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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29896 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2011 :  20:23:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Troll King IX

There seems to be a problem, my questions keep disappearing.



The problem is that you keep posting it. How many times do we have to delete your posts and ban you before you realize we're not going to allow your openly antagonistic and offensive posts?

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  01:39:13  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Troll King IX

There seems to be a problem, my questions keep disappearing.



The problem is that you keep posting it. How many times do we have to delete your posts and ban you before you realize we're not going to allow your openly antagonistic and offensive posts?

That, and the fact that he willingly chooses to disregard both the policy of the site's Code of Conduct, and the sensibilities/considerations of his fellow posters.

Apparently, this Troll King cares nothing for the fact that younglings might also be reading the perverse material he seeks to post here at Candlekeep.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  02:16:45  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

Hi Ed and THO!

I am not really fond of using gods in my fiction, but certain circumstances call for it. My gods have names that mortals know, and they have real names as well which only a very few beings have knowledge of... Do the gods of Toril have names other than what the mortals know?

Every beginning has an end.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29896 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  04:15:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Hi Ed and THO!

I am not really fond of using gods in my fiction, but certain circumstances call for it. My gods have names that mortals know, and they have real names as well which only a very few beings have knowledge of... Do the gods of Toril have names other than what the mortals know?



Indeed! Bane's real name is Ethel. That's why he's such a jerk, he's had to live with that name for all of these years.

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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
2104 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  04:26:08  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Hi Ed and THO!

I am not really fond of using gods in my fiction, but certain circumstances call for it. My gods have names that mortals know, and they have real names as well which only a very few beings have knowledge of... Do the gods of Toril have names other than what the mortals know?



Indeed! Bane's real name is Ethel. That's why he's such a jerk, he's had to live with that name for all of these years.



Are you sure it's not Sue you're thinking of?

There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  04:33:43  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

If I were Bane, I might feel and act the same.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  06:21:15  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
You know, it's almost comforting for me to remind folks that we're here to discuss Ed-lore, and not to get unintentionally side-tracked. It makes for a return to normalcy, that's been somewhat absent here of late.

Anyway, let's get back on track, eh?

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  07:23:59  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

Ed/THO:

Follow-up question: Does knowledge of their names grants someone certain privileges or advantage [i.e. binding a god; ensuring the god answers immediately when called by his/her real name]?

Every beginning has an end.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6194 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  11:40:03  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message
Knowledge of a deity's true name ... I would think if anything it would bind the mortal into the deity's service. Mortals cannot (individually) harm beings of such higher order in any way. Although they might inflict great harm indeed if they revealed that true name (voluntarily or otherwise) to other beings of divine stature. The named deity might be well aware of this fact and install whatever measures are necessary to prevent dissemination of this truth.

All this assumes that the true name of a deity is even comprehensible or pronounceable by a mortal. Perhaps a mortal mind simply cannot contain such a thing at all, or perhaps the knowledge can be understood but is impossible to communicate.

Finally, I suggest that the true names of deities might in fact be well known indeed, a sort of "open secret" everywhere they are present. It could be argued that dedicating your life to them, studying their holy writings, learning their truths, following their precepts, and becoming a priest in their service is a form of binding them (and the power they command) to your service. This might seem like an unbalanced sort of arrangement or even a sort of mutual double-binding, but gods possess vastly superior power and are not so easily bound as any mere fiend or elemental.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Sep 2011 11:45:19
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  12:32:51  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

I tend to concur that their real names might [or should be] impossible for mere mortals to utter, no matter how powerful the said mortals become. [Still waiting for Ed's reply...]

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 11 Sep 2011 12:44:33
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  15:52:44  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I tend to concur that their real names might [or should be] impossible for mere mortals to utter, no matter how powerful the said mortals become. [Still waiting for Ed's reply...]


Cyrix knew Midnight's real name and it didn't seem to do him much good. I think the first question to Ed is if Gods have true names in the same manner as devils and then if they have power-granting properties.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29896 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  16:41:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

You know, it's almost comforting for me to remind folks that we're here to discuss Ed-lore, and not to get unintentionally side-tracked. It makes for a return to normalcy, that's been somewhat absent here of late.

