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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 09:31:21
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This was brought up elsewhere, but given that it's become such a focused topic these days, I felt the need to address it specifically in its own scroll:-
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Hmmm...
You know Sage, I wonder sometimes if our own sexual preferences might color our responses. How often do some drool over THO or voice their heated loins over some female realms character...which openly decrees our sexual preference? Yet, a male saying something about incubi is then too much.
I mean no offense, but it may seem a double standard to those who do not feel that they may freely exhibit their own preferences.
I am not one to usually get involved in such matters honestly, but to moderate is obviously a hard job; so perhaps I should not say one way or another...only that I'm unsure of whether it is fully fair.
I honestly would prefer NO SEXUAL REFERENCE in threads unless those threads deal particularly with sex.
Dalor, you're only referring to stuff that I've already thought about, which is what I was trying to say earlier about both Wooly and I treading a fine line when it comes to these types of issues and the site CoC.
But, at the same time, jokingly lusting after the Lady Hooded One, as some of us tend to do, isn't something we inject into just about every discussion that's popped up recently.
I don't have any problem with personal details being referenced in a discussion, if it helps to carry a point in a Realms discussion across, or if fellow scribes are interested in learning said info. My only issue is having it permeate nearly every new scroll that's coming into these halls. It's not only distracting, but it can eventually severely undermine the CoC.
So, again, I'm NOT saying that gay or non-gay scribes can't express certain personal feelings over aspects of the Realms, or during discussion about Realms elements. But making it a priority for your posting technique in a discussion isn't what Candlekeep is about.
...
Now, I'm going to openly encourage debate on this. But I want all participating scribes to remember that we are all free to discuss how we feel on this issue, and no one -- not even a Moderator -- can tell you whether what you're feeling is right or wrong... so long as it doesn't negatively impact on your fellow scribes.
So, please, THINK before you comment in this discussion.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Apr 2011 09:31:55
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 10:53:59
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I've never really thought it was an issue to be honest. Yea, we joke about these sort of things and there are scrolls about the ideas of being sexually intimate with other races *cough* Halflings *cough*  but I've always felt that was all in good fun. Being of a hetero-sexual preference does give some some rose-colored glasses I suppose but I easily believe one's sexual preference is one's own option/opinion and I'm perfectly comfortable discussion those if one desires.
So I guess I support those sorts of scrolls when it's appropriate except in cases where one is injecting their own opinion on the subject when it's not in a scroll dedicated to that subject or hasn't lead into that area.
Happy gaming! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 11:12:02
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Drow Incest, Homosexuality in the Realms, and some others---all sealed. What's there to discuss? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 13:02:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Drow Incest, Homosexuality in the Realms, and some others---all sealed. What's there to discuss?
True, but just because those topics were sealed doesn't mean they were invalid or didnt provide meaningful discussions. I hadn't posted in those threads because they didnt have revelance in my game, but it might have had some in others. Besides, those topics aren't any more or less controversial than ones dealing with Editions, but maybe a little more personal depending on who you talk to.
If anything, it's the one who posts their opinion that should be double-checking their content before hitting the send button, not the topic at hand. |
Edited by - Diffan on 03 Apr 2011 13:04:55 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 13:37:16
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| The only time I had sexual coloured respose were twice lately. Didn'tknow people would take offence to it, sorry. :/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 15:07:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Drow Incest, Homosexuality in the Realms, and some others---all sealed. What's there to discuss?
Those topics weren't sealed because of people interjecting their own preferences into them. The Homosexuality one was sealed because it ceased to be a discussion about the Realms, even after Sage twice requested it get back on topic. The Drow Incest thread went into an ugly place that had nothing to do with personal sexuality.
The problem we've been seeing of late is personal sexuality and/or religion getting brought up in almost every discussion, even when it's not relevant to that discussion. That's the only thing we're taking issue with. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 15:16:50
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
The only time I had sexual coloured respose were twice lately. Didn'tknow people would take offence to it, sorry. :/
I'm sorry, but that's not accurate. As Sage already mentioned, in a significant number of the scrolls you've posted in, you've managed to bring up your sexual preferences and/or religion, even when it's not relevant to the discussion at hand. And that's not what we're here for. We're here to discuss a fictitous world, not to bring in personal elements from the real world. There are other forums for such discussions.
