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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 05:29:58
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Yep...who do you think would win?
Me...Bahamut hands down...
This isn't a poll...I have PROOF that Bahamut is the badder-arsed of the two:
Page 43 of the Dungeon Master's Guide (1e) under the "Gate" spell says:
quote:
...Asmodeus summoned to pit himself against Bahamut would be very likely to turn and do a speedy exit...
Now, it doesn't say that he couldn't beat Bahamut, but it does say he would retreat quickly...
What do you guys think?
Myself, I see this as evidence of how far away from the original incarnation of the game that Dungeons and Dragons has come. Things have changed so drastically, that the positions of primary "Big Guns" has completly changed...today Bahamut would be completely tread upon by Asmodeus.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 05:43:08
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| I don't see Bahamut being foolish enough to invest all his power on an attack in Hell. Nor do I see Asmodeus being foolish enough to move all of his power away from Hell. Any other battleground would be inconclusive because Asmodeus would remain undefeated (ie: banished perhaps, but not killed in his domain). Plus every baatezu in the cosmos ultimately serves Asmodeus (at least in theory). There's also a good chance that Tiamat would become involved in this particular battle, and she certainly won't side with Bahamut. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 05:58:58
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-Gotta say, Asmodeus.
-Bahamut, he's a cool deity, but that's all he is. A generic deity, in some cases, the leader of the Draconic Pantheon, or, at least, a very powerful member of the Draconic Pantheon, who often has worship bleeds over into other races. Asmodeus, he's the Lord of the Nine Hells. You don't mess with that. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 06:44:25
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Ahhhh...but that is the truth only in later editions.
In 1e Asmodeus doesn't actually rule all the Nine Hells directly as other Gods have domains there...and Bahamut is more powerful.
I guess I was trying to be somewhat sly...and show how different things are now than before.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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AleksanderTheGreat
Seeker
90 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 08:21:16
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Newer lore trumps older. If you want to compare Asmodeus and Bahamut from older editions then say so, because otherwise you're just confusing people.
By present lore (4th edition) Asmodeus is a deity on top of being the ruler of 9 Hells. It's clear that he's the winner.
In 3.X edition he's not a deity but he's still very powerful, probably more powerful then the gods, but his TRUE body is in... stasis? He's too weakened to posses his full power and the recovery will be long. Still, even his aspect is probably a good challenge for any god, although maybe not outside of Hell. |
Fighting for order! - Join me in the battle! |
Edited by - AleksanderTheGreat on 02 Apr 2011 08:22:58 |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 14:36:17
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| Asmodeus... |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 17:15:31
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quote:
Originally posted by AleksanderTheGreat
Newer lore trumps older. If you want to compare Asmodeus and Bahamut from older editions then say so, because otherwise you're just confusing people.
By present lore (4th edition) Asmodeus is a deity on top of being the ruler of 9 Hells. It's clear that he's the winner.
In 3.X edition he's not a deity but he's still very powerful, probably more powerful then the gods, but his TRUE body is in... stasis? He's too weakened to posses his full power and the recovery will be long. Still, even his aspect is probably a good challenge for any god, although maybe not outside of Hell.
Seriously...do people read much? I DID state which edition. Sheesh.
EDIT: I even said in the original post that TODAY Bahamut would be totally kicked in the can by Asmodeus. Double sheesh. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 02 Apr 2011 17:16:39 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 17:25:17
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| You did state 1E in your OP, Dalor. That doesn't invalidate my initial observations: Asmodeus is supremely powerful when in the Nine Hells and commands the loyalty of every devil in existence (even Mephistopheles reluctantly bows in service before him), he's no god but he's pretty close in terms of power within his own domain. Bahamut in 1E, too, is no god (he's basically just an überdragon) but he'd have to take the fight to Asmodeus and I'd bet the devils won't fight fair. If you're strictly going 1E then Tiamat (again, not a deity) happens to also reside in the Nine Hells and service Asmodeus. A one-on-one battle would never occur, only an Asmodeus-plus-forces-of-Hell vs foolish draconic intruder. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 17:45:31
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| In 1e a one on one battle COULD happen. Gate was the spell I mentioned, and under its rules, Asmodeus could be put into confrontation against Bahamut on the Prime. Lets be open to all chances eh? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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AleksanderTheGreat
Seeker
90 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 17:48:06
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quote:
Seriously...do people read much? I DID state which edition. Sheesh.
Yes, you DID mention 1E when quoting Gate spells description but you DIDN'T clearly state that you're talking about Asmodeus and Bahamut FROM 1E. Yes, I should figure out what you mean (although I can't read minds over internet) but As Arik said above, you're thinking of Bahamut as of a deity but in 1E he's not a deity, therefore you're still confusing people. |
Fighting for order! - Join me in the battle! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 17:52:40
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quote:
Originally posted by AleksanderTheGreat
quote:
Seriously...do people read much? I DID state which edition. Sheesh.