Anyway, let's get back on track, eh?



Can we get intentionally side-tracked, then?

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
29896 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  17:07:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
I just had a thought... When Mystryl died, she dumped her power into a human girl.

Mystra 1.0 dumped a lot of her power into a human girl, too, before Midnight came along and got the rest of that power.

We also know that Mystra 1.0 possessed a mortal woman and had a slew of daughters with her, daughters that contained part of Mystra's essence...

What if Mystryl did the same thing? It's possible that the nameless girl who became Mystra was either a daughter of or a descendant of Mystryl. For that matter, a lot of magical anamolies could be explained that way -- maybe all of the non-Seven Chosen are descendants of Mystryl. Maybe some other odd cases, like wild talents, incantatrices, and even spellfire wielders are all descendants of Mystryl.

I might be wrong, but it's an interesting idea, thinks I.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13445 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  17:21:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
In some of my 'deep secrets' musings in this thread and others, I have had some indication by 'persons in the know' (can't remember the specifics... probably Ed via THO) that the artifact that is Mystra requires some sort of mortal connection. Exactly why and and how deep that connection must be has never been discussed, because it falls into that 'deep secrets' category. I am not sure if it has anything to do with her initial creation, or some rule imposed upon her later by Ao (or even something else).

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Indeed! Bane's real name is Ethel. That's why he's such a jerk, he's had to live with that name for all of these years.
Whats even worse is that Myrkul's other name is Fred.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  17:22:56  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
I put Dennis's question about deity names (and the comments by Ayrik and Azuth and Dennis's followup query) to Ed, and he sent me this:

I'm not real fond of using deities directly in fiction, either, but TSR rushed to do so the moment the Realms saw print as a product line, and various authors have been doing so, and editors urging me to do so, ever since . . . so it seems a lot of readers want to see gods onstage, and this IS a service industry, so . . . :}
Yes, the deities of the Realms have "true," somewhat-secret names. I created them that way before there was a D&D game, and of course the early editions of D&D and AD&D had "truename" as a spell and a concept, both of which remain in Realmslore (as per the Realms agreement: changing a game rule, or edition, DOESN'T change "what happened already" [lore, history] in the Realms setting, though it may change how we see it/our understanding of what was previously reported).
Knowing a deity's truename gives you the power to instantly attract the deity's attention. In some very rare cases, in conjunction with you possessing particular artifacts ("the Univeral Nullifier, in the hands of a mortal!") and/or doing particular deeds/rituals ("Yes, Zeus, I'm burning your toenails in the Flame of Truth! Bwoohahahahah!") it gives you a limited measure of power over the deity or the ability to send the deity away/get them to honour a pre-existing pact or informal agreement.
Dennis, this doesn't mean they're compelled to answer, just that they've noticed the utterer of their name (among the ceaseless chorus of all worshippers uttering their various names, all the time). They may well choose to manifest, or speak, or send visions or dreams. Nor (except for the rare instances I've alluded to, above) does it give a mortal any "binding" of or over the god.
Yes, Ayrik, attentive thoughtful devotion to, and active worship of, the god leads a devout mortal ever-closer, over time, to "knowing" the true name of the deity (and knowing the deity's true nature and character, along with the name, which is the way an overwhelmed mortal mind manages to focus, to express and concentrate all they know of a deity's nature).
Now, you might well be able to convince me that someone who knows ALL the names a deity has ever been known by (a la Sir Arthur's classic NINE BILLION NAMES OF GOD) might gain some measure of control over the god . . .
But no, deities are essentially different in this respect from devils and demons, in which a Prime Material Plane summoner (who doesn't screw up!) can "control" such a creature for a certain time or number of acts.
Warning: press me for more details, and you'll be in NDA territory. ;}


So saith Ed. Who knows some things that lie ahead for all Realms readers and gamers. And of course is bound to silence. Guess someone knew his truename, had the right artifacts, and did the right rituals.
love to all,
THO
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  17:31:30  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

Thanks Ed and THO! I know Ed's truename, but I wasn't really sure if I used the right artifact nor did the right ritual.