As long as you're here to talk about the Realms, it doesn't matter if you're tall, short, fat, skinny, male, female, white, black, Asian, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, pagan, Democrat, Republican, a fan of classical music, a fan of rap, a fan of death metal, athletic, handicapped, have perfect vision, need trifocals and contacts, straight, bi, gay, transgender, young, old, a dedicated geek, a dabbler in fantasy, rich, poor, famous, unknown, bald, sporting a Mohawk -- none of that matters. We are Candlekeep, and we're all about the Realms. Check everything else at the door. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 16:05:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Drow Incest, Homosexuality in the Realms, and some others---all sealed. What's there to discuss?
Those topics weren't sealed because of people interjecting their own preferences into them. The Homosexuality one was sealed because it ceased to be a discussion about the Realms, even after Sage twice requested it get back on topic. The Drow Incest thread went into an ugly place that had nothing to do with personal sexuality.
The problem we've been seeing of late is personal sexuality and/or religion getting brought up in almost every discussion, even when it's not relevant to that discussion. That's the only thing we're taking issue with.
As an author of Drow Incest, I believe I had asked repeatedly for scribes to calm down, and I've asked mods several times to lift the lock... no reply.
When the lock is lifted, I'll ask people again to refrain from personal comments. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 16:06:49
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| The only times I ever talked about religion were in the two forums that were specifically about religion and I never said anything of late about my sexuality. I was stating what I liked but aparently it got twisted around into something ugly. I've only ever mentioned my sexuality two or three times before in my peost. They all had to do (the threads) with something related to sex and sexuality. I don't find it necessary to talk about because it bores and annoys me most of the tme. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 16:09:20
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| @Zireael- that sounds like an interesting thread |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 17:41:30
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I just avoid threads that are on topics that hold no interest to me (admittadly, those are far and few between).
Ed has discussed this topic repeatedly in regards to the Realms, and I parroted him a bit in the thread that caused this thread to 'come about'.
I don't understand why it even needs to be brought-up - its a NON-ISSUE (in regards to the Forgotten Realms). To me, its akin to discussing why rock is grey, or dirt is brown. People in The Realms do not even think as we do - they have an alien mindset when it comes to how we perceive much of the world.
Discussing these things is like trying to figure out how ET would get along with Yoda, or if the Predator would respect a Klingon. Guess what? As Earth humans we will never know, because they do not think like us.*
Also, in the past I have brought-up issues of my own, both here and at WotC, but only in-passing, and didn't 'beat a dead horse' with them. A couple of people inquired further (in PMs, where such things BELONG), and I briefly explained to them my situation, and that was that. It is NOT a topic for forum discussion, and certainly NOT a topic for a Forgotten Realms forum. The key word in 'personal information' is PERSONAL, and it should be kept that way (unless it is relevant to the topic, and you care to share).
*and also because they don't exist, but that's beside the point. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 17:59:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
This was brought up elsewhere, but given that it's become such a focused topic these days, I felt the need to address it specifically in its own scroll:-
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Hmmm...
You know Sage, I wonder sometimes if our own sexual preferences might color our responses. How often do some drool over THO or voice their heated loins over some female realms character...which openly decrees our sexual preference? Yet, a male saying something about incubi is then too much.
I mean no offense, but it may seem a double standard to those who do not feel that they may freely exhibit their own preferences.
I am not one to usually get involved in such matters honestly, but to moderate is obviously a hard job; so perhaps I should not say one way or another...only that I'm unsure of whether it is fully fair.
I honestly would prefer NO SEXUAL REFERENCE in threads unless those threads deal particularly with sex.
Dalor, you're only referring to stuff that I've already thought about, which is what I was trying to say earlier about both Wooly and I treading a fine line when it comes to these types of issues and the site CoC.
But, at the same time, jokingly lusting after the Lady Hooded One, as some of us tend to do, isn't something we inject into just about every discussion that's popped up recently.
