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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 04:50:38
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Some folks may remember me from the Realms mailing list fromd days of yore. I've drifted into and out of candlekeep overthe years, for a long time my home computer didn't have the software to view the site properly, and when it did 3e had come around and my interest in the Realms declined dramatically and I saw little reason to hang out here for discussions of prestige classes and feats.
But I've recently started rereading my old FR novels, starting with Avatar series, now I am reading Elaine Cunningham's wonderful novels again.
That got me thinking about the realms, and how it has really had no stability over the years. And why.
It's easy to say bad designeers, but what does that mean? Myself, I judge a setting designer on respect for continuity, innovation, rules knowledge, and basic writing skills.
By my criteria the Realms has often had many excellent designers, but has suffered some pretty bad ones. Or at least, designers who had no respect for continuity even when they were innovative and good writers otherwise.
It's popular to point right away to 3e or I guess 4e today, maybe there is something to that. FR always had more than its sare of haters, after all. First it was the bitter mourners of Greyhawk, then it was those who resented Drizzt or Elminster. But we've all heard the mugs at conventions making fun of the Realms. Perhaps once 3e came around tyey just put those people in charge.
But nah, they weren't in charge when Zhentil Keep was destroyed, or when the Time of Troubles happened.
Many people have Forgotten that the Time of Troubles was actually Ed's idea. At least, he first came up with the idea as a means of transofrming a campaign setting, in a Dragon article he wrote concerning creating setting Pantheons. (Dragon #54, Oct 1981, suggested to help transform a campaign from the original D&D to AD&D rules...)
The problem was, IMO, a lack of focus that all the designers shared to a greater or lesser degree. It wasn't enough to explore fascinating human foes like Thay or the Zhents, instead we had to have maulagrym and phaerimm or however you spell those odd things. The city of Shade had to appear, and if you have one magical weave, why not create another?
The continuity mistakes are obvious (Shar goes from being Selune's foe in the old FR comics (and in F&A) to the arch foe of Mystra? Huh?) but they cannot be the sole cause of the problem.
Something about the Realms, perhaps the massive amount of material, made designers new to the setting want to set the past aside and start from scratch.
The result has been a glorious mess, but it is still a mess with no coherency and dozen of forgotten plot threads left abandoned in the detritus of older products.
It saddens me. I mean, I still run my own FR campaign, going since the grey boxed set came out, but now purely a PBEM game. But I don't have the sense of playing in a larger sandbox that I had in the heady 2e days when I believed the Time of Troubles was a one time glitch...
Anyway, I know folks around here are tired of the Edition Wars, and this hasn't been an attempt to restart them. But I do wonder why FR has been so prone to boiling over with these changes. What do you folks think? Why has stability been so elusive?
Or do you like the roiling boil of change? :)
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 05:38:18
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| It is my opinion that maintaining continuity has become less and less important as time has gone by, and that the cycle of RSEs was WotC following Hollywood's maxim: if it worked once, it'll work at least once more, so long as it's bigger than the original. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 05:47:17
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They are the kool!
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 06:31:31
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| For what it is worth, WotC appeared to fire editors first when doing cost reduction. The concept of continuity disappeared years ago. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 06:51:26
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FR isn't especially prone to boiling over with these sorts of changes. Look at what Dragonlance went through, the Traveller universe, the old World of Darkness. Or outside of RPGs, where DC Comics has a new installment of the Infinite Zero Final Hour Earths Crisis every handful of years.
If you let one world-shaking event into a world, the inevitable consequence seems to be a series of them, only ending if the property is finally canceled. I'm interested to see if Paizo can avoid it with Golarion, but I wouldn't bet on it; they made the mistake of allowing an advancing timeline, and that leaves the door open to adding a world-shaking event in the future. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 07:30:25
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Shar is never changed from being Selune's arch foe?
I liked the Time of Troubles plot. It didn't seem as over the top as the Spellplague to me. . . but i'm probably younger than most of you so that might have something to do with it. I was one year old when the Avatar trilogy started so that is all i've ever known.
I've just written my own Forgotten Realms timeline to make myself feel better = P |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 15:44:29
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I for one am optimistic about the future of FR fiction. (I am, of course, a little biased!)
For what it's worth, as I understand it, the series of RSEs during the 3e era was largely a marketing strategy. Those books tended to sell better--WAY better--than books that didn't feature a RSE. And like it or not, in order for the setting to subsist, it needed to bring in the funds.
If anything, the practice of limiting the impact of RSEs at the end of a RSE novel/trilogy seems to have been a tactic to PRESERVE canon/continuity/setting, rather than damage it. RSE novels tended to have a really vast scope and small impact--like something really big COULD happen, but the actual results were fairly small.
