| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 05:29:58
Yep...who do you think would win?
Me...Bahamut hands down...
This isn't a poll...I have PROOF that Bahamut is the badder-arsed of the two:
Page 43 of the Dungeon Master's Guide (1e) under the "Gate" spell says:
quote:
...Asmodeus summoned to pit himself against Bahamut would be very likely to turn and do a speedy exit...
Now, it doesn't say that he couldn't beat Bahamut, but it does say he would retreat quickly...
What do you guys think?
Myself, I see this as evidence of how far away from the original incarnation of the game that Dungeons and Dragons has come. Things have changed so drastically, that the positions of primary "Big Guns" has completly changed...today Bahamut would be completely tread upon by Asmodeus. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 21:09:00
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
"Gold could not exist without evil"
I thought gold could not exist without silver? 
Sorry, had to have a bit of fun with that typo!  |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 19:39:53
Rubbish!
Good CAN exist without evil...just as evil can exist without Good.
This dual polarity theory is mistaken; but unfortunately very much evident in our gaming materials.
What is more true is that evil would not be seen as evil if everyone was doing it. Just as Good would not be seen as good if there were nothing to compare it against. Cannibals didn't see eating humans as evil...it was RIGHT AND GOOD. Perception and cultural bias determines what many call "good and evil" in the human psyche.
It doesn't mean they can't be; one without the other...in fact I put forward that nothing is either good or evil; just accepted as ok or not accepted. |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 19:27:55
"Gold could not exist without evil"
Well said MT :) I wish people in the RW would realize that. Was Asmodeus always this "tempter of mortals"? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 17:21:59
How about this....
To try and stay on-topic and yet try to pull some of the other stupidity into it: Gods do not have sexes, AT ALL. The ones that were mortal (and for all we know, all the ones we 'know' may have been at some point) may have had a sex, but once they ascend they are beings of pure energy, that can take physical form, if they so choose. They can take whatever form they wish - THAT is official canon (both core and FR).
For that reason, and many, MANY others, the entire concept of 'homosexuality' does NOT exist in the Forgotten Realms, at least not in any negative, RW way. Just like multiple-marriages, each deity and their followers have their own views on the subject, and since The Realms never had a monolithic, monotheistic, 'puritan' religion to tell folks what they should be doing, the liberalness in FR has reached a state undreamed of here in the RW.
"To each his own" is not just something folks say in the Realms, its a code they live by. Individual people may be judgmental, on a variety of subjects, but rarely do specific groups have an 'agenda' in this regard.
There are far too many 'real' threats in the Realms for most folks to worry about who's sleeping with whom. It may be the subject of 'idle court gossip', but the common folk are much too busy with just trying to live to be bothered with such nonsense.
Now, to steer this back...
Asmodeus IS the D&D 'Devil'. However, unlike in our RW, he has his work cut out for him. 'Evil' is all about perception. Something is ONLY evil if your Faith tells you it is (funny that, no?) Since many of the 'sins' we modern humans love to go on about don't exist in The Realms, people are NOT being evil, even when 'sinning' by our RW standards (which simply do NOT exist in The Realms). You judge yourself - that's the naked truth. Some of the most famous ancient religions in the world included human sacrifice, and those folks did not think of themselves as 'evil' (although everyone around them probably did). So Asmodeus can only influence people by tricking them into thinking they have 'fallen' - they themselves must think they are 'beyond redemption'. That's the key to his power - YOU give it to him over you.
Bahamut knows this - he knows how the system works. Asmodeus is part of the mechanics of the universe - he is Darwin at his finest. He separates the chaff from the Wheat. If you believe that Asmodeus is Lucifer (I don't), then you have to consider that it was the Supreme Being that tasked him to tempt mortals, prey on their weaknesses, and punish those who were not worthy.
Its all part of 'the plan'.
Bahamut has nothing against Asmodeus, and Asmodeus has nothing against Bahamut. Although very different in alignment, their agendas normally do not cause them to come into confrontation. If anything, Bahamut might appreciate what Asmodeus does - True 'goodness' must be tested all the time. 'Good' could not exist if there were no 'evil' - there would be no standard to judge it against (and the system would collapse). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 09:32:35
I'm taking this discussion elsewhere, to avoid cluttering this scroll further. All interested scribes should address the issue of "discussing sexuality at Candlekeep" in that scroll instead. Please refrain from replying to this side-discussion here.