I don't have any problem with personal details being referenced in a discussion, if it helps to carry a point in a Realms discussion across, or if fellow scribes are interested in learning said info. My only issue is having it permeate nearly every new scroll that's coming into these halls. It's not only distracting, but it can eventually severely undermine the CoC.
So, again, I'm NOT saying that gay or non-gay scribes can't express certain personal feelings over aspects of the Realms, or during discussion about Realms elements. But making it a priority for your posting technique in a discussion isn't what Candlekeep is about.
...
Now, I'm going to openly encourage debate on this. But I want all participating scribes to remember that we are all free to discuss how we feel on this issue, and no one -- not even a Moderator -- can tell you whether what you're feeling is right or wrong... so long as it doesn't negatively impact on your fellow scribes.
So, please, THINK before you comment in this discussion.
I'm greatly in support of the efforts made by you and Wooly Sage; I was speaking more to how others evidence their feelings and thought that perhaps that it would be best to avoid any and all sexual reference in threads unrelated to sex.
It was my understanding that sex was to be avoided in conversation just as religion and politics are to be avoided...but being the animals that we are, sex comes up freely and seldom amid censorship. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 19:19:02
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quote:
Markustay
I just avoid threads that are on topics that hold no interest to me (admittadly, those are far and few between).
This is my approach as well. If I have nothing to say about the topic then I'll either avoid it or start doing some research (in and out of Candlekeep) to learn what it's about.
The problem, recently, is that this simply isn't an option*. Every topic invariably becomes seized (or seizured) and every page is permeated with the sort of stuff I personally find disinteresting, inappropriate in a place like Candlekeep, and entirely unrelated to the Realms (regardless of how twisted into Realms-phrasing it might be). * More accurately, it's always an option, of course, but I'd rather not abandon the keep.
I'm not a big prude, nor judging or condemning or whatever (though ye'll believe as ye like about me, I encourage that, and like it or not I care little) ... censorship is not required, but, seriously, keep the Keep away from the meat market. Just demonstrate some discretion, (un)common sense, maturity, and respect for other scribes, that's all I ask. I think we all understand what it means to be grownups who can play nice and share the playground; and there are some toys which belong in other playgrounds. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Apr 2011 19:56:52 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 20:56:44
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Are you trying to say that my reverberating carbonizer with mutate capacity doesn't belong here?
And yeah, there is a fine line between 'acceptance', and 'having one's nose rubbed in it'. I do not envy mods; sometimes its very hard to figure out what IS the right thing to do. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 07:21:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As long as you're here to talk about the Realms, it doesn't matter if you're tall, short, fat, skinny, male, female, white, black, Asian, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, pagan, Democrat, Republican, a fan of classical music, a fan of rap, a fan of death metal, athletic, handicapped, have perfect vision, need trifocals and contacts, straight, bi, gay, transgender, young, old, a dedicated geek, a dabbler in fantasy, rich, poor, famous, unknown, bald, sporting a Mohawk -- none of that matters. We are Candlekeep, and we're all about the Realms. Check everything else at the door.
Wooly that is truely sig worthy... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 09:15:25
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| If it matters, CK has been blocked at work for the past several months now. The keywords that are showing up under our web sense relate to sexual content and not gaming. On a personal level, this level of depth holds no value for me and I find it mostly inappropriate relating to the reasons I love the Realms. |
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DBG
Acolyte
United Kingdom
29 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 09:38:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As long as you're here to talk about the Realms, it doesn't matter if you're tall, short, fat, skinny, male, female, white, black, Asian, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, pagan, Democrat, Republican, a fan of classical music, a fan of rap, a fan of death metal, athletic, handicapped, have perfect vision, need trifocals and contacts, straight, bi, gay, transgender, young, old, a dedicated geek, a dabbler in fantasy, rich, poor, famous, unknown, bald, sporting a Mohawk -- none of that matters. We are Candlekeep, and we're all about the Realms. Check everything else at the door.
Wooly that is truely sig worthy...
That's just what I was thinking.
We are all here for the game and the camaraderie that is the realms, nothing else! |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 10:07:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
If it matters, CK has been blocked at work for the past several months now. The keywords that are showing up under our web sense relate to sexual content and not gaming.