A few SPOILERS in my examples:
For example, if you're like me you got the sense during the Avatar trilogy that the Time of Troubles *could have* ended with serious craziness going down: with all the gods being dead and a radically different Realms, perhaps. As it was, you got a few dead gods (Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul were the big ones), one new god (Cyric), and one modified god (Mystra). I know there were changes, and we hardcore fans/sages can document them, but by and large, continuity remained intact. The Realms were still the Realms.
Remember War of the Spider Queen, which *could have* resulted in the destruction of the drow race, slaying of the drow deities, or at least the fall of the major houses in Menzoberranzan. Did any of that happen? Not really--one destroyed drow city, a lot of dead drow, and Lolth got a degree more powerful. It was a major, major, major RSE, but its actual impact to continuity was not huge.
END SPOILERS
Why do RSEs happen? Basically, it's to move product, and also to keep the setting alive and moving. If it's allowed to stagnate, it stops bringing in funds, and it stops existing as a published setting. And to me, at least, it stops being interesting: I want to see stories happening in the Realms, and in order for a story to be told, SOMETHING HAS TO HAPPEN.
The scope of that happening can vary, of course--I personally am very happy with small scale, more personal stories. And generally speaking, it seems like the FR books WotC has been putting out recently (for the 4e FR) have been firmly grounded in the personal. I haven't seen the procession of RSEs that dominated the 3e era, but rather novels that don't change the world that much, but do major things to their characters.
Cheers
P.S. Selune and Shar never stopped being arch-enemies. That Shar is also Mystra's arch-enemy dates back to the creation story of the Realms (i.e. Mystra being their "daughter" god, that nurtures the fledgling world). But basically, as a force of entropy and nihilism, Shar is EVERYONE's arch-enemy.  |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 16:09:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
For what it's worth, as I understand it, the series of RSEs during the 3e era was largely a marketing strategy. Those books tended to sell better--WAY better--than books that didn't feature a RSE. And like it or not, in order for the setting to subsist, it needed to bring in the funds.
Indeed. And that's true not just to FR, but practically all shared-world-settings.
My problem with RSEs is not on their number, but on the way they are presented---some of them make little to no sense at all. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 24 Jan 2011 16:10:20 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 16:24:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
My problem with RSEs is not on their number, but on the way they are presented---some of them make little to no sense at all.
See, I don't get that. I've never read an RSE that didn't make sense in at least some way--or was at least plausible, based on the piece-meal information I had about that particular part of the setting.
Can you give me an example--pick an RSE and tell me how it makes "little to no sense at all"?
Generally speaking, I ascribe to a theory called the "Forgotten Realms Uncertain Metagaming Principle, Yo" (i.e. FRUMPY), which states that we don't (and indeed can't) understand everything about the setting, so when something happens that contradicts our understanding, it's better to role with it (see what I did there?), rather than waste energy trying to argue how it's not possible or doesn't make sense or contradicts previously understood canon.
And I should say "partially" understood canon, because the simple fact is, even the most learned FR scribes have only the barest shred of an understanding of how everything in the setting works, simply because we don't live there, much less operate on the high level that most of the dramatis personae in our FR fiction occupy. You and I might easily disagree on our interpretation of a particular event, and that's fine--that's INTENTIONAL. One of the strengths of the Realms as a setting is that it's open to interpretation and discussion. Also, it's a magical world where magic exists and shapes magical events and, oh, did I mention MAGIC?
I'm not saying anything is possible or all is permitted, but there are things we don't know, and IMO that leaves room for reasonable doubt in an amazing array of things.
My main criteria when judging a FR event (or any event in any setting) is: 1) does it make a good story? 2) does it "ring true" to the setting? 3) is it cool, rather than stupid?
Any FR event--RSE or not--has to meet those three criteria in order for me to consider it a reasonable and entertaining event. I'm not saying all of them do--I'm just pointing out the three most important aspects of a story told in the Realms, at least from my perspective.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 24 Jan 2011 16:24:39 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 17:18:29
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All of the RSEs were attempts to be like movie blockbusters. If you started or ended a trilogy with something huge, it would tend to draw in more readers.
And they did.
It's just an example of "what's good for novels" isn't necessarily good for the gaming product. Novels, particularly trilogies, wouldn't sell well if nothing "important" is happening. And in fantasy, important = flashy, earth-changing stuff. But in a gaming product, you're far better with a static world: that way, the DM and his/her players get to do the flashy, earth changing stuff (if they want to, or not).
