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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 10:18:24
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Sometimes they do completely unexpected, illogical, surprising things. Sometimes they stubbornly insist on railroading the DM, in plain defiance of all that is reasonable. Well, they're adventurers and so they're ambitiously unreasonable by definition; and besides, as often as not things can be salvaged or even turn out more interesting than planned.
But, what openly frustrates (and secretly amuses) me most is when my players simply flabbergast me with their sheer senseless stupidity.
(players are attempting to rob a temple of Mask; they have set off many traps and are currently stuck in a sealed room, in the center of the room is a metal pedestal with a piece of trapped bait)
First player (F/T): "I'll grab the big [golfball-sized] glowing pearl off the pedestal."
Other players (shouting): "No! No! No! Don't - it's another lightning trap! That's the third eye! Remember the warning from the riddle!"
DM (handsome me): "So ... the rest of the party obviously recommends you don't touch the pearl because it might be another lightning trap. What are you gonna do?"
First player: "Well the last lightning trap only killed two of us, right? They were wimps anyways, and besides, we're mostly healed now. So I'm gonna grab the pearl. It's gotta be worth, like, easily 500GP, right?"
DM (carefully neutral): "You can't properly appraise the pearl without removing it, but it definitely looks very valuable. Will anyone try to stop him?"
Other players: "I back against the wall, behind my shield! - I cast Globe of Invulnerability on myself - I'm going to read my Protection from Traps scroll - I'm going to search for another way out of the room."
First player: "Hey! I said I was grabbing the pearl first!"
(players bicker, initiative dice are rolled, first player wins)
First player: "Awesome! Okay, I grab the pearl with both hands! Before they all try to waste their spells and stuff."
DM: "Okay ... just like last time, a massive forked blast of red chain lightning emits from the pedestal..."
(lots of swearing and dice rolling, everybody takes lots of damage, somebody dies, players bicker again)
First player: "Okay, I reach for the pearl again."
Other players (enraged): "Huh, WTF??? You're gonna kill us all! It's obviously trapped, you moron!"
First player: "Yeah, but now it's gone off. I want that pearl."
DM (wincing): "Are you really sure you want to touch the pearl again? Another blast could kill everybody ... what do the rest of you do?"
(other players protest first player's intended action vehemently but choose to act cowardly again, more bickering, more initiative dice are rolled, first player wins again)
First player: "I'll use both hands. Even if the trap explodes again, I wanna yank that pearl off."
DM (apologetically): "Ah, well okay ... once again, a massive forked blast of red chain lightning emits from the pedestal..."
(lots more swearing and dice rolling, everybody takes lots of damage, somebody else dies, players bicker again)
First player: "Dammit! I want that pearl! I'm reaching for it again!"
DM (merciful): "Time Out. Look OOC, you know the pedestal has a magic trap, right? I'm telling you right now that it does. I'll let you roll to Detect Traps with 100% success this time. One more blast will kill you all - it's suicide, two of you are already dying and the rest have a combined total of about 10 hit points left."
First player: "Yeah, maybe. But I'm still reaching for the pearl. It's gotta run out of charges eventually."
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[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Oct 2010 13:17:02
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 14:31:17
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......wow. Just....wow.
That sorta reminds me of an episode of The Simpsons where Bart breaks Lisa's science project so she makes a science project out of Bart and he keeps touching this piece of cheese (which is hooked up to a battery and shocking him) and says "Ow! Quit it! Ow! Quit it. OW! Quit it!" over and over. Pretty damn hilarious.
But as a DM, you might have let him have the pearl after the second (or possibly third) attempt. Or at the very least, allow the Initiative order to proceed after he touched the pearl a 1st time, thus allowing the other characters to perform actions such as casting protection spells, hiding behind shields, or even attacking their comrade in a hope to subdue him.
Or....you could have allowed them to come up with a way to retreive the pearl. Possibly someone shooting the pearl off the pedestal, using magic like Prestidigitation or Open/Close to lift it off the pedestal or even direct damage to the pedestal. Additional effects such as Dispel Magic on the pedestal could help stop the lighting from triggering.
