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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2011 :  01:58:21  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth

Ed & THO,

Can a deity ever be totally destroyed? A simple yea/nea answer works if NDA doesn't allow for elaboration.

I'll also add, for your reading pleasure, past tidbits from Ed on the subject of deity-death:-

"January 25, 2005: Hello, all. Ed answers Elf_Friend:

Regarding dead gods: mortals of Faerûn don’t know the true “current body count,” or where the residue of the divine essence of a dead god lies.

In part, this is because it’s very hard for a god to truly die unless very carefully destroyed by another god: otherwise, if some mortal of Faerûn still worships them or discovers them and starts worshipping them, later (even centuries later), they ‘rise’ again, albeit as almost powerless ghostly awarenesses (at their weakest).

The arguments among churches (about what god did what to which other god) confuse the average inhabitant of the Realms (who to believe?), but I’d say that among humans, most are aware that Bhaal, Iyachtu Xvim, Leira, and Myrkul are ‘dead.’ Only sages and some priests and wizards have even heard of, say, Karsus, and most folk accept that there are countless ‘godlings’ worshipped by various ‘cultists’ here and there across the Realms (from Savras and other half-remembered names to the beast-cults to “those dangerous folk who worship the skeletons of DRAGONS if ye can believe it, aye?”).

So some of them are dead and gone ‘forever’ (although one can then debate just how long ‘forever’ is, of course :}), but most are, as you say, “just dead, ready to be revived thru some epic act or worship.”

So saith Ed, Creator and Supreme Loremaster of the Realms. Also Champion Belcher of Colborne, I trow.

love to all,
THO"

Also:-

"So there’s constant worship going on for almost every divine being, rumored-to-be-divine being, half-forgotten and misremembered godlings... and even slain divine beings linger on as demigods or divine sparks that can “come back” if the right conditions occur. It’s hard to fall from the ranks of demigodhood, once attained: one simply becomes a weaker demigod. Mortals in the Realms are always whispering prayers to “forgotten” gods, in hopes that the grateful deity will give them a lot of aid, swiftly, either out of eagerness to have a new mortal worshipper to command, or simply because they hear and heed the prayer (where a more popular deity may miss or have scant regard for that one prayer, amid the deafening chorus of so many)."

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6196 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2011 :  02:16:21  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message
I'll shamelessly manhandle this deliberate distraction back onto topic by asking lovely Lady THO and Ed about how much motive will is possessed by zombies in the Realms*? That is, what exactly is the animating force which causes zombies to stupidly stumble around gurgling and rasping for brains?

* Zombies in the typical fantasy (and cheesy movie) context, not the technical term used by cognitive psychologists.

Is their motive force some sort of spirit-thing channeled into the corpse from a negative energy plane? Or is the original soul somehow recalled back by the Necromancer? If the latter, does it remain fully intact and conscious (and subjugated to a Necromancer), forced to witness and experience the horror of its existence ... or is it spiritually reformatted and lobotomized into an unhuman brainless thing? How conscious is an animated zombie?

I realize the topic of undead is not particularly Realms-centric, but the Realms does offer two unique quirks:

1) The Fugue Plane. Does a zombie's soul end up going there (again) when its corpse is destroyed? If so, can it keep on being yanked back from death to undeath any number of times, as long as there's a Necromancer and enough intact body parts still available? Would it still resume whatever afterlife it may have had before as a "faithful" (and do not the Faerûnian deities protect the souls of their faithful from such afterlife abductions)? Is the eternal soul forever tainted or damaged by serving zombie time? Can a soul dissolved into the Wall of Faithless be recalled back to the Realms so long as its original corpse is intact?

2) If undead are animated through supernatural (magical) means then are their populations decimated by what my group calls CWFEs (Critical Weave Failure Events; ie, Fall of Netheril, Time of Troubles, SpellPlague, etc)? Do CWFEs basically cause most of the undead (at least the lesser undead species) in the Realms to ... simply drop dead? Can stuff like wild magic or spellscarring randomly and inexplicably bestow sentience or life (or other power) onto an undead?

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Sep 2011 02:40:42
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2011 :  03:41:11  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
<ware ye: wise wisdom was snipped herein>



Having piqued my curiousity, Sage, I must now ask this question of Ed via THO:
The Frost Giants that worshipped a minor frost elemental in Price of Lies, despite their reverent and apparently multigenerational worship, failed to create a divine being. So, is there a threshold in which worship can create divinity? Or, perhaps, does it take a threshold before a favorable deity, perhaps Akadi in this case, starts to channel divine powers to the worshippers of intermediary agents, such as access to divine spells, et cetera?



Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6196 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2011 :  03:55:06  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message
Lurue - at least circa 1358DR, as presented in 2E FRA - had very few worshippers, perhaps only a fervent handful, and was simply grouped among all the other generic "minor beast cults" to save printing space. Nonetheless, even then she possessed considerable divine power (as a servant to Mielikki, I think), at least within her particular sylvan locality.

Conversely, there are others like Larloch who are described as being far more powerful than most Chosen or Exarchs, approximately rivalling a demi-power ... yet without drawing any faith energy from worshippers (unless you count his lich servitors, who really aren't very numerous in any event).

Consider also that Shar is certainly about as powerful as Mystra or Selûne or Tymora, yet in all likelihood her primarily underground worship would consist of far fewer worshippers than the many established churches dedicated to her sister goddesses; probably also of generally lower total experience levels if you prefer to count it that way. And yet she is not only able to prevail against them (against all of them combined, in fact), but she has sufficient power to destroy perhaps the most potent goddess of them all.

I think it's a qualitative threshold, not a quantifiable one. Power itself is a qualitative thing; power can be seen as a measure of how much one can influence, change, or control the environment ... certain divine "portfolios" are more suited to enjoy the advantages of this definition than are others.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Sep 2011 04:11:16
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2011 :  06:09:24  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message
Perhaps so, but did Lurue previously have a larger number of worshippers, perhaps elves? I suspect Shar has many worshippers, although a great many may be from fear. My question is centered on the ascension to divine power through worship; that is, is it even possible. Does thousands of people in Cormyr loving Azoun (IV) eventually grant him godhood? If it did, how would his portfolio be chosen? I believe this is why the caveat that Ao rules supreme and thus unchallenged in appointing or allowing divinity. He decreed that lack of worship can cause deities to fade away, but not the inverse. Thus, I await Ed's reply.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.

Edited by - Azuth on 12 Sep 2011 22:59:33
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2011 :  17:19:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
@Ayrik: I've come to the conclusion that 'life' (as we know it) requires THREE types of metaphysical force (Spirit, Soul, and Animus), and the lack of any one will result in undeath.

Typical zombies lack two - a spirit (the 'mind', if you will), and a soul (the eternal portion of all things), but retain the Animus (motive force). Improved Zombies ("Brains!") still have a spirit, since they are able to communicate (albeit not very fluently). The moral portion of a being resides in the soul, so without it, a creature is driven by its base desires (ie., hunger). Under normal circumstances, both the spirit(mind/persona) and soul (Lifeforce) leave the Material plane upon death, but occasionally all or some part of one (or both) gets 'trapped', which leads to several types of non-corporeal undead.

It is entirely possible for the ghost of a creature to run into its own zombie (not sure if its ever happened in FR, but it did happen in a Xanth novel, IIRC).

Just my 2¢ for what its worth; Ed may, of course, see things differently. My own hypothesis works within the (2e) rules-structure, based on Planescape and other sources (I merely renamed a few things to give it a more 'spiritual' feel).

quote:
Originally posted by Azuth

I think it important to remember the difference between a divine being and a mortal. My thoughts are that once Cyric and Midnight ascended to divinity, their "souls" became the "divine type"... <snip>
Interesting... I hadn't thought of that. In game terms, that means not just the physical body of a person can acquire a template, but so can their soul.

VERY interesting line of reasoning... could explain a lot - Vampires, for instance, may be a case of both.

Still, all beings can ascend (even non-thinking ones, AFAIK), and can do so long after death, which means there is ALWAYS a way of bringing something back (although one may argue that if Dender or Kezef devour the soul, or it falls into the River Styx, etc, it is annihilated, and the being 'returned' after such a final destruction is really a copy created from the memories of the ones that brought it back).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe

Netherlands
423 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2011 :  21:15:33  Show Profile  Visit Tyranthraxus's Homepage  Click to see Tyranthraxus's MSN Messenger address Send Tyranthraxus a Private Message
Dear Ed and THO,

The last known Magister is Noume'a. Is she still around in the post-Spellplague era?

I'm currently reading Elminster: The Making of a Mage and I was wondering who the Magister is El met in Hastarl. Is it perhaps Azuth (before achieving a divine status), or will his identity will be revealed later on the novel? I haven't finished reading it yet so I apologize if it's a stupid question. Great novel BTW, I always wondered about El's past .
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2011 :  21:34:46  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message
I THINK I remember the Magister in MAKING OF A being identified before, here at the Keep (as in, someone asked and Ed answered), but I can't find it...sorry...
BB
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2011 :  01:19:52  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus

Dear Ed and THO,

The last known Magister is Noume'a. Is she still around in the post-Spellplague era?