I am sincerely sorry to hear that! But I would like to point out that this might tell us more about your work and the configuration of the web sense there than about Candlekeep. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 10:08:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
If it matters, CK has been blocked at work for the past several months now. The keywords that are showing up under our web sense relate to sexual content and not gaming.
I am sincerely sorry to hear that! But I would like to point out that this might tell us more about your work and the configuration of the web sense there than about Candlekeep. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 10:08:43
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| By the way, dear Sage, you should also consider that many people might be more sensitive than is obvious regarding another issue which is frequently mentioned on this board but which people seem much less to regard as a touchy subject: violence. People are relatively comfortable, at least in an RPG context, to talk about weapons, wounds, battle, torture, beheadings, gore etc., but as soon as the word 'gay' is mentioned, people say that sexuality is an inappropriate subject. I am not surprised about this, though, given that this exactly mirrors the "rules of television" of some Western countries, especially the USA: lots of (strong) violence but woe betide someone showing a nipple. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 10:50:12
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| I guess my point is: do worry and discuss sexuality in the Keep by all means but don't lose a sense of proportion/don't treat sexuality in a way too much different from other issues like violence. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 11:12:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
By the way, dear Sage, you should also consider that many people might be more sensitive than is obvious regarding another issue which is frequently mentioned on this board but which people seem much less to regard as a touchy subject: violence. People are relatively comfortable, at least in an RPG context, to talk about weapons, wounds, battle, torture, beheadings, gore etc., but as soon as the word 'gay' is mentioned, people say that sexuality is an inappropriate subject. I am not surprised about this, though, given that this exactly mirrors the "rules of television" of some Western countries, especially the USA: lots of (strong) violence but woe betide someone showing a nipple.
The issue isn't sexuality in the game, though -- we're talking about when people bring their personal sexuality into discussions.
If someone came in and kept casually mentioning beating people up in the real world, people would have issues with that, too. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Apr 2011 11:13:28 |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 11:57:00
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Thank you for the clarification. If you read all the posts in this scroll, however, you will find that it is not easy - maybe not even completely possible - to keep those two worlds - inside and outside the game - apart. That being said, I think it is possible to a certain extent.
If the purpose is really only to ask people to be careful about bringing their own sexual preferences into discussions - fair enough.
Edit: And I don't think that the web filters mentioned above make a distinction between in-game and RW/personal references to sex, for example. |
Edited by - Thieran on 04 Apr 2011 11:59:47 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 16:25:31
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quote:
Matt James
... CK has been blocked at work for the past several months now ...
You're evidently not at work (or being naughty at work), lol |
[/Ayrik] |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 16:53:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
If it matters, CK has been blocked at work for the past several months now. The keywords that are showing up under our web sense relate to sexual content and not gaming.
I am sincerely sorry to hear that! But I would like to point out that this might tell us more about your work and the configuration of the web sense there than about Candlekeep.
You should come here to DC. You would make a great politician!  (kidding)
My point had nothing to do with my employer's policy, and more about some of the content of the site. CK is far from raunchy when it comes to the web, but it was telling (for me) when Web Sense started to pick it up.
Also, I am off work right now, so viewing from home does come up when time permits. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 19:19:37
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On a slightly off-track note, a similar type of discussion came up on the Bioware forums regarding the relationships in Dragon Age 2. The poster put forth that Bioware was "ignoring" their main demographic by allowing anything but relationships between a male main character and a female NPC. Below is the official response from Bioware For the complete thread, click here.
quote:
To the OP: doing the same act repeatedly and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. What you hope to achieve by posting the same thread over and over again I can't honestly say.
To some of the others on this thread: While an ignorant opinion politely expressed doesn't make it less ignorant, I will say that the behavior of some of you is far worse. Calling someone a "troll" who expressed his thoughts in an intelligent manner and acting like hooligans suggesting if you just throw enough dirt that eventually that person will either go away or the thread will get locked will earn you a ban. No matter the opinion, I think how it's expressed deserves the same in kind. If you can't do that, refrain.
To the issue: I've said it before and I'll say it again-- perhaps a bit more eloquently, since it's apparently of dire concern to some.
