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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2010 :  18:43:51  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

According to Ed, the Simbul may surprise you in time yet to come. Or not, depending on your view of the character.
love,
THO



I'd love that. She often surprised me in every novel where she appeared.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2010 :  03:39:45  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm a little bit surprised with the results so far...specially that no one voted 'Others.'

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 09 Nov 2010 03:25:54
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Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker

51 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  03:37:40  Show Profile  Visit Tren of Twilight Tower's Homepage Send Tren of Twilight Tower a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

I'm a little bit surprised with the results so far...specially that no one voted 'Others.'




Corrected. Although I will fail to provide specifics on "other". Have only a concept on my mind, not the name - yet.

Tren
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scererar
Master of Realmslore

USA
1615 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  03:49:32  Show Profile Send scererar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
of the choices, I picked Scyllua Darkhope.

"Yap,yap, little dog!" - Riven - page 326 Shadowbred, by Paul Kemp

_________________________

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- J. R. R. Tolkien
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31639 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  04:39:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd like to see more of Scyllua... But my fave FR villianess would be Cassana. She destroyed her lover, kept him around as a lich under her near-total domination, and then had to tease him by creating a physically younger version of herself that was also an unknowing and dominated assassin.

In terms of sheer deliberate emotional cruelty -- which I find more evil than generic conquest/rulership-type evil -- Cassana puts the other ladies on the list to shame.

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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe

199 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  05:23:45  Show Profile  Visit bladeinAmn's Homepage Send bladeinAmn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think a big reason why FR novels and sourcebooks about drow have sold so well throughout the years is in large part due to the many believable (as opposed to contrived) female villains. Seriously, from at least 'typical' hetero male's POV, there's another dimension of thoughts and emotions that arise when dealing w/an attractive female villain, that will not or will have a hard time arising, in most cases, when dealing w/a male villain. Such as thoughts/feelings of arousal, peace, empathy and even flirtations, much like the same feelings that arise when dealing w/nymphs and dryads (as opposed to their male counterparts in the wilderness eg.-satyrs), all funnelling their way through how the 'typical' male reader or male protagonist views and feels about the attractive female villain. The human male protagonist in Ed's Dark Warrior Rising goes through these type of bouts regarding his sexy drow female oppressors.

And from a 'typical' hetero female's POV, I reckon the additional dimensions of thoughts and emotions that arise when dealing w/female villains are ones that deal w/their own securities/insecurities vs. the villains confidence or 'show' of confidence.

Edit: Hot damn Cassana seems vicious, and believeable! I had never heard of her before!

Edited by - bladeinAmn on 09 Nov 2010 06:07:14
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31696 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  05:32:24  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'd like to see more of Scyllua... But my fave FR villianess would be Cassana. She destroyed her lover, kept him around as a lich under her near-total domination, and then had to tease him by creating a physically younger version of herself that was also an unknowing and dominated assassin.

In terms of sheer deliberate emotional cruelty -- which I find more evil than generic conquest/rulership-type evil -- Cassana puts the other ladies on the list to shame.

I'll second this. Because I've always wanted to see more of what her early years with Zrie were like. I know of few individuals who've been described as falling "madly" in love [with the emphasis on "madly"].

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  06:30:00  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In Daughter of the Drow and the WotSQ, I almost wanted Gromph and his underlings to succeed in toppling the female-centered system of their society; but I realized we'd see yet again another male-governed realm. So though I prefer wizards to priests/priestesses, I was still glad that at the end the cruel priestesses continued to rule. If the wizards were females and the worshipers of Lloth males, I would favor the wizards. (Besides, almost all drow are villains.) So as long as the females are given long-enough exposure, highlight, or ample consideration, I'm fine with it.

Every beginning has an end.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  06:42:03  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, I'd rather see them all unite than have one side topple the other. THAT would be scary!!

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  08:15:52  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They're united in the zulkirs-unite-if-it-suits-them way.