I'm currently reading Elminster: The Making of a Mage and I was wondering who the Magister is El met in Hastarl. Is it perhaps Azuth (before achieving a divine status), or will his identity will be revealed later on the novel? I haven't finished reading it yet so I apologize if it's a stupid question. Great novel BTW, I always wondered about El's past .



I'm almost certain it is not Azuth in Elminster: The Making of a Mage. I'm also pretty sure that the identity of the current Magister is NDA, and there isn't necessarily even a Magister at present given Mystra's...status. THO or Ed can verify NDA or not, I'm sure, but I'm fairly certain that's the current situation in the post-Spellplague Realms.
Cheers,

Azuth


Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe

Netherlands
423 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2011 :  01:40:40  Show Profile  Visit Tyranthraxus's Homepage  Click to see Tyranthraxus's MSN Messenger address Send Tyranthraxus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade

I THINK I remember the Magister in MAKING OF A being identified before, here at the Keep (as in, someone asked and Ed answered), but I can't find it...sorry...
BB



I did a quick search but I couldn't find as well. I have to admit my search fu isn't very good though. I'll try again tomorrow (it's a bit late over here right now).

quote:
Originally posted by Azuth



I'm almost certain it is not Azuth in Elminster: The Making of a Mage. I'm also pretty sure that the identity of the current Magister is NDA, and there isn't necessarily even a Magister at present given Mystra's...status. THO or Ed can verify NDA or not, I'm sure, but I'm fairly certain that's the current situation in the post-Spellplague Realms.
Cheers,

Azuth





Some of Mystra's chosen survived the Spellplague so there might be chance the Magister did as well.

I was afraid I'll bump into NDAs, but it never hurts to ask.
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2011 :  01:45:57  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus

quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade

I THINK I remember the Magister in MAKING OF A being identified before, here at the Keep (as in, someone asked and Ed answered), but I can't find it...sorry...
BB



I did a quick search but I couldn't find as well. I have to admit my search fu isn't very good though. I'll try again tomorrow (it's a bit late over here right now).

Some of Mystra's chosen survived the Spellplague so there might be chance the Magister did as well.

I was afraid I'll bump into NDAs, but it never hurts to ask.




I don't disagree about the Chosen: what you state is a proven fact. But I don't believe it's been explained what happens to the Magister as a position in the absence or uncertain absence of a goddess of magic. I'm more than happy to be proven wrong...I'll be hunting for a new body once all this 4E nonsense is over I'll join in on the query to Master Greenwood on the subject of the Magister's Fate in the "current" era.
Cheers,

Azuth


Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2887 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2011 :  02:11:42  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message
The Many Murders of Manshoon answers the question about the "Last" Magister. Realms of the Dead is the novel that story is in...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2011 :  02:23:26  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
Fellow scribes, we're meandering from the purpose of this scroll once again.

Please, if you must continue this branch of the current conversation, I suggest opening a new scroll and further exploring it therein.

Let's try to get back to just "Q&A" for and from Ed, eh?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4790 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2011 :  13:12:47  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus

Dear Ed and THO,

The last known Magister is Noume'a. Is she still around in the post-Spellplague era?

I'm currently reading Elminster: The Making of a Mage and I was wondering who the Magister is El met in Hastarl. Is it perhaps Azuth (before achieving a divine status), or will his identity will be revealed later on the novel? I haven't finished reading it yet so I apologize if it's a stupid question. Great novel BTW, I always wondered about El's past .



The Magister featured in "Making of a Mage" was Dorgon "Stonecloak" Heamiiolothtar who reigned from 177DR to 241DR - the longest Magister reign (at that time) since Azuth himself.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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momentspause
Acolyte

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2011 :  16:35:13  Show Profile Send momentspause a Private Message
Dear Ed and greetings all,

I'm going to go a bit old school here. In the Aurora's Catalog, it refers to the Bricksmen's Catalogue. There is precious little else mentioned, and probably for good reason :) But who or what are/were the Bricksmen? What role do they play in the cities, guilds, etc? I appreciate any tidbits and information the Sage may care to share. Thank you.

Sincerely,

M.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2011 :  16:51:44  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by momentspause

Dear Ed and greetings all,

I'm going to go a bit old school here. In the Aurora's Catalog, it refers to the Bricksmen's Catalogue. There is precious little else mentioned, and probably for good reason :) But who or what are/were the Bricksmen? What role do they play in the cities, guilds, etc? I appreciate any tidbits and information the Sage may care to share. Thank you.