Though I don't know if your PCs would try any of those attempts. But after the second time, if you've no intent on letting them have the pearl, then I probably would've said that OOC.
An example of us (as players) trying to do something the DM pretty much said no to was when we were doing the Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land adventure. We've already done most of it, but now it was time to stop the Zhent invasion of Shadowdale and/or drive them back. We were looking at their base of operations (can't remember if it was Zhentil Keep itself or a castle/fortification in the Dales). Our plan (namely mine and one other PC) was to use our Dark Tapestry (shadowy flying carpet taken from the previous Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave adventure) and load it up with gallons of alchemists fire. Then we were gonna carpet bomb the entire battlements of the fortification. My character on a flying pegasus was to offer air support with the Sorcereress and our other PCs by access of the Fly spell. After we've carpet-bomed the castle and taken care of any left-over opposition, we we're gonna gain access via flying over the walls and assault the inside directly.
Our DM: Uh......no.
Us: Why?! That plan is epic!!
DM: 'Cuz you'd all die from the castle's defenses.
Us: What defenses? Guys on the parapets with arrows?! Nothing short of +3 arrows or more is gonna hit us and for what 1d8+3 damage? We can take it.
DM: No, not arrows or even catapults or Trebuchets. Try flying Zhent-Mages on Darken-beasts. And not like 2 or 3. Try a flight of them (somthing near 12) and they're all ready for combat.
Most of Us: Yea, we'll try another way.
Me and other Co-Conspirator: I think we can take em'.
Though before we could proceed we stopped the campaign. Shame, I was always sorta curious about what would've happened in a direct assualt. But he was a nice DM and said that the book mentioned any sort of direct assault would ultimately result in a failure and possible death of everyone. *sigh* we were bad PCs lol. |
Edited by - Diffan on 17 Oct 2010 14:33:01 |
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mensch
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 15:22:38
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That example you give Diffan doesn't seem to be a case of bad PCs, though, more that of an inflexible DM. Why follow the little blurb in the book about "any direct assault will fail" if your PCs have come up with a rather cool sounding plan? Wouldn't it be all the more rewarding if such creative thinking was, to a certain extent, rewarded.
The example Arik gave was of sheer stubborn stupidty by a sinlge PC, but in your case I would have used "the Rule of Cool". |
Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I’ve tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate to know that for destruction ice is also great and would suffice. – Robert Frost (1874 - 1963) |
Edited by - mensch on 17 Oct 2010 15:23:30 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 16:14:17
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quote:
Originally posted by mensch
That example you give Diffan doesn't seem to be a case of bad PCs, though, more that of an inflexible DM. Why follow the little blurb in the book about "any direct assault will fail" if your PCs have come up with a rather cool sounding plan? Wouldn't it be all the more rewarding if such creative thinking was, to a certain extent, rewarded.
On one hand I totally agree with you. I think carpet-bombing bad-guys is a really awesome way to assault a keep. I mean, we're using our magical itmes which have a limited use. My character's flying pegasus is created from none other than the famous Pegasus Helm of Kloeth Ironstar. Our Dark Tapestry only functions in dim-light to darkness but if it's ever exposed to bright light, it'll stop functioning. I think it would've been a lot of fun.
But on the other hand, I don't know if he wanted to do all the logistics of the attack, the alchemists fire dmg, and possible reprecussions of the assualt and how they would go about defending it. Additionally, when using a published adventure, DMs tend to want to stick to what the adventure says. Had it been homebrew adventure, I'm sure he would've worked around the problem and let us try (failure or not). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 17:23:36
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Hmmm, Rule of Cool is one approach. Sure, I could've handled that encounter a bit differently. But - contrary to what you might expect from the example - these are all veteran PCs and, moreover, they somehow got the notion they should bust into a temple of Mask (the God of Thieves, y'know) to steal something ... an unplanned excursion, btw, which I initially attempted to discourage by warning that such a venture would be excessively full of traps, tricks, and backstabbing nastiness, plus not a few shadowy clerics.