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Mouse
Seeker

USA
28 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  08:36:09  Show Profile  Visit Mouse's Homepage Send Mouse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I gotta go with Iyraclea here.
Ed's canon overtakes book canon IMHO, if only because Ed is consistent and the books lack that sometimes.
As an example, though she seems to do nothing at all, remember the area she controls, the Great Glacier is almost the size of Faerun itself, and would cover the entire northern half of the continent and most of the Sea of Fallen Stars it overlaps.
Now, I know it's not particularly heavily inhabited, but there ARE people and creatures there, and the Ice Queen practically has absolute dominion over ALL of it, and I'm inclined to think she controls the weather there too, as part of her Chosen powers.
I think, on her own turf, she COULD go toe-to-toe with Larloch, who despite his vast arcane might couldn't indefinitely face the force of an entire sub-continent coming down on him led by a foe that is arguably of his caliber magic-wise (though divine and not arcane admittedly).

"Barbarians are more polite then civilized men, for civilized men know they may be rude to another without having their skulls cleaved open as a general thing."
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  09:04:29  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I had read The Ruin long before I learned from Ed that Iyraclea is strong enough to challenge Larloch. It kinda didn't make sense at first... Sammaster effortlessly ridded her servants and made a blatant 'mockery' of her power when he went to visit her in her own fortress. And to add to the 'insult,' she could not even defeat his 'minion,' Zethrindor. And needless to say, both Sammaster and Zethrindor are just insignificant flies if compared to Larloch. So how can someone who cannot beat Larloch's inferiors hope to stand a chance against him? Buuut, let's remember that first and foremost, Iyralcea was a PRIESTESS. Ergo, 99.9 percent of her power came from Auril herself. We can simply speculate on her inability to defeat her foes and her eventual demise... Maybe Auril gave her an important task prior to the events in the YoRD, a task she failed to do; and thus Auril saw her unworthy to be a High Priestess. She would still hear her prayers, and she did, for servants she needed. But she would no longer grant her more power than she deserved. Or maybe Auril simply found another priestess (or priest) worthy to replace the Ice Queen. Or perhaps we can just credit it to the author's 'artistic liberty.'

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Mouse
Seeker

USA
28 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  10:26:28  Show Profile  Visit Mouse's Homepage Send Mouse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think artistic license is right in Iyraclea's case. She was required to look like a chump to show off how "serious" certain villains are. Happens in TV and comics a lot really: it's called the "Worf Effect" when a powerful character gets tossed around to show how badass another is.
In Salvatore's writing the drow are over and over again said to be among the most skilled fighters in all the Realms and Underdark alike, yet in-game they die in droves to mildy experienced or smart combat-based PC's (I think in one game the party I was with managed to rack up a whopping total of 80 drow kills over the course of five different very long encounters).
What it comes down to is in the writing you do what the plot needs, which doesn't really mean it has to make sense in the larger context: I think WotC doesn't really give a toss so long as it sells.
Ed on the other hand is consistent in what he says about the setting, which would make sense as it is HIS setting.

"Barbarians are more polite then civilized men, for civilized men know they may be rude to another without having their skulls cleaved open as a general thing."
-Conan
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Mouse
Seeker

USA
28 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  10:30:08  Show Profile  Visit Mouse's Homepage Send Mouse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I find it notable that Sammaster was currently the main bad guy what with the Rage going on at the time, so it was basically time to show how badass he was: if there was a DIFFERENT storyline going on involving say....Iyraclea invading with the power of Auril from the Great Glacier, why I'm certain she'd be kicking arse all over the Realms to look cool .

"Barbarians are more polite then civilized men, for civilized men know they may be rude to another without having their skulls cleaved open as a general thing."
-Conan
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  13:04:14  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mouse

What it comes down to is in the writing you do what the plot needs, which doesn't really mean it has to make sense in the larger context: I think WotC doesn't really give a toss so long as it sells.




This is one of the problems in a shared-world setting. Though I can say it need not be. Assign one, two, or a group of 'overseers' to ensure consistency in the novels...

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 11 Nov 2010 14:16:27
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31639 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2010 :  02:05:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Mouse

What it comes down to is in the writing you do what the plot needs, which doesn't really mean it has to make sense in the larger context: I think WotC doesn't really give a toss so long as it sells.




This is one of the problems in a shared-world setting. Though I can say it need not be. Assign one, two, or a group of 'overseers' to ensure consistency in the novels...



They had such a position, in 2E. So far as I know, when 3E came out, they no longer had a designated "traffic cop" for the setting.