Sincerely,

M.

I'm not sure whether Ed could actually answer that question, since it's not a tome he had any direct input on.

You may have more luck by querying those Lorelords who were actually responsible for those particular contributions.

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momentspause
Acolyte

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2011 :  17:21:42  Show Profile Send momentspause a Private Message
I bow to the wisdom and suggestion of the learned Sage. Thank you for that excellent idea. I'll see what I can dig up that way.

M.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2011 :  12:15:07  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
Hi, Ed and THO!

Is The Terraseer really the oldest being in Toril?

Did Aumvor and Ioualaum survive the Spellplague? Were they severely weakened? Have they recovered their strength? Or did they emerge from such cataclysm nearly unscathed?

Every beginning has an end.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2011 :  16:11:49  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all. Dennis, Ed tells me:

"Is The Terraseer really the oldest being in Toril?"
Reply: No. Who is? NDA.

"Did Aumvor and Ioualaum survive the Spellplague?"
Reply: Yes.

"Were they severely weakened? Have they recovered their strength? Or did they emerge from such cataclysm nearly unscathed?"
Replies: NDA, NDA, NDA.

Ed adds: Sorry, but you're just going to have to be patient on these matters. Authors at work, and so on.

love,
THO
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2011 :  16:49:39  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

At least I know now that the two survived. Thanks, THO and Ed.

Every beginning has an end.
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe

Netherlands
423 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2011 :  18:31:54  Show Profile  Visit Tyranthraxus's Homepage  Click to see Tyranthraxus's MSN Messenger address Send Tyranthraxus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus

Dear Ed and THO,

The last known Magister is Noume'a. Is she still around in the post-Spellplague era?

I'm currently reading Elminster: The Making of a Mage and I was wondering who the Magister is El met in Hastarl. Is it perhaps Azuth (before achieving a divine status), or will his identity will be revealed later on the novel? I haven't finished reading it yet so I apologize if it's a stupid question. Great novel BTW, I always wondered about El's past .



The Magister featured in "Making of a Mage" was Dorgon "Stonecloak" Heamiiolothtar who reigned from 177DR to 241DR - the longest Magister reign (at that time) since Azuth himself.

-- George Krashos




Thank you very much mr. Krashos! Maybe you, THO, or Ed can also answer my next Magister question. I recently got my hands on the Magister miniature by Ral Partha, the same person as on the cover of FR4 The Magister. Does he also have a name?

Thanks in advance.
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2011 :  18:41:38  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message
I can't remember the guy's name, but I KNOW he was specifically named and identified - - and has been discussed in the past.
Sage? Wooly? I seem to recall George Krashos talking about this once, here at the Keep.
BB
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29906 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2011 :  19:08:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Maxiladanarr Torstren may not be the most famous of Magisters, but his breeding program looks likely to have influences far beyond the strivings of most who have held the office of the Magister. He perished not by magic or the hand of a challenger, but buried in an avalance while he slept on a mountain ledge. Torstren is the black-bearded Magister pictured on the cover of the out-of-print publication FR4: The Magister.


Page 82, Secrets of the Magister.





(Edit: cast banish typo )

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Sep 2011 04:36:46
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe

USA
508 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2011 :  00:17:34  Show Profile  Send Rhewtani an AOL message Send Rhewtani a Private Message
Ok, so I have a meta-chrono-geographical question. Since Baker rewrote Aesperus (essentially turning his blurb in the Moonsea supplement into an incorrect rumor) and created Thentur (existing roughly in the 1000s), what sort of NDA exists over the Moonsea northeast? How deep and wide is it?

Personally, I've theorized that the collapse and deepening of the Hulburg bay resulting from the spellplague also had something to do with Aesperus's magics down there and also possibly having something to do with its role in Pools of Darkness, as well. Anyways...

In that I'm working on a Hulburg campaign for 1351 to 1357 (with a PC having been married to Amali Hulmaster), I'm trying to figure out the reason. What sort of dungeons exist? What would delvers be prone to find in them? If I can't get this for the Thentur region, what about further west or east? The Moonsea folk are considered a mix of vikings turned bolsheviks, who always rebuild and never surrender.



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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2011 :  02:10:13  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

"Is The Terraseer really the oldest being in Toril?"
Reply: No. Who is? NDA.
I thought it was Toril herself? [Sorry, Chauntea-based humour.]

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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