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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 13:26:06
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Ok you've sucessfully charmed the guard and convinced him to unlock that door just so you can take a peek at the treasure. After a quick look around you leave your friend to his duty and remind him not to tell anyone. When the spell ends does he realize he's been charmed and start running for the Captain of the guard?
What about suggestion. If you suggest that someone let you pass and forget that you were ever there when the spell ends do they realize that you enspelled them? or perhaps they are like "I have no idea how the prisoner escaped?"
Do the victims of charms realize they have been charmed or do they mentally block such actions out, considering it their opinions and choices. I mean I could see the charmed guard like, "No Captain, I let him in to look around. He said he's never seen such a treasure before and I...wait! Oh No! He must have enspelled me!"
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 14:32:37
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| The way I've seen it handled in the fiction was that the victim of the charm remembered his actions, but not the reason for them. This left said victim confused and upset about the whole thing, and he realized he must have been enspelled in some way. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 16:04:52
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Charming someone doesn't mean you control their mind, it just means they think of you as a BFF. How would the guard (or anyone) feel when their "friend" puts them in a situation where their job is on the line? The guard might become apologetic or even frustrated that his BFF is imposing on him to violate his orders; remember, he may or may not be friends with his superiors (indeed, he may even privately think his Captain is a martinet and his King is a fat inbred tyrant), but he's still got his own life and his (magically influenced) emotional and rational priorities. Guardsmen are not particularly noted for possessing brilliant intellect, and guarding the Royal Loot Vault might be very desirable (a position of honour, or just a soft and cushy assignment) or very undesirable (boring punishment detail). He might not want to see his "friend" taken to the dungeons for interrogation, so attempt to firmly convince this "friend" to leave the castle before he gets caught.
The victim has memory of his actions after the charm wears off. Maybe he wouldn't think about it much (people enter the vault all the time) or maybe he'd wonder a little because it's something unusual (this is the first time he's opened the door in months, or the first time the Royal Chamberlain wasn't watching) ... he'd naturally associate his "friend's" peek inside with any recent theft or intrusion. He would probably realize his "old friend" somehow influenced or enchanted him, though he might not make the connection until questioned by someone (his wife, his priest, his drinking buddies) after mentioning (a possibly edited version) of the incident to them.
If the guardsman is somehow familiar with magic - he's seen charms before, or knows a mage, etc - then he would probably recognize the spell effects soon after they wear off. He would probably also sound the alarm and be a bit upset at the magical manipulation, he might be very difficult for that particular character to charm again. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 04:29:41
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| Regarding suggestions, might I "suggest" that if the person is told to forget that something happened, they would likely not remember it except subconsciously- perhaps knowing that "something is bothering" them that they can't quite place. IE, if questioned, they won't directly remember seeing or doing something, but they might have a sense of missing time or of somehing being out of place. As long as th suggestion seems reasonable, it would remain in place even after the spell wears off- it just seems like a natural thought, and anything the subject deems too insignificant to remember probably never happened! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 08:22:38
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Although everything you say makes logical sense, Arik, the problem with that line of reasoning means the DM can undermine the PCs ability to use his spells effectively, which is some heavy railroading.
But I do agree with your logic.
Its just that your way, those types of spells become practically worthless. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 15:15:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Although everything you say makes logical sense, Arik, the problem with that line of reasoning means the DM can undermine the PCs ability to use his spells effectively, which is some heavy railroading.
But I do agree with your logic.
Its just that your way, those types of spells become practically worthless.
I agree with his logic, and I don't think it makes the spells useless. It really only affects the efficacy of the spells if they keep casting them on the same people or in the same area. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Dec 2010 15:15:33 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 18:13:05
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lol, Markus, I'm surprised - you agree with the logic yet feel this treatment of charms is heavy railroading?
D&D veterans know that charm NPC, along with enchantment and illusion magic in general, is a tricky spell which requires whimsical DM "discretion" on a case-by-case basis, almost as tricky as the dreaded wish spells.