Yes, you DID mention 1E when quoting Gate spells description but you DIDN'T clearly state that you're talking about Asmodeus and Bahamut FROM 1E. Yes, I should figure out what you mean (although I can't read minds over internet) but As Arik said above, you're thinking of Bahamut as of a deity but in 1E he's not a deity, therefore you're still confusing people.
Perhaps confusing you.
It was rather simply explained, and I even stated that under the rules of TODAY Bahamut would be defeated...I'm not sure how much more simple it could be. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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AleksanderTheGreat
Seeker
90 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 18:08:09
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| Well, excuse me for being dense. |
Fighting for order! - Join me in the battle! |
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Aryalómė
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 19:24:18
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Hardly anyone limes 4e anyway..........
Hmmmmm, probably Asmodeus, but I'm not a fan of the hells anyway. I like the Abyss better. Only because of Incubi d Succubi :D. They are awesome. Love me some incubus. But anway.........I think Asmodeus would win. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 19:29:30
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Anyone familiar with my 'planer musings' knows I consider these two powers Elder Gods (Drękons), so they are in the same league, power-wise (IMO).
I don't think they would fight though, because that sort of thing has had devastating effects on the multiverse in the past (just look at the Spellplague... and those were mere deities).
I read that 1e line as "if a mortal were foolish enough to summon Asmodeus to fight Bahamut for them, he would tilt his head (ever so slightly) in acknowledgment of Bahamut - who would then return the same respectful gesture - then turn and sneer at the meddling mortal, and disappear".
It is not a retreat out of fear, but rather one out of intelligence - neither power has much to gain by such a confrontation, and why allow a mere mortal to dictate such things? These elder powers let lesser beings - like deities - fight their battles for them.
On a power-scale, I would say Asmodeus has Bahamut slightly beat - read the 2e Draconimican. Its obvious 'the rebel' is Bahamut, but I suspect Asgoroth is Asmodeus, and the mythos dictates that Asgoroth is older then 'the rebel'. Although story-wise it seems more likely Asgoroth was Tiamet, it makes more sense if Tiamet was added later (as a consort or child of Asgoroth) - the mythos indicates Asgoroth created Bahamut, and it wouldn't make sense if Tiamet were the mother of Bahamut (they are siblings, IIRC).
Too bad the Moonshae material has a 'good' version of leviathan - Tiamet should be leviathan (as Bahamut is Behemoth).
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Hmmmmm, probably Asmodeus, but I'm not a fan of the hells anyway. I like the Abyss better. Only because of Incubi d Succubi :D. They are awesome.
Succubi (and I suppose Incubi) have become devils in 4e. BTW, I'm pretty sure fiends can take different forms, especially Succubi, so it seems to me that an Incubi is just a Succubi that has taken a male form (and rules be damned - fiends, least of all things, are NOT concerned about 'propriety' in their sexuality).
I simplified my 'Great wheel' (should I call it "the not-so-great Wheel"?) 
I have one plane for each (pre-4e) alignment, so there are three 'hells', with 3 layers each (hence, nine hells). Asmodeus rules the lawful one, Luciphęr (Hades) the neutral one, and Shaitan the Chaotic one. As much as I love most Planescape lore, its way more convoluted then a cosmology need-be for a standard D&D world. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Apr 2011 19:42:22 |
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AleksanderTheGreat
Seeker
90 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 19:44:31
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quote:
Love me some incubus.
You're gay or something? I personally would prefer a succubus. :P
I think of Asmodeus as a primal power that's very high above mere deities, even the greater ones. |
Fighting for order! - Join me in the battle! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 20:40:24
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| You're new here, aren't you? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 21:01:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Too bad the Moonshae material has a 'good' version of leviathan - Tiamet should be leviathan (as Bahamut is Behemoth).
-A leviathan is not necessarily the Leviathan. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 02 Apr 2011 21:02:16 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 21:11:05
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I know... I know... but I have deep-rooted need to rectify lore, not trample it.
I've been playing with ways of combining the two (using Celestia/Gaea as the 'Earthmother' in my over-cosmology), but nothing's really grabbed me so far. I hate 'hokey' explanations.
The Moonshaes leviathan is also a whale, IIRC... that's not so easy to work-in either...
I could make it a fey/Celestial word meaning 'dark child' (levii-Athan), which could go both ways... that has possibilities... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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AleksanderTheGreat
Seeker
90 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 21:13:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You're new here, aren't you?
Yeah. And? |
Fighting for order! - Join me in the battle! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 21:13:53
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| Yeah...I always wondered how Tiamat in DnD came to be a Dragon God...when in Mythology she was a "before the Gods" being of Water... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 22:28:09
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Post-Constantine demonization of all other religions, that's how.