The romances in the game are not for "the straight male gamer". They're for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant... and that's ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to play the kind of game they wish as anyone else. The "rights" of anyone with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the majority. The majority has no inherent "right" to get more options than anyone else.
More than that, I would question anyone deciding they speak for "the straight male gamer" just as much as someone claiming they speak for "all RPG fans", "all female fans" or even "all gay fans". You don't. If you wish to express your personal desires, then do so. I have no doubt that any opinion expressed on these forums is shared by many others, but since none of them have elected a spokesperson you're better off not trying to be one. If your attempt is to convince BioWare developers, I can tell you that you do in fact make your opinion less convincing by doing so.
And if there is any doubt why such an opinion might be met with hostility, it has to do with privilege. You can write it off as "political correctness" if you wish, but the truth is that privilege always lies with the majority. They're so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don't see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what's everyone's fuss all about? That's the way it should be, any everyone else should be used to not getting what they want.
The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one. Does it create some issues of implementation? Sure-- but anything you try on this front is going to have its issues, and inevitably you'll always leave someone out in the cold. In this case, are all straight males left out in the cold? Not at all. There are romances available for them just the same as anyone else. Not all straight males require that their content be exclusive, after all, and you can see that even on this thread.
Would I do it again? I don't know. I doubt I would have Anders make the first move again-- at the time, I thought that requiring all romances to have Hawke initiate everything was the unrealistic part. Even if someone decides that this makes everyone "unrealistically" bisexual, however, or they can't handle the idea that the character might be bisexual if they were another PC... I don't see that as a big concern, to be honest. Romances are never one-size-fits-all, and even for those who don't mind the sexuality issue there's no guarantee they'll find a character they even want to romance. That's why romances are optional content. It's such a personal issue that we'll never be able to please everyone. The very best we can do is give everyone a little bit of choice, and that's what we tried here.
And the person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that's my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.
In a wall of text. Sorry about that.
And I'm sorry if someone didn't get everything they wanted out of the romances-- as I always am. I wish we could do the ideal where there's something for every desire and opinion, but as usual we make do.
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I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 04 Apr 2011 19:20:16 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 20:24:06
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*Fails Wis and Int check, thus posts*
I moderate space on the web, not here of course.
A moderator compared to the user appears to some to be all powerful.
It is more a duty rather then privileged to be one.
Oh yes we can ban, we ca know your IP and we can edit posts.
Our pay, at least for most of us, is knowing the IP you used should we need to know.
Our duty is to prevent disruptive factors 24 hours a day, not even an elf can not do that.
Finding a balance is the key. In past years ago or member concern about changes and policy adopted I banned many, one even at user request. I was accused of abusing power and following a different standard for certain users. I do not believe this is correct, however perception is what matters to maintaining any discussion forum.
Part of solution I arrived at was posting policy change on the one site and not wearing a moderator badge. There because of that a new visitor was rude to me, a regular said he would have banned that user. On that site there is nothing against the rules for being rude, there was no way I could justify a ban. The user likely still does not know insulted three users including the moderator. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 06:20:17
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I have never shared my story about Azuth, and why I've chosen him as my namesake here at the Keep. "What," say ye? "How daft must one be to think that personal?" My tale unfolds thus:
When I created my first Priest of Azuth, over twenty years ago, I made him Lawful Neutral as was Azuth in "Adventures." Because I am inherently good person, or so I like to think, I was rather shocked when I met an NPC who also worshipped Azuth, and I discovered (through magic) that he was Lawful Evil. I was so mortified that I actually challenged the DM that worshippers of Azuth couldn't be evil (mistake number one) and he told me that Azuth only demanded his followers be lawful, and that he cared not a whit if they were good, neutral, or evil. Of course, he was right, but that is my first recollection of me trying to infuse my own beliefs in the real world into the game setting. In sharp surrealism, I then realized I had played a horrible Priest of Bane because I went around healing anyone and everyone who asked it of me. I should have worshiped Ilmater, but he was my first character, and the DM knew that. Furthermore, I had only intended to play D&D for one night, and he was someone else's rolled-but-never-played character at that.
