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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 15:59:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In prior editions, you had to have certain ability scores to be certain classes, and it worked out with some races naturally being better at certain classes than others. I don't see why that's suddenly an issue, or why every single race/class combination has to be just as good as every other.
Yea, that was bad IMO. Though its still true that certain races are better at others. Dwarves for example, who have a +2 Con; +2 Str or +2 Wis, are naturally good battleminds, clerics, fighters, and invokers based on those stats where as an Elf (+2 Dex; +2 Wis or +2 Int) can be great avengers, druids, invokers, rangers, and wizards with some inclination towards Swordmages. This goes to show that while some races are GREAT at certain classes, it's not discouraged from others like Tiefling fighters, Eladrin barbarians, or Dwarf wizards. Sure, the specs aren't great but they're not hindered either. I think the flex stats are a better option than trying to create a whole new sub-race with special flavor and stats.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
When I'm making a new character, I go for concept, first, and then worry about the rules. If I want to play a moon elf fighter, I'm going to play a moon elf fighter, even if a gold elf or a dwarf or a half-titan would be slightly better. I don't need a ruleset to have a built-in equalizer to make me want to play a moon elf instead of a gold elf, or a shield dwarf instead of a gold dwarf, or even a human instead of a gnome.
I totally agree and understand as I do the same with my characters too. But what makes 4E really shine is that Eladrin (moon elves) can make for great fighters without worrying much about the stats. A +2 Dex, +2 Cha makes them better with Heavy Blades (longswords) and Polearms and their Charisma makes them a good face for the party and helps with social skills like Diploamcy, Bluff, etc... Before in v3.5 a Moon elf (+2 Dex, -2 Con) would be a much poorer choice for a fighter with that penalty to Constitution where as a Wood elf might be a much better fit since it receies better bonuses for a figher. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 16:24:55
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| 3 Player's Handbooks!?! Oy Ve! |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 20:45:11
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I am not a fan of giving racial modifiers to sub-races, because I am uneasy when humanocentric RPGs do it with humans (like Iron kingdoms).
Even when it is a fantasy world, we can usually associate a group with a particular RW culture, so isn't it insulting to do so indirectly? If the khards (the Slavo-Russian like group of IK) have a -1 to intelligence, aren't we calling Russians 'stupid'?
What if I decided that Kara-Turrans should get a +1 to Int and a -1 to Str, because they are "smarter then caucasians but smaller and not as physically imposing". Would that be okay? After all, they aren't a RW culture so why not? Don't you think Yao Ming (the basketball player) would have something to say about being called 'puny'?
I dislike stereotypes because they open up a can of worms. By modifying the stats you don't just change the average, you also change the high and low end of the scale, which is just plain wrong to me. You are saying that a Wood elf could NEVER be as smart as a gold Elf, and I just can't abide that. I think the Gold elves are just 'smarter' because they have more opportunities at 'higher learning' then their more rural cousins.
That's why I do not like these modifiers for sub-races - if they were real people instead of just fantasy tropes, don't you think those stat-mods would be highly insulting?
There are other ways to show the Gold Elves being of 'higher learning' without resorting to heavy-handed methods, but unfortunately D&D rules aren't really designed with finesse in mind (ANY edition). For instance, you could do something like roll 2D6 and one d4+2 for Gold elves, which only changes the average result without adjusting the extremes of the bell-curve. Not a perfect solution, but one workable within the rules-structure as presented.
I think environment counts a great deal more with sub-races then blood, and the elves all the more so. By their nature they are extremely adaptable (they can become water-breathers at-will, apparently!), so it makes more sense to me that the culture an elf is raised in would determine his stats more then his heritage. A savage (of any race) being brought into a city as an infant would NOT still be a savage upon reaching adulthood... and this is the kind of thinking that leads to racial modifiers for sub-races.