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 18:39:08
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| I see no need for either RSE's nor the "advancement of the timeline" and think that in and of itself was a mistake from the beginning. My best example as to why the advancement of the timeline and RSE's are not needed is the Call of Cthulhu game, where the setting is the very defined 1920s (by default, you can play in other historical epochs). Yet, even with those limitations, Chaosium is still in business and still putting out material years later (and with very little rework of the rules either). Sure, they are not as big as D&D, but then again they also do not have the name recognition or marketing of that brand either. The Realms would have been fine without an advanced timeline and had decades worth of stuff to publish just by detailing locales/groups/etc that existed since the grey box. |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 19:17:43
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As a contrast to Paul’s (GMWestermeyer) thesis/summary of the state of how the Realms have been presented over the years, I’d love if Phil Athans could review and respond to his comments, as Phil’s was the guiding hand on the novel side of the Realms for some time.
Anyone know how to get a hold of Phil? |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 19:33:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
I see no need for either RSE's nor the "advancement of the timeline" and think that in and of itself was a mistake from the beginning. My best example as to why the advancement of the timeline and RSE's are not needed is the Call of Cthulhu game, where the setting is the very defined 1920s (by default, you can play in other historical epochs). Yet, even with those limitations, Chaosium is still in business and still putting out material years later (and with very little rework of the rules either). Sure, they are not as big as D&D, but then again they also do not have the name recognition or marketing of that brand either. The Realms would have been fine without an advanced timeline and had decades worth of stuff to publish just by detailing locales/groups/etc that existed since the grey box.
The problem is that (from what I read on here, and honestly believe) the novels out sell the RPG products (or produce more income for WotC any way). Novels more or less have to advance the timeline. A novel world can't remain static until they stop publishing novels. Novels also need to change something (doesn't have to be world shattering though), or someone, to make them a worthwhile venture. Then throw in the idea that people seem to really like to hear about important folks/organizations and you begin to see why they eventually have to have some kind of change. Add up the changes and eventually you arrive at a situation where a major event becomes possible/likely. Then you couple that with what Erik, and others, have said about the RSE's outselling the "normal" novels and you can see why it has to be done. Toss in edition changes (and needing some way to explain why the universe now functions differently) for flavor and you have all the justification you should ever need to explain why these happen. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 19:57:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
I see no need for either RSE's nor the "advancement of the timeline" and think that in and of itself was a mistake from the beginning. My best example as to why the advancement of the timeline and RSE's are not needed is the Call of Cthulhu game, where the setting is the very defined 1920s (by default, you can play in other historical epochs). Yet, even with those limitations, Chaosium is still in business and still putting out material years later (and with very little rework of the rules either). Sure, they are not as big as D&D, but then again they also do not have the name recognition or marketing of that brand either. The Realms would have been fine without an advanced timeline and had decades worth of stuff to publish just by detailing locales/groups/etc that existed since the grey box.
Well, I can definitely see your point here, but two things:
1) Call of Cthulhu doesn't have an ongoing novel release schedule. While H.P. Lovecraft wrote a lot of Mythos stuff and there have been imitators and heritors since, you don't have dozens of authors who are specifically producing novels to go along with and promote the game.
2) When Ed sold the Realms in the first place, he specifically planned on it being an evolving, dynamic world wherein things would change and grow. To have a static setting would be to undermine his intention and the strength of the setting, which is precisely that things continue to evolve and grow.
The Forgotten Realms is not an easy horse to ride. It takes constant maintenance on the part of the writers, editors, and designers, and it takes a certain willingness to accept change and role with new innovations. Absolutely you're not going to like everything that happens, and lots of events you're going to say "I could've done that better."[1] But you wouldn't stick with the setting if you weren't willing to do that.
Cheers
[1] I should also say that if you have this "I could've done that better" reaction often, then you should do it. Write your own stories with your own characters and your own plots in your own setting, then see about publishing them. That's how I got writing, and a lot of the endings I disagreed with were actually in Forgotten Realms novels. |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 21:04:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
My problem with RSEs is not on their number, but on the way they are presented---some of them make little to no sense at all.
See, I don't get that. I've never read an RSE that didn't make sense in at least some way--or was at least plausible, based on the piece-meal information I had about that particular part of the setting.
Can you give me an example--pick an RSE and tell me how it makes "little to no sense at all"?
Snipped!
Not gonna say the spellplague ....promise, cause if you buy what caused it , it is totally, 100% plausible.
The event that makes utterly 0% sense to me, and not one person yet has presented an arguement i have seen to explain how Mystra(and through those events Azuth) was murderd on her home court.
Shar starts dancing....Azuth get mesmerized(or all hormoned up) drops his ....Mystra gets disgusted and....heres the kicker......Turns her back on Shar and Cyric...which allows Cyric to clock her with Azuths's staff? Wasnt that staff magical? Wasn't she the Mother of all magic? No way she doesnt feel that thing coming her way....among all the other things wrong with that scene...
