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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 03:10:04
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This is something of a thematic gripe (justified or unjustified as it may be). The Epic Destiny concept by and large just does not seem to fit the style of FR (for many epic destinies).
The Realms have always had a large share of epic characters, albeit it they have the tendency to be wizards. Elminster, the Simbul, Larloch, Karsus, Srinshee, Shoon/Zallanora (what is his status post Spellplague anyway?), Storm Silverhand et al. Larger than life characters who have a big impact on the world around them.
But as epic as they are, few have reached the magnitude of stature that a significant number of epic destinies imply when achieved.
While the Realms certainly may have Magisters, Legendary Monarchs, Chosen, a few demigods, and a Reformed Drow or two. These are characters that tend to spring forward individually.
Then we look at party of PCs and suddenly we have one create an unstoppable army, another founding or taking over a kingdom creating a golden age that extends for centuries. His good buddy Wizard (1) becomes an Immanence and... what? Becomes a force even more powerful than Ao? His sibling, Wizard B, realizes the world is a fiction and becomes essentially the universal DM? (Hmmm, I suppose the Parable could then say 4e was all a bad dream and bring the campaign back to the 3.5 timeline, restoring the weave etc. Don't mind this here, just some post plague bitterness.)
Their resident psionicist then creates his own multiverse which runs on his imagination (Demiurge). These are characters that thematically would be able to create greater god avatars if they are so inclined (without limit) should they achieve their epic destinies.
The entire mutliverse worth of primordials, gods, demon lords and archdevils would be descending on the party's sleepy little hut in Shadowdale with all their whelmed legions to destroy our PC heroes.
The Realms would barely survive one campaign.
Even for a place with such epic doings as the Realms, its more than a little obscene concentration of power.
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 10:49:15
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| What would you say then about Epic Level Handbook from 3 e? It's essentially the same... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 11:46:05
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| The epic destinies works fine in the realms. An extremely minute ammount of people achieve such grandeur, so it's only fitting that such greatness be achieved by the player's characters. It shows just how special and unique they are, and puts the spotlight even further on THEM. It's all in how it's handled anyways, but anyone who survives and manages to become an epic heor deserves the power they accumulate (wether used for good or for ill in the realms).. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 13:39:54
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To a degree I agree with Veritas. The epic destinies in FR should depict a level of power that would be more or less on par with the other heroes that survived and lived in FR's history. Most of FR's 20+ level NPC's were still very much tied to their work on the surface of Toril, and very few achieved godhood or something similar.
But Alisttair has a point. Ones perspective on the final epic destiny of PC in the realms should be seen as their end story, in which they somehow reach immortality or transcend the "earthly forgotten realms" into a level of power far beyond mortal comprehension. In 3.5 terms they should be seen as 35th level and higher, not merely 30th. For example, the Seven Sisters around 1373 aught to be seen as level 24 and above, Elminster (without his loss in sanity and power) at level 28, Khelben as level 26, et cetera & et all.
A PC wizard achieving the ultimate archmage status surpasses Elminster in a fundamental way; he unravels the Demispell (the hyperplanar spell that unravels the mystery of the arcane power source and allows you to shape any spell to your liking), a feat Elminster has not yet achieved. Karsus came close perhaps, but in his hubris used the Demispell to wrench power from the goddes of magic, unsure of its effects on him. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 14:06:12
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Much better explained by Bladewind  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 16:52:11
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Well put Bladewind. I wrote that in more than a little frustration with the concept and you put it more succinctly than I could. We do see the achievements of epic destinies to a point in the Realms. This often would seem to be divine ascension or chosen status.
Karsus would certainly fit the mold. The founding of such as Cormyr and Myth Drannor would match up to sovereign style epic destinies. These work thematically and illustrate something of an upper strata of what ambition can be realized by mortals.
I would even agree that merging with the demispell could fit. Except when of course two or three members of the party have the same Epic Destiny.
But then we look at Immanence (and similar destinies).
The Immanence becomes one with everything, evolving beyond all divinity and primordials. Essentially he becomes the equivalent of Ao, if not even more powerful. He does this WITH A THOUGHT.
This being could create a thousand Szass Tams to frolic around in Thay because hey, its all energy anyway. Poor Szass Tam sure is working hard to achieve a fraction of this power (and definitely not just by thinking about it).
His boon companion, the Demiurge psionicist creates his own multiverse.
Lets not even get started on Parable. Meta-awareness as an epic path and a 'become the DM' destiny is thematically incomptible with the Realms as a continuing setting.
All this while capped at 30th level, which doesn't even come close to representing the power level of many Realms characters. Meanwhile Ioulam has to sit immobilized as an undead illithid elder brain. Larloch (you can at least argue as an Archlich ED), another titan of magic twiddles his thumb bones in his warlock stronghold. The Srinshee... well who knows what she's up to now. Maybe she's on her way to bumping Ao out of his lofty chair.
Part of the attraction of the Realms is its continued progress as a setting. Even epic characters and deities can and do play a continuing role in shaping its future. The Epic Destiny system seems to imply a one and done setting, as opposed to a continuing narrative. To me at least, that just isn't Realmsian.
Edit: Clearly DM fiat can overrule any of the epic destinies, but that excuse is tired. It can overrule the Spellplague, any of the editions, rules, characters etc. As a conceptual framework many of these destiny's immortality just have no place in the realms. |
Edited by - Veritas on 11 Jan 2011 19:27:55 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 17:07:08
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| Just restrict certain epic destinies in your own world and you should be ok. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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The frightening clash of Epic Destinies and FR