One recent topic, of which there was much discussion, was "Sexism in the Realms." While I maintained, and still do, that sexism is not inherent in the Realms, I had my opinion altered slightly while rereading a section of Ed Greenwood's Knights of Myth Drannor series last night.
quote:
From Swords of Eveningstar, page 38 of the paperback: (of Jhessail)
And she likely had things better than most. Espar was fair, and she had kind and keen-witted parents who loved her, good friends and a rightful place.
Aye, a place—and a road ahead of her in life as sharp-hewn and high-fenced as a slaughet-chute to butcher sheep or hogs. She would be expected to marry a man of Espar, a longjack probably much her elder, and cook, bedwarm, sew, clean, and slave herself for him until he died or she did. No matter how he treated her or wherever else he strayed. And if the gods took her longjack first, she'd be "Widow Longjack" the rest of her days, expected to live alone and be one of the local backlane crones blamed for all misfortune, never to remarry or even look at another man.
If she found no way out of Espar, such would be her lot. No choice and no escape....
If that isn't sexism, I don't know what is—and in Cormyr, no less!
Time is a funny thing: had I read that book a week earlier, my posts may have been different. For in that quote is Realmslore written by Ed himself, and it offers evidence that in some ways, the Realms are as sexist as our own world is and was.
But I very much wanted the Realms to be idyllic as I felt they should be, much as I wanted Azuth to be a god of goodly mages, versus the god of Mages. Yet again I was placing projecting my own, real-world wants and beliefs into the Realms. Thus I'll agree with TradeWitch that there really aren't any examples of homosexual relationships in the published Realms, although Ed has commented more than enough to allay any thoughts that it has ever been his contention that the Realms are free from it. I also agree with Sage that THO is special to us all, and is the equivalent of Sune in that one must acknowledge her beauty even if or in spite of the fact that one does or does not find women attractive. For those of us who have never met THO in person, we can only look at her kind words of encouragement, her advocacy on our behalf to Ed, and her willingness to share what she can of her own experiences in playing within the original Realms setting. That is a thing of beauty, and she must be recognized in doing so.
I have made sexual jokes with people of both genders in various scrolls here in the Keep. I do not discuss my own real-world desires here and wouldn't do so in a public forum. This isn't out of respect of a policy in as much as it really has nothing at all to do with the Realms. If someone really wants to know about that aspect of my life, then by all means, send me a private message (as others have already allued to - private things should be discussed in private messages) but on here, my persona is that of Azuth. As our moderators have said both subtly and bluntly: Candlekeep is not a place to have arguments about our personal lives. I have and continue to enjoy conversations on religion, politics, and other "off limit" topics with many-a-scribe via private messages, and welcome others to message me should they so desire, for whatever reason, to discuss them with me.
Where I draw the line, and thus unsubscribe from a topic, is when either the topic is no longer the subject of discussion, personal attacks ensue like great battles, or the topical question is truly answered yet people will not let the scroll be rolled up for posterity's sake. I come to this version of Candlekeep for the same reason I would visit the "real" one if I lived in the Realms. I am a student of knowledge, and I enjoy speaking with others who share my interests on topics on which I value others insights, or feel my own can lend so small amount of effort toward an answer.
But, it is unrealistic to think that we do not bring our "real selves" to Candlekeep in some fashion. I believe we all succeed when we rise above a challenge or affront on us personally, and do not reply to such hostilities. Stooping to the level of the attacker makes us not only no better, but complicit in the practice that none of us truly enjoys. Be thankful, fellow scribes, that I am not a moderator on the Keep. Many a posting would have been deleted as inflammatory by me; the Sage and Wooly deserve your thanks, not your criticisms. They have a very restrained hand, far more than most moderators with whom I am familiar.
Sexuality is a large part of the lives of mortals in the Realms, just as it is in our world. I have suggested that unlike our world, the Realms just bundle all sexuality into the purview of the deities of love, and it is as inconsequential to the others as bugs are to the gods of War. We all have our passions, similar to the portfolios of the gods of Faerűn. If you feel the need or interest to comment on something, please do! We learn through each other's opinions and insights. But if you have nothing to say of value, at least in scrolls where I am present, I can only ask you to hold your tongue. Instigating "flame wars" only draws negative attention, and benefits nobody.