But like I said, If you think all that is possible, everything else is highly plausible. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 24 Jan 2011 21:12:44 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 22:46:38
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Im goint to hate my self for saying this, but maybe it was all part of the tablets of fate, and therefore something that no matter what or how, it was goin to happen. Just like the old norse gods. They knew that some day amageddon was going to happen, but insead of trying to prevent it, which they knew they could not, they prepared. Maybe Mystra knew she was going to be back-stabed all along, and just waited around and for it???
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 23:28:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Im goint to hate my self for saying this, but maybe it was all part of the tablets of fate, and therefore something that no matter what or how, it was goin to happen. Just like the old norse gods. They knew that some day amageddon was going to happen, but insead of trying to prevent it, which they knew they could not, they prepared. Maybe Mystra knew she was going to be back-stabed all along, and just waited around and for it???
Like Mystral with Karsus? Maybe once, but twice not likely. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 23:42:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Im goint to hate my self for saying this, but maybe it was all part of the tablets of fate, and therefore something that no matter what or how, it was goin to happen. Just like the old norse gods. They knew that some day amageddon was going to happen, but insead of trying to prevent it, which they knew they could not, they prepared. Maybe Mystra knew she was going to be back-stabed all along, and just waited around and for it???
Like Mystral with Karsus? Maybe once, but twice not likely.
I said this once and I'd say it again---she was infected by an unknown virus that is impervious even to Wooly and Sage's anti-virus softwares. 
Seriously, I don't mind RSEs that much. Heh, I like most of them. For those that don't appeal to me, I simply ignore---as much as I can. I can't hate the whole if there are some good parts that are salvaged. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 00:21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I for one am optimistic about the future of FR fiction. (I am, of course, a little biased!)
Please forgive me, I've never heard of you but as i said, I've avoided the Realms since 3e. What works have you written?
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If anything, the practice of limiting the impact of RSEs at the end of a RSE novel/trilogy seems to have been a tactic to PRESERVE canon/continuity/setting, rather than damage it. RSE novels tended to have a really vast scope and small impact--like something really big COULD happen, but the actual results were fairly small.
Yeah, this is a good point. The Horde was an early example of this, as was the discovery of Maztica.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
A few SPOILERS in my examples:
For example, if you're like me you got the sense during the Avatar trilogy that the Time of Troubles *could have* ended with serious craziness going down: with all the gods being dead and a radically different Realms, perhaps. As it was, you got a few dead gods (Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul were the big ones), one new god (Cyric), and one modified god (Mystra). I know there were changes, and we hardcore fans/sages can document them, but by and large, continuity remained intact. The Realms were still the Realms.
There is some value to this point. The big problem was killing Mystra and Bane, IMO. Both became major characters in the Avatar novels, and were missed because really, few of the other Realms Gods had as of yet made any impact on the readers.
After all, the ToT occurred pretty soon after the initial FR release. The wonderful grey boxed set came out in 1987. Barely two years later, in 1989, the Avatar series came out and reworked the pantheon.
Bane and Msytra, we barely know ye.
It didn't help that Cyric was extremely lame as a god, especially compared to how cool he had been as a mortal character.
Anyway, that's what I mean by lack of focus and inconsistency. If the Realms were cement, it would not have had time to set before kids started shoving thier hands and feet into it to leave thier mark, messing over each others name so many times that when it does set, instead of a smooth patch of sidewalk with a few handprints or names, we have a forzen sea of harsh, uneven peaks and valleys.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Why do RSEs happen? Basically, it's to move product, and also to keep the setting alive and moving. If it's allowed to stagnate, it stops bringing in funds, and it stops existing as a published setting. And to me, at least, it stops being interesting: I want to see stories happening in the Realms, and in order for a story to be told, SOMETHING HAS TO HAPPEN.
The scope of that happening can vary, of course--I personally am very happy with small scale, more personal stories. And generally speaking,
Well, the best FR novels didn't have RSEs. Neither The Wyvern's Spur nor Elfshadow, my two favorite FR novels, both lacked any sort of RSE.
Salvatore's books were, as far as I can tell, by far the best selling Realms novels and I don't think any of his work counts as Realms Shattering. I can't claim to love most of his stuff, but I did like his first two trilogies.
So, while I'm sure there was a perception by the FR editors that RSEs sold, I don't think that was an accurate perception. I think well told stories would have been a bigger draw.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
it seems like the FR books WotC has been putting out recently (for the 4e FR) have been firmly grounded in the personal. I haven't seen the procession of RSEs that dominated the 3e era, but rather novels that don't change the world that much, but do major things to their characters.