If anything, give Elves a 'floating' modifier that they could apply to either Int or Dex, and then there is no need to create separate subraces. It just seems to me like a lot of unnecessary redundancy. Drow, on the other hand, may be an exception - they have clearly 'evolved' into something else entirely. For this reason I don't take exception of Eladrin having separate stats from Elves, because the two have evolved in completely separate environments (so YES, elves from different worlds could have different stats).
Just my 2 cents, is all. Obviously most folks will disagree with me. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2011 20:46:44 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 21:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
3 Player's Handbooks!?! Oy Ve!
Well people cried for the Monk and other Psionic classes and of course the Gith races. And while we're at it, why not throw in Minotaur races as well? I wasn't espically thrilled with the PH3 as I didn't see any use for the classes therein. Ok, I take that back, I like Runepriests and Minotaurs. And the book did give us Hybrid options, which is sorta cool.
@ Markus: I can definitly get on board with you there with not having a bunch of sub-racial stat modifiers. As much of a fan I am of diversity, I'm more a fan of keeping it simple. A specific set of mechanics that govern a whole race is easier to conceptualize than each individual sub-race receives different stats, bonuses, skills, etc... |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 21:53:00
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I liked PH3; I was one of the people who wanted monks, for stylistic reasons more than anything else, and having minotaurs as a playable race was a very welcome addition.
In regards to races and classes, I'm one of the people who goes for concept over optimization. Right now I have a campaign with a drow swordmage and a drow invoker playing major rolls; stats wise they have no advantages in those classes at all, but they work for story purposes. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 23:21:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am not a fan of giving racial modifiers to sub-races, because I am uneasy when humanocentric RPGs do it with humans (like Iron kingdoms).
Even when it is a fantasy world, we can usually associate a group with a particular RW culture, so isn't it insulting to do so indirectly? If the khards (the Slavo-Russian like group of IK) have a -1 to intelligence, aren't we calling Russians 'stupid'?
What if I decided that Kara-Turrans should get a +1 to Int and a -1 to Str, because they are "smarter then caucasians but smaller and not as physically imposing". Would that be okay? After all, they aren't a RW culture so why not? Don't you think Yao Ming (the basketball player) would have something to say about being called 'puny'?
I dislike stereotypes because they open up a can of worms. By modifying the stats you don't just change the average, you also change the high and low end of the scale, which is just plain wrong to me. You are saying that a Wood elf could NEVER be as smart as a gold Elf, and I just can't abide that. I think the Gold elves are just 'smarter' because they have more opportunities at 'higher learning' then their more rural cousins.
That's why I do not like these modifiers for sub-races - if they were real people instead of just fantasy tropes, don't you think those stat-mods would be highly insulting?
There are other ways to show the Gold Elves being of 'higher learning' without resorting to heavy-handed methods, but unfortunately D&D rules aren't really designed with finesse in mind (ANY edition). For instance, you could do something like roll 2D6 and one d4+2 for Gold elves, which only changes the average result without adjusting the extremes of the bell-curve. Not a perfect solution, but one workable within the rules-structure as presented.
I think environment counts a great deal more with sub-races then blood, and the elves all the more so. By their nature they are extremely adaptable (they can become water-breathers at-will, apparently!), so it makes more sense to me that the culture an elf is raised in would determine his stats more then his heritage. A savage (of any race) being brought into a city as an infant would NOT still be a savage upon reaching adulthood... and this is the kind of thinking that leads to racial modifiers for sub-races.
If anything, give Elves a 'floating' modifier that they could apply to either Int or Dex, and then there is no need to create separate subraces. It just seems to me like a lot of unnecessary redundancy. Drow, on the other hand, may be an exception - they have clearly 'evolved' into something else entirely. For this reason I don't take exception of Eladrin having separate stats from Elves, because the two have evolved in completely separate environments (so YES, elves from different worlds could have different stats).
Just my 2 cents, is all. Obviously most folks will disagree with me.
Well, if we carry this argument out to the next step, we wind up saying that elves are smarter than humans or that all dwarves are healthier. If it's okay to do it in that case, why not in subraces?