I think Gary Gygax was a friggin' genius, and most of what he created was awesome, but his research skills (or perhaps 'take' on what he was reading) fell short in a few places. Not knocking the guy - he created the hobby we have all grown to love - without him, I doubt there'd be a CK. Considering all the bases he covered, its a wonder more weirdness didn't creep-in early-on.
Even though the 1eDD is STILL one of my all-time favorite resources, it definitely leaves a lot to be desired in regards to accuracy.
quote:
Originally posted by AleksanderTheGreat
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You're new here, aren't you?
Yeah. And?
Nuthin'
Its just that most of us here are aware of Tradwitch's 'leanings'.
Welcome to the CK Forums.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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AleksanderTheGreat
Seeker
90 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 23:26:34
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| Ahhhh... So he IS gay? |
Fighting for order! - Join me in the battle! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 02:00:50
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Aleksander, you're being highly inappropriate. We're not here to discuss the sexual preferences of our fellow scribes. Contribute to the topic at hand in this discussion, or please move along elsewhere.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Apr 2011 02:01:40 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 03:51:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know... I know... but I have deep-rooted need to rectify lore, not trample it.
I've been playing with ways of combining the two (using Celestia/Gaea as the 'Earthmother' in my over-cosmology), but nothing's really grabbed me so far. I hate 'hokey' explanations.
The Moonshaes leviathan is also a whale, IIRC... that's not so easy to work-in either...
I could make it a fey/Celestial word meaning 'dark child' (levii-Athan), which could go both ways... that has possibilities...
-Or, you don't have to complicate things more than they need to be complicated. Muhammad Ali was a famous boxer, and one of the Qajar Shahs of Persia. They have the same name, but the two aren't the same person, obviously. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 04:05:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know... I know... but I have deep-rooted need to rectify lore, not trample it.
I've been playing with ways of combining the two (using Celestia/Gaea as the 'Earthmother' in my over-cosmology), but nothing's really grabbed me so far. I hate 'hokey' explanations.
The Moonshaes leviathan is also a whale, IIRC... that's not so easy to work-in either...
I could make it a fey/Celestial word meaning 'dark child' (levii-Athan), which could go both ways... that has possibilities...
-Or, you don't have to complicate things more than they need to be complicated. Muhammad Ali was a famous boxer, and one of the Qajar Shahs of Persia. They have the same name, but the two aren't the same person, obviously.
Or, to keep it Realms-related, Torm the thief is assuredly not Torm the deity. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Apr 2011 04:06:09 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 04:36:09
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| Hmmm, that might explain why his priests took my gold without granting prayers. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 04:36:42
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I had that same thought the other day. I have two Mexican friends named Jesus...and they SURE aren't THE Jesus.
I think it is cool to have a character named after a Forgotten Realms god...but be TOTALLY not like that God.
More back on topic...
What do you guys think made the game designers to start increasing Asmodeus' power so much? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 05:08:17
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- RESERVED -
For a 1E Asmodeus vs 1E Bahamut throwdown analysis.
I still maintain that Asmodeus would be the victor, supporting argument coming soon. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 05:18:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What do you guys think made the game designers to start increasing Asmodeus' power so much?
-The further development of D&D as an all-encompassing fantasy world enabler "thing" (generic ideas pawned from legend and myth, plus Planescape, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and all of the various emphasis-on-generic-fantasy settings) from its inception to 2e, and then from 2e to 3e, and 3e to 4e. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 05:18:35
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Bahamut's divinity was established earlier (in terms of game edition) and is widely accepted without issue; it was even asserted in 1E (Dragonlance) that Bahamut/Paladine is a god. Asmodeus's divinity is still debated and challenged even today.
To be honest, I'm not sure why Wizbro chose to pump Asmodeus. It obviously involves Bane-hating. It seems they wanted to build an infernal power conflict between the lords of Hell, so they fed Mephistopheles and Asmodeus a few of the extra godlings to underscore and authenticate their big league badness. Perhaps Asmodeus was just seen as an excellent (or expedient) fulcrum piece for 1984E's Orwellian retcon of the cosmos? Perhaps he just fits into the reduced alignment scheme a little better, because today's audience is too easily confused by "Lawful Evil"? I dunno. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Apr 2011 05:21:37 |
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Aryalómė
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 05:42:02
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Hmmmm, I don't really know that much lore on Asmodeus or Bahamut, so my opinion doesn't really count, lol.
I don't think incubi and succubi are the same demon as one whole.
Dloesn't he know Alexander the Great was a same sexin it up? Just sayin....no sneeded. |
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Asmodeus vs. Bahamut