Every beginning has an end.
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  17:33:40  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message
Ed & THO,

Can a deity ever be totally destroyed? A simple yea/nea answer works if NDA doesn't allow for elaboration.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  17:33:59  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Markustay, you recall correctly - - and Wooly, you tread into dangerous ground, you wise and insightful hamster, you!
(Which is a not so subtle way of saying you're on to something, both of you.)

And Kajehase, I don't believe I remembered to pass this on, yet, so: yes, Ed has read and enjoyed River King's Road, but Heaven's Needle is still in his almost-ceiling-high "must read soonish" pile. His many editing duties, blurbing books for friends and publishers, writing research, and library-day-job-related reading have combined to slow down his pleasure reading in recent months.

Speaking of which, * I * have an ever-growing pile of pleasure reading I should get back to!
love,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  17:38:29  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
Azuth, your question is one that TSR and later WotC designers and editors working on/in the Realms (including, of course, Ed) have discussed many times. The general concensus is: theoretically, yes. However, it's so difficult to do (in large part because a deity clings to some sort of existence, however "scattered and unconscious," able to rise again if conditions are right, even thousands of years later, so long as ONE MORTAL WORSHIPPER "believes" in them), that in practical terms, the answer has to be: no.
love,
THO
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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
2104 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  18:19:23  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

And Kajehase, I don't believe I remembered to pass this on, yet, so: yes, Ed has read and enjoyed River King's Road, but Heaven's Needle is still in his almost-ceiling-high "must read soonish" pile. His many editing duties, blurbing books for friends and publishers, writing research, and library-day-job-related reading have combined to slow down his pleasure reading in recent months.

Speaking of which, * I * have an ever-growing pile of pleasure reading I should get back to!
love,
THO




Many thanks for answering, THO. And I wonder... has anyone mentioned the concept of "taking some time off to recharge" to Ed?

There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13445 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  21:27:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hi again, all.
Azuth, your question is one that TSR and later WotC designers and editors working on/in the Realms (including, of course, Ed) have discussed many times. The general concensus is: theoretically, yes. However, it's so difficult to do (in large part because a deity clings to some sort of existence, however "scattered and unconscious," able to rise again if conditions are right, even thousands of years later, so long as ONE MORTAL WORSHIPPER "believes" in them), that in practical terms, the answer has to be: no.
love,
THO
Which means, theoretically, that no being can ever truly be destroyed, since even the slightest memory of said being may later inspire worship, and therefor cause a 'posthumous apotheosis' (even centuries later).

Which gives me an idea for a question: Are there any FR cases of such - a being that 'ascended' post-death, and how would most mortals feel about being pulled from their 'normal afterlife', to be given a job and so much to care for? Would it depend upon the individual?

I ask this because death is supposed to be the "eternal rest", and being a deity, with all its intrigues and responsibilities, doesn't sound very restful. To me, its kinda like wanting to be President - what sort of idiot would want that?

Give me obscurity any day.

I suppose we could stretch this question to include beings 'pulled back' to the Prime Material, for whatever reasons, and being forced to stay against their will (in other words, not just a simple question-answering spell). Mummies come to mind (if disturbed, traditionally), but there are many other in D&D/fantasy.

The scene with Jak at the end of Paul Kemp's 1st Erevis Cale novel makes me think this sort of thing wouldn't be all that desirable to most folks.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Sep 2011 21:29:56
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2011 :  00:10:54  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hi again, all.
Azuth, your question is one that TSR and later WotC designers and editors working on/in the Realms (including, of course, Ed) have discussed many times. The general concensus is: theoretically, yes. However, it's so difficult to do (in large part because a deity clings to some sort of existence, however "scattered and unconscious," able to rise again if conditions are right, even thousands of years later, so long as ONE MORTAL WORSHIPPER "believes" in them), that in practical terms, the answer has to be: no.
love,
THO
Which means, theoretically, that no being can ever truly be destroyed, since even the slightest memory of said being may later inspire worship, and therefor cause a 'posthumous apotheosis' (even centuries later).

Which gives me an idea for a question: Are there any FR cases of such - a being that 'ascended' post-death, and how would most mortals feel about being pulled from their 'normal afterlife', to be given a job and so much to care for? Would it depend upon the individual?

