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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 22 Apr 2011 :  20:10:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You must not have read very much pre-4E material, then...

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Kerryth Silver
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Posted - 22 Apr 2011 :  20:14:08  Show Profile Send Kerryth Silver a Private Message  Reply with Quote
orly?

so no problems in editing or continuity pre-4e?

mm'k

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 22 Apr 2011 :  22:28:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kerryth Silver

orly?

so no problems in editing or continuity pre-4e?

mm'k





Some issues here and there, but certainly not "HUGE gaps in continuity". In fact, the only large gap is the 100 timejump of 4E.

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2011 :  02:31:15  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kerryth Silver

I completely throw out all pre-4e lore, due to the HUGE gaps in continuity, @ss tons of Gary Stus and Mary Sues, and TOTAL editorial failings. If I had to read one more half-naked romp by the Sisters, in which they save the world and convince everyone that they are better than everyone else, I'd tear out my eye-ballz.

On topic, though, I'd vote other: With a HUGE "WHAT!? WHAT!?" goin out to Seriadne .

I mean, awesome! A MALAUGRYM SIMBARCHE!

"WHAT!? WHAT!?"



As Wooly said.

It's difficult to make a generalization like that if you read only a handful of the pre-4E books. I suggest you visit and peruse some really helpful scrolls in the Novels section of this site. And don't be surprised if you find that there are a lot of us here who favor the old (1E-3E novels) as much as or more than the 4E ones.

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

The problem with shady characters, however, is on how we draw the line between heroism and villainy. Would their mere evil intention suffice to categorize them as villains, even when the results brought more good than harm to the many?
This is a really good question. IMO villainy comes in a combination of motives, methods/means, and results/ends. If the ends justify the means, you're dealing with someone of neutral or even evil alignment (as that isn't generally a "good" philosophy). I think good shady characters make you ask those questions and constantly try to label them, even though by their very nature they defy labels.

I personally love writing villainesses and in particular playing with that moral ambiguity. My Scyllua novel would have been that, to a G (for "gray"). I generally try to paint villains in shades of black and gray.

Cheers



The more my readers question whether my antagonists are really evil or just "victims of unfortunate circumstances," the more I think I've been effective in making them shady. Come to think of it, even heroes are victims of unfortunate situations. So in the end it comes down to how the character views herself against/with the world/other characters---her philosophy, beliefs, goals. At times labeling her may cease to matter, because it can change from time to time.

And as a matter of fact, I enjoy writing shady villainesses more than pure evil ones, who at times happen to be the antagonists of the former.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 23 Apr 2011 06:02:42
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Kerryth Silver
Acolyte

8 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2011 :  19:29:27  Show Profile Send Kerryth Silver a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You must not have read very much pre-4E material, then...



Naw. My dad gave me all his books. He had all of em. So I read em all, and 4e is the best ed so far.

Weird that no 4e villian-chicks are on the poll listz. So I'm gonna throw up another what-what for Seriadne (Malaugrym Simbarche PWNS!)
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2011 :  22:31:26  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd personally liked to see Fienra and Glasya, the archduchesses of the fourth and sixth layers of hell respectively, get more time as villainesses, but their nature as archdevils makes this unlikely.

That being said, I voted for Quen, not because I like her very much but because I think she's the most likely option, and spoilers ahead as I discuss how much 4e's building her up(not sure if it's been touched on). 4e has her kill Triel and take over as Matron of Baenre while maintaining her role as head priestess of the temple in Menzo. Makes a fairly big deal about the fact no one's held both titles before, and in general about how powerful she is. So I see big things in her future.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2011 :  00:28:27  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kerryth Silver

Weird that no 4e villian-chicks are on the poll listz.



Lallara Mediocros, Quenthel Baenre, Triel Baenre, and the Durthans appeared in pre-4E, and they still do in 4E. And Dmitra Flass is a new 4E character.

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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2011 :  02:26:22  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Triel appears in 4e as a corpse entombed in her dining room while Quenthel sits on the throne.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2011 :  03:59:15  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Which is just right. I don't see her as a "good" leader. And she herself said that.

Every beginning has an end.
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Lord Karsus
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USA
3191 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2011 :  04:05:19  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Which is just right. I don't see her as a "good" leader. And she herself said that.



-Quenthel, she never struck me as a particularly good leader, either, though. I always got the impression that she was kind of dumb, actually. Personally, I would have preferred that Triel stay in charge of the House, because I think the whole web of intrigue between Triel not being a particularly..."assertive" and confident leadership figure, Gromph doing his own thing in the shadows attempting to steer Triel in directions that are more beneficial towards his own particular goals, and Quenthel being...Quenthel, made for a more dynamic interplay.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2011 :  04:16:04  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Which is just right. I don't see her as a "good" leader. And she herself said that.



-Quenthel, she never struck me as a particularly good leader, either, though. I always got the impression that she was kind of dumb, actually. Personally, I would have preferred that Triel stay in charge of the House, because I think the whole web of intrigue between Triel not being a particularly..."assertive" and confident leadership figure, Gromph doing his own thing in the shadows attempting to steer Triel in directions that are more beneficial towards his own particular goals, and Quenthel being...Quenthel, made for a more dynamic interplay.