Well, the Spellplague appears to have so reworked the Realms that there is no more Realms to be shattered, right? So that rather makes sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
P.S. Selune and Shar never stopped being arch-enemies. That Shar is also Mystra's arch-enemy dates back to the creation story of the Realms (i.e. Mystra being their "daughter" god, that nurtures the fledgling world). But basically, as a force of entropy and nihilism, Shar is EVERYONE's arch-enemy.
That goes back to F&A. Doesn't pre-date it. Beyond that, Shar as some sort of Realmsian version of Greyhawk's Tharizdun has no real precedent in Realms lore.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
My problem with RSEs is not on their number, but on the way they are presented---some of them make little to no sense at all.
See, I don't get that. I've never read an RSE that didn't make sense in at least some way--or was at least plausible, based on the piece-meal information I had about that particular part of the setting.
Can you give me an example--pick an RSE and tell me how it makes "little to no sense at all"?
The sudden appearence of the shadoweave. It was a good idea when it was a unique, interesting aspect of Birthright, importing it into the Realms was a bad idea with no precedents. Perhaps that doesn't fit the defintion of an RSE.
Mystra being killed made no sense, as others have pointed out.
Mystra's death causing the Spellplague makes no sense (the Chosen existed specifically to prevent such a catastrophy).
The appearence of the city of Shade made no sense.
Banes return made no sense. Fortunately that one is easy to ignore, when I get there (my campaign is in late 1368 still) Xvim simply assumed his dad's name to make consolidating the Church easier.
Basically the myriad events that appeared out of no where with no foreshadowing are bad. Especially since the foreshadowing threads that do exist in previous product are usually left dangling...
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
As a contrast to Paul’s (GMWestermeyer) thesis/summary of the state of how the Realms have been presented over the years, I’d love if Phil Athans could review and respond to his comments, as Phil’s was the guiding hand on the novel side of the Realms for some time.
Anyone know how to get a hold of Phil?
Yikes, apparently someone does remember me, or knows me from the KODT forums. I'm sorry Mr_Miscellany, I don't recall you, different username then i would have known you by?
Regardless, I agree, it would be interesting to hear from Phil Athans. I've never had any contact with him, I admit I may be biased by my friendly contacts with Ed Greenwood, Steven Schend, and Eric Boyd. I really liked their FR stuff - especially Steven and Eric who share my fetish for obsessive continuity. :)
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 00:22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
My main criteria when judging a FR event (or any event in any setting) is: 1) does it make a good story? 2) does it "ring true" to the setting? 3) is it cool, rather than stupid?
This accurately sums up how I feel about the concept of an RSE.
I've said before that although I'm unlikely to incorporate into my game, most of the changes that have occurred because of an RSE in the official setting, doesn't necessarily mean that I dislike what has come about as a result of a setting-changing-event. Mostly, it is simply because the near 20+ year established lore of my Realms, has become some integral to the way that I run my games, that altering it to fit official changes, has become almost impossible. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 00:38:20
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Well, the best FR novels didn't have RSEs. Neither The Wyvern's Spur nor Elfshadow, my two favorite FR novels, both lacked any sort of RSE.
You should qualify this statement. Especially if you haven't read ALL of the Realms novels published, which it sounds like you haven't. Your thoughts on which are the best novels are certainly not held by everyone.
As for the RSE's, I agree with Erik's point of view on what makes a good RSE and why they are necessary. You can't have a static setting for too long. Movement has to happen to keep people interested. The thing that I think gets lost on publishers though, is that a moving timeline doesn't mean that EVERY novel needs to be current to that timeline. I am sure all of us here would love to see some stories written in FR's past. Heck, it doesn't even have to be the ancient past. Look at Ed's Knights of Myth Drannor novels. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 00:45:28
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| I second that notion about sticking to the present timeline. While moving forward is certainly a good move, story-wise, looking back once in a while isn't a bad thing either. And I don't just refer to mere flashbacks, as many novels in the current timeline are wont to do. The past has as much potential as the present. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 00:50:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Well, the best FR novels didn't have RSEs. Neither The Wyvern's Spur nor Elfshadow, my two favorite FR novels, both lacked any sort of RSE.
You should qualify this statement. Especially if you haven't read ALL of the Realms novels published, which it sounds like you haven't. Your thoughts on which are the best novels are certainly not held by everyone.
As for the RSE's, I agree with Erik's point of view on what makes a good RSE and why they are necessary. You can't have a static setting for too long. Movement has to happen to keep people interested. The thing that I think gets lost on publishers though, is that a moving timeline doesn't mean that EVERY novel needs to be current to that timeline. I am sure all of us here would love to see some stories written in FR's past. Heck, it doesn't even have to be the ancient past. Look at Ed's Knights of Myth Drannor novels.