I actually went easy on them at first; they set off some traps right away but didn't really suffer much for it. I hinted that perhaps a few precautions against traps might be prudent before they delved deeper (and they ignored me, thinking I was trying to frighten them into "wasting" their magic). Well, okay, not too much later a PC gets a little impaled by a nasty crossbow thing. Then another breathes too many acid fumes. They're all a little miffed by the omnipresent explosive glyphs which block passage. Every single player narrowly avoids being decapitated (one at a time, lol) walking through a guillotine doorblade. Repeated gentle hints ("Ah, if only you'd cast Detect Traps before that happened...") are routinely ignored. A redshirt NPC suffers a horrible and visceral fate after falling through a floor panel into a Blade Barrier. The angry clerics (attracted by the screaming) begin to converge on the PCs, but do not chase when they run into a metal room with a pedestal loaded with candy. Within minutes, a massive forked blast of red chain lightning emits from the pedestal, and a PC is killed. A metal portcullis begins to descend and the surviving PCs impulsively decide to (blindly) leap through before they're sealed in the trapped room. They heal up a little in the hallway, but hearing the angry clerics approach, they dive into another metal room which is basically identical to the first. And this is where the events of my first narration take place.
Note that the PCs were well equipped with spells, scrolls, and various knick-knacks for detecting, avoiding, or surviving traps. They were just hoarding. And gollum had to impulsively have his precious piece of candy even if it meant it would hurt/kill him and his entire party? Because he expected the lethal trap "would eventually run out of charges"? And the rest of them chose not to interfere (twice) after being prompted - why not?
Did I mention that they'd actually purchased a fairly detailed/accurate map and some riddles which they (correctly) interpreted as warnings about where the traps were placed? They didn't believe me, of course, even when I suggested they could confirm their suspicions by casting such simple spells as Augury. Again, they decided I was trying to goad them into "wasting" magic they would need "later". For some odd reason they had no particular objective in mind, just seemed to decide they'd wander around the temple at random (and vote at each intersection) while looking for stuff to steal and avoiding the clerics. Clerics which I deliberately kept fumbling around instead of bashing into the players, over and over again, even though by all rights they should've located and destroyed intruders within mere minutes after the alarm (er, party kicking in a back door) was sounded.
btw, I didn't have the heart to tell 'em the pearl was a fake, worth maybe 5GP ... and it belonged to me anyways, mwoohahahaa! Not that it really mattered, since each PC was well equipped and carrying several hundred GP, plus their "everybody votes on how it's spent (and DM breaks ties when needed)" shared/party treasure (coins and gems) was easily worth over 4000GP.
I'm not an evil DM, honest, but seriously, there's gotta be limits. The entire expedition was pointless, conceived very poorly, and implemented even worse, and plenty of escalated hints from gentle nudges to outright death were given. I thought if anything, I was being a little soft. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Oct 2010 18:55:16 |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 00:25:01
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quote:
Originally posted by mensch
That example you give Diffan doesn't seem to be a case of bad PCs, though, more that of an inflexible DM. Why follow the little blurb in the book about "any direct assault will fail" if your PCs have come up with a rather cool sounding plan? Wouldn't it be all the more rewarding if such creative thinking was, to a certain extent, rewarded.
The example Arik gave was of sheer stubborn stupidty by a sinlge PC, but in your case I would have used "the Rule of Cool".
I wouldn't have said it was impossible, I would have just let them make their assault and played out the encounter as written. Not my fault if the party fails to do what is required for basic intel. Of course if the party comes up with some nifty way to bypass/overwhelm the encounter...that's all good to.