I'll admit that - using the OP as an example - I'd probably allow the PC to convince the charmed guardsman to let him peek into the vault. He could pridefully say "hey, look what I'm in charge of guarding, important stuff, the King really trusts me". The guardsman would probably still take care to conceal any secret combinations, levers, and command words needed to bypass traps and wards. Maybe he's young, trusting, and a bit naive; maybe he's a grizzled suspicious old veteran who automatically trusts nobody by nature, maybe even an elite hardened veteran who was handpicked for this station because of his steadfast unfaltering loyalty to his King and duty. "Sorry, buddy, I wish I could help ye, but ye know I can't violate my oaths to the King and the Guard." Maybe the charm makes bribery/bluff attempts more likely to succeed (a favourite trick with my PCs); just being a BFF doesn't mean you're gullible or believe lies, skill checks still apply. Simply assign XP level and Save modifiers if necessary.
What I was saying is that the guard has a life. Would you happily hand your buddy all your credit cards, bank PIN codes, wallet/ID, and a bunch of blank signed cheques on a flimsy explanation just because you completely trust him/her? What if your buddy showed up at your workplace, in the company of a bunch of "adventurous" (threatening/seedy looking) strangers? What if your career (at the bank or wherever) was on the line, or you had a family to feed? I don't want to sound like a selfish bastard, but I'll confess that the well-being of my buddies ultimately takes second priority to that of myself and my family.
I'll admit that I let PCs manipulate charmed NPCs a little easier when their purpose (as far as I can tell) simply helps move the story and game pace along, while I'll make it more difficult when they're just getting too greedy and lazy. They usually only attempt charm spells when they're seeking a non-violent (and non-lethal), subtle, or stealthy objective; if I make the spell useless then they'll just get into the habit of routinely blasting everyone they meet. So, in short, I'm a bit inconsistent applying the in-game logic as well; I'd rather keep things working than hang the entire adventure over a quibbly little detail of this sort.
To be technical - why should PCs have some special immunity to charm magics (cast by each other, at least) which can affect NPCs, even animals and monsters, even undead and planars? Why should the "intent" behind the charm magic have any impact on the spell? Can people who are familiar with charms recognize that they've been influenced after the fact? Even during the fact? I can't speak for everybody, but I know that I'd be quite angry if somebody "violated" my free will with magic, no matter how harmless the manipulation may have been. Finally: charms are typically low-level (even 1st level) spells and I try to scale their effectiveness to keep them in line with higher-level enchantment spell options. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Dec 2010 18:23:59 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 03:03:01
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Which Edition?
In some ways it does not matter 1st though 3rd. The person remembers all actions. How the character deals with the issue depends on their makeup and social position/rank.
Telling certain Captains that security was breached could mean death for failure of duty, other circumstances could result in promotion for detecting an unusual event. It depends on the culture.
The charm spell only allows a person to believe is good friend for duration of the spell, it does not cause forgetfulness. The character will remember a friend asking for security breech and allowing such friend to do so.
In a world of magic it would appear that even if not charmed before, that there would be stories of people claiming to have been charmed (some might lie about being charmed *wink*) to explain their actions) so it tends to follow the guard would suspect was charmed.
After that it becomes what to do about it? Showing the friend the treasure might be safe, however it clearly is likely the false friend (and yes the guard will know was false) plans to return to steal the treasure. The guard can hope that the raid would occur while off duty, however that can not be assured. The basic answer of most would be report as soon as possible or to seek out false friend and remove the raid prospect. Much of what choice is made depends on which holds the higher hazard for the guard. |
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"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 03:11:39
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| I suppose a careful reading of the spell description (for your particular edition) is in order. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 05:55:28
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| But when the charm spell ends does the guard remember his friend stopping by for a quick peek in the vault of that some strange mage charmed him? Does charm imply that once cast the Target permanently remembers u as a friend? |
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Mystic Lemur
Seeker
58 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 17:56:12
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Well, I just read the spell description (3.5) and it doesn't say anything about altering the subjects memory. That would seem a little powerful for a 1st level spell. In fact, it only moves the subjects attitude to 'Friendly' so opening the vault seems right out, at least without an opposed Charisma check (like the mechanics in the spell description). If the action you try to order him to do is obviously harmful (like putting his job/life in danger) he gets a new save at +5.
I would second the suggestion that you read the spell description. I would also suggest you take a look at the Diplomacy skill, since that is the mechanic it emulates. |
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Charms and Suggestions