Thus, see this scroll:- http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15102 |
| AleksanderTheGreat |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 08:48:57
Some people just forget that this forum is about the Realms and not their personal blogs to be open and have "fun". |
| AleksanderTheGreat |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 08:05:46
Yeah, what he said. Lets just keep our RL lifes out of DnD/FR discussions. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 07:58:00
Hmmm...
You know Sage, I wonder sometimes if our own sexual preferences might color our responses. How often do some drool over THO or voice their heated loins over some female realms character...which openly decrees our sexual preference? Yet, a male saying something about incubi is then too much.
I mean no offense, but it may seem a double standard to those who do not feel that they may freely exhibit their own preferences.
I am not one to usually get involved in such matters honestly, but to moderate is obviously a hard job; so perhaps I should not say one way or another...only that I'm unsure of whether it is fully fair.
I honestly would prefer NO SEXUAL REFERENCE in threads unless those threads deal particularly with sex. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 07:04:23
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
I said my opinion doesn't really count because I don't know a lot about those two deities. I just felt like piping my two cents in.
The point, I believe, that Wooly's trying to make, is that you tend to spend a significant amount of your time here alluding to personal aspects of your life.
We don't mind the odd occasional reference or shared tidbit. No virtual community is immune to such sharing between friends. But you're seemly bringing them up in just about every discussion we've had here at Candlekeep recently.
Such conduct makes applying the dictates of the site's Code of Conduct difficult, because while we have to protect the interests of ALL scribes, we also don't want it to appear as though we're slamming one particular scribe because of what he or she has just shared, personally, about him- or herself.
We tread a very fine line, and your near-constant personal commentary is often complicating our Moderating duties.
So please, if you feel the need to share personal stuff, once or twice here and there is fine. Or use the 'Private Message' system to discuss this kind of stuff with your fellow scribes. But just try to limit such talk in our public discussions.
Thank you.  |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 06:38:39
My real opinion on the matter kinda comes down to: it depends.
I mean, Asmodeus has far stronger magical power (over all...though Bahamut can tailor his spells any way he wants up to 7th level spells) in 1e. Bahamut could bite/claw/claw Asmodeus in one round and breath his disentegration Breath Weapon the next round and game over (even with a save Asmodeus would still be hurting).
Then of course we have Asmodeus which can shoot a "breath weapon" from his Rod of Office...and Asmodeus has hella high Magic Resistance.
I think it would come down to initiative.
Now, starting in 2e on...Asmodeus would have Bahamut's arse in a sling real quick. |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 06:29:16
I said my opinion doesn't really count because I don't know a lot about those two deities. I just felt like piping my two cents in. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 06:21:24
Okay, you know what? Enough. 
A person's sexual preference, or religious beliefs, or political leanings, or anything else personal like that, IS NOT RELEVANT TO THE REALMS. Those topics have been popping up an awful lot of late, and it's not something I want to see continued.
This is a Forgotten Realms forum, so let's keep the various discussions focused on the setting. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 06:19:09
I don't know much about 1e, but the 2e book Guide to Hell portrayed Asmo as one mean motor-scooter. Based on that admittedly limited knowledge, my money is on Big Red. |
| AleksanderTheGreat |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 06:02:41
Markus implied that you're homosexual and I just wanted to confirm this, so I would not offend you with any stupid remarks.
I don't know what does Aleksander The Great or incubi/succubi have to do with this thread. AND if you don't have an opinion on the topic then why are you even posting in it?
See, posts exactly like this above make me think that your not serious at all. |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 05:42:02
Hmmmm, I don't really know that much lore on Asmodeus or Bahamut, so my opinion doesn't really count, lol.
I don't think incubi and succubi are the same demon as one whole.
Dloesn't he know Alexander the Great was a same sexin it up? Just sayin....no sneeded. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 05:18:35
Bahamut's divinity was established earlier (in terms of game edition) and is widely accepted without issue; it was even asserted in 1E (Dragonlance) that Bahamut/Paladine is a god. Asmodeus's divinity is still debated and challenged even today.
To be honest, I'm not sure why Wizbro chose to pump Asmodeus. It obviously involves Bane-hating. It seems they wanted to build an infernal power conflict between the lords of Hell, so they fed Mephistopheles and Asmodeus a few of the extra godlings to underscore and authenticate their big league badness. Perhaps Asmodeus was just seen as an excellent (or expedient) fulcrum piece for 1984E's Orwellian retcon of the cosmos? Perhaps he just fits into the reduced alignment scheme a little better, because today's audience is too easily confused by "Lawful Evil"? I dunno. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 05:18:08
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What do you guys think made the game designers to start increasing Asmodeus' power so much?
