Bahamut and Tiamat were poorly designed, I don't know where they got their sources.
Also Baphomet is one of the most obvious choices for the Beast.
However I don't see how could the thousand-year kingdom from the Revelation work in a campaign. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 18:03:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
However I don't see how could the thousand-year kingdom from the Revelation work in a campaign.
Perhaps, guided by a prophecy similar to the book of Revelations, some major baddie is trying to forge his empire that will last for 1000 years or longer... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 19:42:42
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| Szass Tam, working with/for Bane? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 19:51:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Szass Tam, working with/for Bane?
I'd go for someone else. Using Szass Tam is a bit cliched, to me. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 15:55:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
However I don't see how could the thousand-year kingdom from the Revelation work in a campaign.
Perhaps, guided by a prophecy similar to the book of Revelations, some major baddie is trying to forge his empire that will last for 1000 years or longer...
I vaguely remember the book, first there is a series of disasters, then a thousand year kingdom while the devil is locked away, then the second apocalypse. It would be difficult to have that long campaign.
I'd make this less religious and in the past, a historical allegory for the Roman-Jewish conflict, where possibly Jhaamdath takes the place of Romans, or involve the Dawn Cataclysm. |
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The Apocalypse Scenario