<shrug> My opinion is my opinion, who elses? I have not read every FR novel, but I've read very many. My opinion isn't defintive, but I do write (for pay) a review column for fantasy novels, I know the genre pretty well. Though I am not a professional literary reviewer, I readily admit. By profession, I am a military historian.
Of course, the defintion of RSE matters here. The dwarves recovering Mithril Hall, for example, is not an RSE. Deities dying, entire countries disappearing, those are RSEs. Azoun finally dying, even if he is fighting a dragon? Not an RSE.
The RSE proponents too often equate dislike of RSEs with a desire for a static setting, the mirror image of the over-reaction anti-RSE folks have when they assume all change is catastrophic.
I'm a huge fan of a dynamic, changing Realms. Just count me out when deities are getting slaughtered, or the entire world is reshaped for no good reason. ;)
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 01:09:05
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Well, the best FR novels didn't have RSEs. Neither The Wyvern's Spur nor Elfshadow, my two favorite FR novels, both lacked any sort of RSE.
You should qualify this statement. Especially if you haven't read ALL of the Realms novels published, which it sounds like you haven't. Your thoughts on which are the best novels are certainly not held by everyone.
As for the RSE's, I agree with Erik's point of view on what makes a good RSE and why they are necessary. You can't have a static setting for too long. Movement has to happen to keep people interested. The thing that I think gets lost on publishers though, is that a moving timeline doesn't mean that EVERY novel needs to be current to that timeline. I am sure all of us here would love to see some stories written in FR's past. Heck, it doesn't even have to be the ancient past. Look at Ed's Knights of Myth Drannor novels.
<shrug> My opinion is my opinion, who elses? I have not read every FR novel, but I've read very many. My opinion isn't defintive, but I do write (for pay) a review column for fantasy novels, I know the genre pretty well. Though I am not a professional literary reviewer, I readily admit. By profession, I am a military historian.
Of course, the defintion of RSE matters here. The dwarves recovering Mithril Hall, for example, is not an RSE. Deities dying, entire countries disappearing, those are RSEs. Azoun finally dying, even if he is fighting a dragon? Not an RSE.
The RSE proponents too often equate dislike of RSEs with a desire for a static setting, the mirror image of the over-reaction anti-RSE folks have when they assume all change is catastrophic.
I'm a huge fan of a dynamic, changing Realms. Just count me out when deities are getting slaughtered, or the entire world is reshaped for no good reason. ;)
Sorry if I made it seem like your opinion was wrong or anything. I wasn't trying to imply that. I just wanted to be clear that it's not an opinion shared by everyone. |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 01:29:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Sorry if I made it seem like your opinion was wrong or anything. I wasn't trying to imply that. I just wanted to be clear that it's not an opinion shared by everyone.
True. But remember, while taste is individual and cannot be argued, quality generally can be judged objectively.
For example, King's Gunslinger series is objectively a high quality bit of writing. But despite my attempts to enjoy it, it simply is not to my taste.
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 02:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Please forgive me, I've never heard of you but as i said, I've avoided the Realms since 3e. What works have you written?
It's not relevant to the discussion at hand, but I've published three FR novels (2 in 3e, 1 in 4e), and my fourth one is coming out in September. Go check out my bibliography on my blog for a complete listing, if you're really curious: http://eriksdb.livejournal.com/111591.html
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The big problem was killing Mystra and Bane, IMO. Both became major characters in the Avatar novels, and were missed because really, few of the other Realms Gods had as of yet made any impact on the readers.
After all, the ToT occurred pretty soon after the initial FR release. The wonderful grey boxed set came out in 1987. Barely two years later, in 1989, the Avatar series came out and reworked the pantheon.
Bane and Msytra, we barely know ye.
Well, Mystra hardly even broke continuity, and while Bane was indeed technically dead for about a decade in RL, he came back for 3e. So I don't particularly feel this way. I think Bane was like *the* villain of the original Realms, and so they wanted to move him aside to let some other BBEGs through.
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It didn't help that Cyric was extremely lame as a god, especially compared to how cool he had been as a mortal character.
I'm not sure what you mean by "extremely lame" (or what about Cyric causes him to earn that description in your estimation), but ultimately, to each his own. You'll have to take that particular issue (the Prince of Lies) up with Jeff Grubb and Ed.
I have no real strong opinion on Cyric one way or another.
quote:
Anyway, that's what I mean by lack of focus and inconsistency. If the Realms were cement, it would not have had time to set before kids started shoving thier hands and feet into it to leave thier mark, messing over each others name so many times that when it does set, instead of a smooth patch of sidewalk with a few handprints or names, we have a forzen sea of harsh, uneven peaks and valleys.