-The further development of D&D as an all-encompassing fantasy world enabler "thing" (generic ideas pawned from legend and myth, plus Planescape, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and all of the various emphasis-on-generic-fantasy settings) from its inception to 2e, and then from 2e to 3e, and 3e to 4e. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 05:08:17
- RESERVED -
For a 1E Asmodeus vs 1E Bahamut throwdown analysis.
I still maintain that Asmodeus would be the victor, supporting argument coming soon. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 04:36:42
I had that same thought the other day. I have two Mexican friends named Jesus...and they SURE aren't THE Jesus.
I think it is cool to have a character named after a Forgotten Realms god...but be TOTALLY not like that God.
More back on topic...
What do you guys think made the game designers to start increasing Asmodeus' power so much? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 04:36:09
Hmmm, that might explain why his priests took my gold without granting prayers. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 04:05:55
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know... I know... but I have deep-rooted need to rectify lore, not trample it.
I've been playing with ways of combining the two (using Celestia/Gaea as the 'Earthmother' in my over-cosmology), but nothing's really grabbed me so far. I hate 'hokey' explanations.
The Moonshaes leviathan is also a whale, IIRC... that's not so easy to work-in either...
I could make it a fey/Celestial word meaning 'dark child' (levii-Athan), which could go both ways... that has possibilities...
-Or, you don't have to complicate things more than they need to be complicated. Muhammad Ali was a famous boxer, and one of the Qajar Shahs of Persia. They have the same name, but the two aren't the same person, obviously.
Or, to keep it Realms-related, Torm the thief is assuredly not Torm the deity. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 03:51:06
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know... I know... but I have deep-rooted need to rectify lore, not trample it.
I've been playing with ways of combining the two (using Celestia/Gaea as the 'Earthmother' in my over-cosmology), but nothing's really grabbed me so far. I hate 'hokey' explanations.
The Moonshaes leviathan is also a whale, IIRC... that's not so easy to work-in either...
I could make it a fey/Celestial word meaning 'dark child' (levii-Athan), which could go both ways... that has possibilities...
-Or, you don't have to complicate things more than they need to be complicated. Muhammad Ali was a famous boxer, and one of the Qajar Shahs of Persia. They have the same name, but the two aren't the same person, obviously. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 02:00:50
Aleksander, you're being highly inappropriate. We're not here to discuss the sexual preferences of our fellow scribes. Contribute to the topic at hand in this discussion, or please move along elsewhere.
|
| AleksanderTheGreat |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 23:26:34
Ahhhh... So he IS gay? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 22:28:09
Post-Constantine demonization of all other religions, that's how.
I think Gary Gygax was a friggin' genius, and most of what he created was awesome, but his research skills (or perhaps 'take' on what he was reading) fell short in a few places. Not knocking the guy - he created the hobby we have all grown to love - without him, I doubt there'd be a CK. Considering all the bases he covered, its a wonder more weirdness didn't creep-in early-on.
Even though the 1eDD is STILL one of my all-time favorite resources, it definitely leaves a lot to be desired in regards to accuracy.
quote:
Originally posted by AleksanderTheGreat
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You're new here, aren't you?
Yeah. And?
Nuthin'
Its just that most of us here are aware of Tradwitch's 'leanings'.
Welcome to the CK Forums. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 21:13:53
Yeah...I always wondered how Tiamat in DnD came to be a Dragon God...when in Mythology she was a "before the Gods" being of Water... |
| AleksanderTheGreat |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 21:13:01
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You're new here, aren't you?
Yeah. And? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 21:11:05
I know... I know... but I have deep-rooted need to rectify lore, not trample it.
I've been playing with ways of combining the two (using Celestia/Gaea as the 'Earthmother' in my over-cosmology), but nothing's really grabbed me so far. I hate 'hokey' explanations.
The Moonshaes leviathan is also a whale, IIRC... that's not so easy to work-in either...
I could make it a fey/Celestial word meaning 'dark child' (levii-Athan), which could go both ways... that has possibilities... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 21:01:48
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Too bad the Moonshae material has a 'good' version of leviathan - Tiamet should be leviathan (as Bahamut is Behemoth).
-A leviathan is not necessarily the Leviathan. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 20:40:24
You're new here, aren't you? |