There's a statement in that, I think.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2010 :  03:05:45  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And they removed that position because they thought 'tis okay to be inconsistent so long as the novels sell?

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31639 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2010 :  03:52:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

And they removed that position because they thought 'tis okay to be inconsistent so long as the novels sell?



We have no information as to why they decided they no longer needed someone to monitor continuity. All we can do is speculate.

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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe

Israel
352 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2010 :  07:33:11  Show Profile  Visit Menelvagor's Homepage Send Menelvagor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One:
According to Ed, the Simbul may surprise you in time yet to come. Or not, depending on your view of the character.
love,
THO

Very few 'views' of the Simbul can suprise those who've seen her, considering how much of her one can 'view'...
Seriosuly though, I rather agree. I mean, without spoiling anything, I'm not certain what El's doing in ELminster Must Die is 'good'. And it could easily develop into something 'evil'. But that's the beauty of Ed's writing, as our Lady said: Everybody's shades of gray.

"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.

"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.

"There are no stupid questions just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2010 :  11:14:04  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One:
According to Ed, the Simbul may surprise you in time yet to come. Or not, depending on your view of the character.
love,
THO

Very few 'views' of the Simbul can suprise those who've seen her, considering how much of her one can 'view'...
Seriosuly though, I rather agree. I mean, without spoiling anything, I'm not certain what El's doing in ELminster Must Die is 'good'. And it could easily develop into something 'evil'. But that's the beauty of Ed's writing, as our Lady said: Everybody's shades of gray.



To quote El in Elminster Must Die!:

"Lad, lad, there are no good people and bad people - there are just people, doing things others deem good or bad."

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2010 :  00:12:59  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Isn't it time to see an archvillainess who is in "shades of gray"? LE is the common alignment of villains, even if their actions sometimes (inadvertently) caused something good to the greater populace. CE, I think, is way better. Anilya, from The Shield of Weeping Ghosts, comes to mind. She deserves the crown of archvillainy. (But that judgment is subject to change: I'm still halfway through the book.)

The problem with shady characters, however, is on how we draw the line between heroism and villainy. Would their mere evil intention suffice to categorize them as villains, even when the results brought more good than harm to the many?

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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe

Greece
579 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2010 :  20:02:20  Show Profile  Visit BARDOBARBAROS's Homepage Send BARDOBARBAROS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Quenthel Baenre

BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!


"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2)
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2011 :  12:51:26  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If Quenthel were to be an archvillainess, I'd like to see her expand her domain to the surface world.

----

I think it's better if the archvillainess specializes in something that was rarely exploited in the past, like illusion.

A female phaerimm would also work, I guess.

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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2011 :  15:58:09  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted Scyllua in the poll, in honor of the entire novel concept I devised with her as the archvillainess/love interest of the main *good* protagonist. Sadly, said novel never actually materialized, but the idea is still there, so no more details.

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

The problem with shady characters, however, is on how we draw the line between heroism and villainy. Would their mere evil intention suffice to categorize them as villains, even when the results brought more good than harm to the many?
This is a really good question. IMO villainy comes in a combination of motives, methods/means, and results/ends. If the ends justify the means, you're dealing with someone of neutral or even evil alignment (as that isn't generally a "good" philosophy). I think good shady characters make you ask those questions and constantly try to label them, even though by their very nature they defy labels.

I personally love writing villainesses and in particular playing with that moral ambiguity. My Scyllua novel would have been that, to a G (for "gray"). I generally try to paint villains in shades of black and gray.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 22 Apr 2011 16:06:45
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Kerryth Silver
Acolyte

8 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2011 :  19:01:44  Show Profile Send Kerryth Silver a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I completely throw out all pre-4e lore, due to the HUGE gaps in continuity, @ss tons of Gary Stus and Mary Sues, and TOTAL editorial failings. If I had to read one more half-naked romp by the Sisters, in which they save the world and convince everyone that they are better than everyone else, I'd tear out my eye-ballz.

On topic, though, I'd vote other: With a HUGE "WHAT!? WHAT!?" goin out to Seriadne .

I mean, awesome! A MALAUGRYM SIMBARCHE!

"WHAT!? WHAT!?"

Edited by - Kerryth Silver on 22 Apr 2011 19:16:02
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