I ask this because death is supposed to be the "eternal rest", and being a deity, with all its intrigues and responsibilities, doesn't sound very restful. To me, its kinda like wanting to be President - what sort of idiot would want that?

Give me obscurity any day.

I suppose we could stretch this question to include beings 'pulled back' to the Prime Material, for whatever reasons, and being forced to stay against their will (in other words, not just a simple question-answering spell). Mummies come to mind (if disturbed, traditionally), but there are many other in D&D/fantasy.

The scene with Jak at the end of Paul Kemp's 1st Erevis Cale novel makes me think this sort of thing wouldn't be all that desirable to most folks.


That's an interesting extrapolation, but I'm not sure that THO meant to go quite that far (i.e. any being, any soul, is indestructible if rooted in a single belief).

After all, don't souls who end up dissolving in the Wall of the Faithless get destroyed? Or people who have been killed by certain items (e.g. the Crescent Blade, when it was still infected by Wendonai's energies)? Or those wretched spheres of annihilation?

Actually, I can't remember if the last one destroys souls, but I'm pretty sure there have been precedents in lore for various souls having been destroyed.

4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2011 :  00:40:23  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Therise, Markustay, and The Hooded One



<snipped out for space's sake>

I think it important to remember the difference between a divine being and a mortal. My thoughts are that once Cyric and Midnight ascended to divinity, their "souls" became the "divine type" in that they could never truly be killed. While Mystra and her predecessor were "killed" they were reborn, as it were, into similar deities. This is one area I think the authors unquestionably got it "right" in the original Avatar Trilogy. Ao's Balance is pivotal to a "normal" game. Selūne is good/Shar is evil. Torm is good, Bane is evil. Ilmater good, Loviatar evil. That's why I see Eilistraee's destruction as so important; it removes any semblence of balance from the Drow Pantheon. One could argue that Lolth is just a Chaotic Evil god in the Elven Pantheon, and that any elf can worship her. Since the novels that deal with the afterlife focus almost exclusively on humans, it's not really known what Lolth would do if presented with a wicked, chaotic, malevolent sun elf's soul. Ao's decree said that the gods must serve their worshippers, and he didn't restrict that only to human gods. Lolth, much like Cyric, may think or have thought she was exempt, but that's hardly true given her own silence during the Time of Troubles.

It is for this reason that I believe we have "house rules" but with respect to the published works, consistency would be pretty important were I the editor. Which is a long way of bringing me to my next question for Ed & Tho...


As deities absorb or lose aspects of their portfolios, can their "alignments" change? If Lolth has the portfolio of all Drow, doesn't that mean she's absorbed Eilistraee and Vheraun? Wouldn't that have an impact on her CE alignment or her "allowed alignments" under the gaming system?


Thanks much!


Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2011 :  01:47:51  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

You know, it's almost comforting for me to remind folks that we're here to discuss Ed-lore, and not to get unintentionally side-tracked. It makes for a return to normalcy, that's been somewhat absent here of late.

Anyway, let's get back on track, eh?



Can we get intentionally side-tracked, then?

Don't you do everything intentionally anyway?

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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2011 :  01:55:08  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

What if Mystryl did the same thing? It's possible that the nameless girl who became Mystra was either a daughter of or a descendant of Mystryl. For that matter, a lot of magical anamolies could be explained that way -- maybe all of the non-Seven Chosen are descendants of Mystryl. Maybe some other odd cases, like wild talents, incantatrices, and even spellfire wielders are all descendants of Mystryl.
I've speculated previously that some of the possible "Chosen" of Mystryl may in fact have been these magical anomalies.

As Ed has said in the past, the reality of Mystryl having Chosen is supposedly "a secret of the Realms that has been sitting in plain sight for lo these many years." What if these anomalies become the original templates for how the Chosen of Mystra were to work, later with the rise of Mystra?

Interestingly, perhaps the whole concept of the Seven "Sisters" isn't something that's a wholly new invention in the faith of magical mysteries either. Maybe there were "Seven" magical anomalies of Mystryl as well.

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