Triel practically didn't care what Gromph did. And so the archmage could do almost anything he wanted, save perhaps making the society and government patriarchal. And Quenthel? Hah! She hates Gromph and does everything in her power to make him and his wizards useful but not powerful enough to oppose her and her schemes. You're right, though. Quenthel is not that intelligent. But her decisiveness, cruelty, and assertiveness make up for that, making her more suited (between her and Triel, that is) to the throne.


If Triel remains as the matriach, almost everyone can do s/he wishes. Or worse, she'd be a puppet to some cunning drow opportunists. So what's the point of having a leader?

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 24 Apr 2011 04:20:05
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Lord Karsus
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USA
3191 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2011 :  04:21:28  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

Triel practically didn't care what Gromph did. And so the archmage could do almost anything he wanted, save perhaps making the society and government patriarchal. And Quenthel? Hah! She hates Gromph and does everything in her power to make him and his wizards useful but not powerful enough to oppose her and her schemes. You're right, though. Quenthel is not that intelligent. But her decisiveness, cruelty, and assertiveness make up for that, making her more suited (between her and Triel, that is) to the throne.


If Triel remains as the matriach, almost everyone can do s/he wishes. Or worse, she'd be a puppet to some cunning drow opportunists. So what's the point of having a leader?



-Which made for good intrigue, of which is central to Drow society, good character/plot development, and good reading.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2011 :  04:31:27  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yvonnel Baenre was decisive, cruel, and assertive, too. But that didn't stop good intrigue in the drow society.

-----

To those who read the Last Mythal trilogy:

Did Sarya actively participate in the battle? I read somewhere it was Malkizid who fought for her.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 26 Apr 2011 07:13:16
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coach
Senior Scribe

USA
479 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2011 :  18:09:36  Show Profile Send coach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Iyraclea ... she's cold blooded!

(and no she's not dead :) )

Bloodstone Lands Sage
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2011 :  18:53:58  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Sounds dead to me:

quote:

An excerpt from The Ruin

A towering mass of shadow appeared in front of the dracolich then swept forward like a wave racing toward the shore. Giants and wyrms scrambled to get out of the way. Those who failed broke part into small fragments, which then crumbled to powder. The darkness likewise obliterated the paving stones in its path, and as soon as the first of them shattered, the symbols on all the others stopped gleaming.

The wave raced on amid swirling dust. It surged over Kara's body, and Raryn, Taegan, and Brimstone's misty forms, and they too disappeared. At the opposite end of the square, it engulfed its actual target and halted with a suddenness no mundane matter could have matched. It clasped Iyraclea's slender form like amber encasing an insect.

Fissures ran through her skin as if she were a clay figure on the verge of breaking. Yet she didn't perish immediately, as lesser beings had. She chanted the Frostmaiden's name, and her body glowed like ice refracting sunlight, the blaze piercing the surrounding murk. She grew taller, as though the Cold Goddess was lending her more strength than a humansized frame could contain.

Then, however, Zethrindor roared another word, and the Ice Queen thrashed in agony. She was woman-sized again, her inner glow guttering out.

"Aur—" she croaked, and a jagged crack split her luscious mouth and perfect face in two. Her left foot dropped away from its ankle. Then the shadow devoured her completely.

Afterward, the magic dwindled and disappeared like water draining into the ground. Evidently exhausted, Zethrindor slumped down. Dorn looked around and saw nothing but drifts of dust and the broad new scar across the plaza.


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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 29 Apr 2011 :  21:40:43  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Did being decapitated, hacked a bit, and devoured by shadows ever stop Jean Grey? Iyraclea just isn't trying hard enough.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 Apr 2011 :  22:41:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion

-Did being decapitated, hacked a bit, and devoured by shadows ever stop Jean Grey? Iyraclea just isn't trying hard enough.



No, but a difference between comics and the Realms is that in the Realms, it's possible to stay dead.

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2011 :  04:09:35  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion

-Did being decapitated, hacked a bit, and devoured by shadows ever stop Jean Grey? Iyraclea just isn't trying hard enough.



No, but a difference between comics and the Realms is that in the Realms, it's possible to stay dead.



Indeed. Though I must say that should someone ever feel inclined to bring her back, like what they did to Pharaun and others, s/he better have a good reason for it and present it with credibility.

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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 30 Apr 2011 :  04:33:54  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right. Though I must say that in comics, too, there had better be a GOOD reason to bring them back. Only Jean/Phoenix really has a valid reason to keep coming back.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2011 :  04:51:32  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Unfortunately, 'good reason' is a very relative term...

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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 30 Apr 2011 :  04:55:07  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True, true....

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Dennis
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Posted - 30 Apr 2011 :  05:09:16  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Though a majority may agree on what it is. Resurrecting a character who died a pointless death only to give him another pointless death is hardly a good reason. And I think you know whom I refer to.

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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 30 Apr 2011 :  05:19:00  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not really. Whom? Supes? Bats? Wolverine? Scarlet Spider(aka Ben Reilly)?

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2011 :  05:20:51  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Not comics character. FR. And it's Pharaun.

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 30 Apr 2011 :  05:21:50  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Not comics character. FR. And it's Pharaun.



-He was resurrected in the Fractured Sky series? And, then he died again? Oy vey...I didn't like the character too much, but...

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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