Racial stats are just a starting point. There is nothing that says stats are absolute; therefore, while one group may tend to excel in some areas but not in others, there are always going to be exceptions to the rule. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 16:58:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
How 'bout this:
Star Elf Glamour: As you shift through Sildëyuir, you take some of that plane's etheralness with you. When you use your fey step racial power, you become insubstantial until the beginning of your next turn.
Special: You cannot take this feat if you have the Moon Elf Resilience or Gold Elf Grace feats.
OR
Star Elf Presence: Your otherworldy presence is something to behold, dazzling your foes as you teleport to and from of Sildëyuir. Whenever you use your fey step racial power, any enemies you teleport adjacent to become dazed unti the beginning of your next turn.
Special: You cannot take this feat if you have the Moon Elf Resilience or Gold Elf Grace feats.
There, hopefully that's a bit more flavorful and more Star Elvish than what I came up with before.
Very nice. Well done, sir!
Though personally, since Star Elf Presence is RIDICULOUSLY more powerful (no action auto-daze in a close burst 1 that targets only enemies? Wow!) than Star Elf Glamour (which is well balanced), I'd recommend making Star Elf Presence a paragon tier feat and slapping a requirement of 11th level on it.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 17:09:14
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I want to add two things:
1) The various races DO have floating ability score bumps (that's one of the best additions of the Essentials expansion). Eladrin currently have +2 Int and +2 Dex or +2 Cha, while Elves have +2 Dex and +2 Int or +2 Wis. Personally, I would have preferred both stats to be floating (i.e., your eladrin has two of the following stat bumps: Dex, Int, Cha, and your elf has two of the following bumps: Dex, Int, Wis), but I can understand why they did it the way they did.
2) To reiterate something I said before, subraces may well be addressed in a more official capacity later. Keep advocating for them to be addressed, but don't cross into the "why won't WotC give us this?" realm of protest.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 17:36:28
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| Or just implement any subrace mechanics you like. They can always be adjusted if/when WotC releases official rules, so you can whichever flavour D&D you prefer without waiting indefinitely. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 17:36:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Very nice. Well done, sir!
Though personally, since Star Elf Presence is RIDICULOUSLY more powerful (no action auto-daze in a close burst 1 that targets only enemies? Wow!) than Star Elf Glamour (which is well balanced), I'd recommend making Star Elf Presence a paragon tier feat and slapping a requirement of 11th level on it.
Cheers
Yea, I realize that now, lol. Thanks for pointing that out. My Game Designer-fu isn't fully up to par with 4E yet. As for the prereqs for the Star Elf Presence, I like the paragon tier requirement. Definitly a good choice. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 18:44:36
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Make the star elf feats official - team up and get Wizards to accept it for Dragon  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 19:26:20
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I was already thinking of that, Alisttair. Diffan, would you be interested? It's sure to be time-consuming, thankless, and laborious, but hey, you never know. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 19:53:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I was already thinking of that, Alisttair. Diffan, would you be interested? It's sure to be time-consuming, thankless, and laborious, but hey, you never know.
Cheers
My name in print?! Where do I sign up? |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 12:38:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I was already thinking of that, Alisttair. Diffan, would you be interested? It's sure to be time-consuming, thankless, and laborious, but hey, you never know.
Cheers
Nay! I thank both of you (Erik and Diffan) in advance (whether it actually sees print or not). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 02:54:07
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Well I'm all for it, though I've only ever submitted 1 thing to WotC and I never even got a letter saying "We Regret to inform you..." but I figured it wasn't put together well, in all honesty, so I wasn't all that suprised
As Erik is an actual author of FR fiction, I'm expecting him to pull the leg work for getting things through the door  but I'll do whatever is in my power to get this done. I've always had a fondness of the Star elves as they don't see a lot of love in 3E and less in novels. Though I think Stardeep is set in Sildëyuir, which I currently have and should start reading, lol.
Anyways, always looking for new ventures so I say lets give it a shot! |
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Star Elves in Fourth Edition FR