See here's the thing: if only a single person were working on the Realms (such as, if Ed were writing it all himself) or maybe just a couple people, then you'd get that smooth sidewalk with handprints. However, the Realms was not conceived originally to be a sandbox with only one gamer. In selling the setting to TSR and thence to WotC, Ed made it clear that he wanted lots of people with lots of different opinions and visions playing in his sandbox. Hence the reason you get lots of peaks and valleys and a lot of messy things that don't necessarily make a lot of sense.
And for me, that's WAY more interesting as a setting than one that doesn't allow for a multitude of opinion or a variety of stories.
It should be noted that as a sandbox, the Realms has something of a revolving door. Designers and authors come and go, and they do different things and have different priorities than the last generation. It would be awesome to have one person do everything forever in a setting as big and lovely as the Realms--but we need lots of people with lots of ideas in the Realms. People move on, have families, get interested in different things--but the Realms remains.
If you want a single vision setting, go read Wheel of Time or Song of Ice and Fire (in fact, go read Song of Ice and Fire, because if you haven't done that, you're missing out) or any one of a thousand fantasy series with a single author writing in a single world. The Realms is something different--it THRIVES on multiple ideas and opinions. And I think that's what makes it special and worth reading/writing.
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So, while I'm sure there was a perception by the FR editors that RSEs sold, I don't think that was an accurate perception. I think well told stories would have been a bigger draw.
Please excuse me if I gave the wrong impression--I'm not talking about *quality* of stories. I'm talking about hard sales numbers. As it bears out, RSE is a great marketing tool, one that drives up sales of novels.
As for whether RAS's novels are RSE or not, it depends on your definition of a RSE. I personally don't see them as such mostly (though Siege of Darkness had a pretty big war, the various appearances of the Crystal Shard made waves, The Hunter's Blades was a pretty big deal in the FR, and the Transitions series definitely shook things up).
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Well, the Spellplague appears to have so reworked the Realms that there is no more Realms to be shattered, right? So that rather makes sense.
I'm sure you didn't mean that as a low-blow, so I'll treat it with the benefit of the doubt. There certainly are some people who feel the Realms no longer exists (to which I say, "what then is the point of wasting your time on a messageboard about it?"). I absolutely do not think this. The 4e FR are still the FR. The Spellplague broke 10% of the setting and reworked it in a pretty serious way. The other 90% is all still there and useful.
As someone who has written and designed in both the 3e and 4e FR, I honestly do not find it all that different or inaccessible.
As for these RSEs that don't make sense to you, thank you for the list. I think we're talking about different things when we say "don't make sense." What I mean is, "are logically impossible based on the canon and mechanics of the world." What I'm hearing you say when you say "don't make sense" is "don't make sense TO ME." And I can totally understand that when things happen in a setting you know and love that you don't like, they might seem out of the blue. But that doesn't mean they *don't make sense.*
(Does what I'm saying make sense?)
To address a couple of them:
quote:
The sudden appearence of the shadoweave. It was a good idea when it was a unique, interesting aspect of Birthright, importing it into the Realms was a bad idea with no precedents. Perhaps that doesn't fit the defintion of an RSE.
How was that a bad idea? I for one love the shadow weave and the idea of Shar having her own source of magic untouchable by the other gods. It makes perfect sense for her divine purpose.
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Mystra being killed made no sense, as others have pointed out.
Actually, Red Walker pointed out that it was extremely plausible--assuming you got behind all the premises, which is a little iffy. Though, as she is the FR deity who has been killed the most times throughout history, I think it's not only plausible that Mystra bit the bullet, but that it was really only a matter of time.
As for the nature of her death, we just don't know that. We have one hazy stylized vision, divinely given, which is probably loaded with allegorical meaning. I say this without meaning offense to anyone, but interpreting that particular vision literally is like interpreting any religious text literally: problematic.
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Mystra's death causing the Spellplague makes no sense (the Chosen existed specifically to prevent such a catastrophy).
We don't really know much about what happened here--certainly not enough to say it made no sense. Sure, what we *know* might be lacking in sense, but we just don't have all the pieces to make that kind of judgment.
All we know is Mystra perished in a way that had never happened before, on a scope never before touched upon in the canon. It's entirely possible the Chosen could not have prevented such an event, and it's entirely possible that they just haven't yet managed to piece Mystra back together. That might very well happen. We just don't know.
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The appearence of the city of Shade made no sense.
You don't think it's plausible that a city of Netheril escaped Karsus's Folly into the plane of Shadow? Considering how powerful the Netherese were, I find that very plausible.