Think and write through the eyes of your characters in the Realms, whenever possible, and almost all of what plagues this scroll will be a thing of the past. I welcome learning of my fellow scribes’ interests, thoughts, and comments; I ask only that personal details unrelated to topics be sent to me via private message so that we can agree (or disagree) without shouting our conversation to the other scribes and disrupt their pursuit of knowledge.
I thank everyone for his or her time, and look forward to continuing the marvelous friendships I have formed here at Candlekeep far into the future.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 07:23:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
I also agree with Sage that THO is special to us all, and is the equivalent of Sune in that one must acknowledge her beauty even if or in spite of the fact that one does or does not find women attractive. For those of us who have never met THO in person, we can only look at her kind words of encouragement, her advocacy on our behalf to Ed, and her willingness to share what she can of her own experiences in playing within the original Realms setting. That is a thing of beauty, and she must be recognized in doing so.
Just a quick comment on that---appreciation of beauty and sexual comments/innuendo are separate things, mixed together only when someone chooses to do so (or for some reason can't figure out how they're different). I'm not attempting to censure that classic CK practice or to speak for THO in the least, and it's more than obvious that she has no problem with the commentary; I'm merely pointing out the difference and the choice involved.
I will clinically discuss some subjects that are quite dark, disturbing, and controversial if I have a conversation partner who is equally decent and clinical about it, whom I deem to be interested in picking apart humanoid mindsets, emotions, development, relationships, and society rather than taking it too much to heart in one manner or another. I'll second Azuth's view about doing so outside of the scrolls, and I hope that if I get into areas too grey, someone will point it out to me without hesitation; I'm subject to occasional unrealized fixations, but I like to think I take halfway-courteous correction well.
That said, I'm not personally bothered by a "Yay, yummy incubus" from someone of either sex on the scrolls, so long as it goes no further; juicy details just don't belong, and dwelling on such a subject serves no constructive purpose. It does seem to be slightly unnecessary, but it isn't like we haven't had similar in-passing comments of a straight variety. The problem wasn't a single, relatively innocuous post on a single scroll.
RW details have been finding their way into many posts lately, sometimes driven by very "strong opinions" in a forum where the strong opinions that we all have (it's part of being human) are expected to be expressed thoughtfully and with respect toward others, if those opinions are even pertinent enough to be included in a post. I've kept my own strong opinions to myself even when perhaps I should have made a brief post respectfully requesting that someone "not go there" with regard to RW issues. I can't possibly begin to count the number and variety of slights I have read at CK against my own RW faith, in jest and in earnest, and most of them haven't drawn notice from mods (whom I don't blame, and I don't envy them their responsibilities and difficult positions at all; I think they do a remarkable job here). My logic, common sense, wisdom, and integrity have been repeatedly sneered at by scribes I respect as well as ones I know little about, by means of the references they make to something so integral to my life and worldview. None of it has been directed at me knowingly, in a personal way, but many people seem to overlook the fact that we get all kinds here. I say this now only in the interest of pointing out as a wincing example (aimed broadly at the whole idea behind this scroll and the need for Sage to have started it) that I try not to plaster my strong RW opinions---which I do have, believe me---everywhere for all to see, because they have no bearing on what this site is about, even when others in inappropriate ways post their strong opinions about what is a part of me. I honestly don't believe anyone at CK, except for a very few friends, even knows whether or not I am as bisexual and polyamorous as the characters in my signature, and those others would probably only know that much---about one of my characters---from reading a single, objective post I made in keeping with a thread in which the issue of sexual orientation was brought up as possible at-least-partial motivation for a PC cleaving to a particular deity. My own sexuality really has nothing to do one way or the other with what I play in D&D or how I debate a topic at CK, and my faith comes in only insofar as my viewpoint on the nature of reality (my perspective, bias, whatever) is inherently shaped by that mindset. |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
Edited by - Laerrigan on 06 Apr 2011 07:34:35 |
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Re: discussing personal details at Candlekeep