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Banes return made no sense. Fortunately that one is easy to ignore, when I get there (my campaign is in late 1368 still) Xvim simply assumed his dad's name to make consolidating the Church easier.
I would have liked to see the where and how of this return as well, but again, I find it very plausible that exactly the same thing as is printed in the FRCS (that Bane was waiting to reincarnate through Xvim) could have happened. I mean, even in RL mythology, gods do that all the time--reincarnate themselves through their children, or mortals, or even objects. Mystra did that basically twice (and maybe a third time for 4e--who knows?)--so why can't Bane?
That said, I find your explanation extremely plausible as well. More power to you!
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Basically the myriad events that appeared out of no where with no foreshadowing are bad. Especially since the foreshadowing threads that do exist in previous product are usually left dangling...
I have to agree with you there--I do like the foreshadowing. It can't always be done, however, simply because of the revolving door as regards editorial control of the Realms (as I stated above).
Maybe this is your definition of "does it make sense?" -- as in, "is it pre-established and foreshadowed?" I.e., firmly grounded in previous lore.
The problem here is that sometimes you have neat and innovative ideas that people didn't think of before. Ed has mentioned this in the past, wherein designers surprise him with new ideas that he couldn't foreshadow, because he'd never dreamed of those things.
quote:
Anyone know how to get a hold of Phil?
You can find Phil's blog on google, and contact him through that. He doesn't participate (directly or AFAIK indirectly) on Candlekeep, which I think may be a result of people being quite unnecessarily rude to him in the past over the Internet. I don't want to say more than that, except to note that he is a very, very nice guy and very approachable, and I wish you luck getting in touch with him. I think he'll make your day better.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 02:45:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
As for the RSE's, I agree with Erik's point of view on what makes a good RSE and why they are necessary. You can't have a static setting for too long. Movement has to happen to keep people interested. The thing that I think gets lost on publishers though, is that a moving timeline doesn't mean that EVERY novel needs to be current to that timeline. I am sure all of us here would love to see some stories written in FR's past. Heck, it doesn't even have to be the ancient past. Look at Ed's Knights of Myth Drannor novels.
Count me in agreement that there needs to be wiggle room in where in the timeline a novel is set. There aren't many good reasons to not have novels set in the past. I know they have a larger budget, but Star Wars manages to have novels set all over their timeline that spans about 4000 years. I do see one potential roadblock (well, more like stumbling block) is that the game used to work differently at different points in the timeline and that somehow has to be accounted for. Beyond that, I see no reason why we can't have new novels about Old Netheril, The Manshoon Wars, Harper exploits down through the centuries, etc.
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 02:58:46
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| The history of the RPG market, I believe, shows that nothing has been proved to be more corrosive and destructive to a game setting than allowing the published timeline in the game materials to advance, a single second, ever. It always alienates fans, obsoletes existing setting material, makes it a pain to reconcile new setting material with existing campaigns, and creates continuity that makes it difficult to bring in new people. What looked like a reasonable idea in 1987 looks to me, now, as a mistake that should be repented; the only place a game setting should ever be dynamic is in an individual DM's campaign, never in the published material. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 03:21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by see
The history of the RPG market, I believe, shows that nothing has been proved to be more corrosive and destructive to a game setting than allowing the published timeline in the game materials to advance, a single second, ever. It always alienates fans, obsoletes existing setting material, makes it a pain to reconcile new setting material with existing campaigns, and creates continuity that makes it difficult to bring in new people. What looked like a reasonable idea in 1987 looks to me, now, as a mistake that should be repented; the only place a game setting should ever be dynamic is in an individual DM's campaign, never in the published material.
That's great, but you need to square that with novels bringing in more money than the RPG (or at least that's what I have seen said here numerous times). Novels, by their nature, have to advance things. Besides, how does the timeline advancing force you to advance your timeline? No one is forcing you to do that and WotC doesn't send out the edition police to confiscate all old gaming material. Why are options a bad thing?
By the way, what do you mean it was a mistake that should be repented?
Without the novels, my interest in FR would be next to nothing (or non existant) and I know I am not the only one. My interest in anything D&D is rooted in the D&D miniatures game. I got interested in the game that spawned it (the RPG) and started looking into it and the various worlds to better understand the characters and creatures the minis were based on. I started reading Dragonlance novels and a few Eberron novels before settling on FR (and I've read close to 90 FR novels now). I own a few RPG books as well. I originally bought them to better understand the rules, but now I buy FR books for the setting info*. I would likely not be their customer if it weren't for my interest in the novels keeping me here.
*As a side note, I would like to thank whoever (I think it was Wooly or Sage) it was that pointed me towards Cloak and Dagger. There is lots of info to be found in that book that I now own a copy of. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Why so many Realms Shattering Events?