I apply the Rule of Cool when I'm making things up on the fly, or to allow a chance of success, against the most likely skill/attribute roll, for something that should be impossible...but just sounds awesome! |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 00:36:29
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| Wow. Just- wow. I've had some players do stupid things at times, but never to that extent. And these were VETERAN players?! Sounds like you went easy on them. I wouldn't have. I've had plaers do dumb things and end up run out of town, or just outright smacked around for it. Had a warforged in the group once who decided it would be fun to just break down random doors in a dwarven city looking for "something interesting to do." And he wondered why he got beat over the head with a broom by an irate dwarf woman whose house he busted into on the first attempt. Had a half-dragon in another party who stole a statue from a shrine to Bast- and was immediately cursed with a feline allergy AND having them become attracted to her! That one turned out to lead to a really fun adventure, however. But there's at least ONE moron in every group. Sometimes more than one. And sometimes even the smart PC's do dumb stuff. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 05:11:34
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| Sometimes the players get the dragon, sometimes the dragon gets them ... you'd think, given enough time and adventuring, the ONE moron would've been removed through natural selection. What do you do when the entire table seems to be Feebleminded? Do you turn into a big softy, or blatantly railroad them away, or force them to suffer the final fate of all fools? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 06:42:20
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I think, as what should be a general rule of thumb, is that if you're gonna roleplay a PC w/above average wisdom or intelligence, that you should at least have it in RL. For RP'ing sake, of course.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 21:41:56
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"How come he gets to have Int 13 but I only get Int 9?"
... And so you roll dice. And sometimes your local village idiot qualifies to play some kind of supergenius with deadly spellcaster/psionic powers. It's like letting a 6y old have a flamethrower. |
[/Ayrik] |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 06:45:01
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^ I actually juss thought about how some candidates in the race for mayor in my city, performed today in the debate and back'n'forth Q & A on the news this past night, when reading what you wrote here! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 02:27:23
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i rolled up a cleric of greed, and followed a trail of
gold pieces into the forest close enough for a harpy to
start sining. I was dead in a shorter period of time
that it took to roll the character. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 12:10:09
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| I dimly recall my first character, an idiot paladin with a big chin, charged Zhentil Keep with his self-proclaimed righteous campaign to Remove the Blackened Heart of Evil from the Realms ... needless to say, he didn't even make it to the front gate. Puberty and Realms novels weren't the best role-playing guides available. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 12:41:47
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| I think that in our first campaign we spent more time rolling up new characters, due to the previous one being recently deceased, than we did playing. |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 13:23:15
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That seems to be endemic, our group did as well. We'd bring pre-rolled spares to compensate for the attrition.
Until our DM implemented his wonderful new Critical Hit tables ... simple death was replaced with maiming and disfiguring. At one time our party was composed of "Lefty", "Stumpy", a mage in a wheelchair (well, technically more like a wheelbarrow), and two blind halflings. (The last provided years of proverbial wisdom.) |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 17:59:24
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When a player does something very stupid, and you even warn him it is stupid, then he should have to live with his decision (or die, in this case). If the rest of the party is not at fault (aside from the fact they need to make some new friends), then you need to modify your Dungeon on-the-fly (I do it all the time).
On the third try, a demon lord (the guy who first arranged for the creation of these items for some nefarious purpose) shows up and whisks the player to the ninth layer of hell. It places a curse upon the PC's soul so that he can never be resurrected, and the curse is SO powerful it reaches into other planes, including Earth's, and makes it so the player can no longer roll up a character in one of your games ever again. The curse also doesn't allow your offspring or any future descendants to play with his offspring or descendants (which shouldn't be a problem, since he is obviously too stupid for any one to want to breed with).
Then shove him out of your house, preferably into a raging blizzard without his coat. At this point you and your other players can now enjoy discussing Darwin. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Oct 2010 18:01:10 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 18:45:16
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Agreed, the rest of the party is not at fault and shouldn't suffer for one member's stupidity.
But I'd already been soft enough. And peer pressure is a wonderful method of policing groups of people; had the other players threatened First Player he might have chosen different actions, had they been a little more proactive I would have happily given them bonuses on the attempt.
Incidentally, every roll of the dice at my table (DM and players alike) are clattered onto the Cookie Sheet Of Doom, in plain view of all. As DM, I never fudge the numbers. Of course I might bias the chances towards certain results by applying modifiers. I often roll a full set of dice simultaneously so my players have no clue what I'm doing or what the numbers mean. The logic is that if the outcome is not really random then no dice are even rolled; if the outcome is meant to be random then it must be truly unpredictable every time. It actually adds a lot of enjoyment (and stress) to the game for everybody. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 01:26:11
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Hm. I can only think of two idiotic decisions by players on top of my head.
One player was greatly upset that the other players decided the best course of action was to take out an evil lycans thieves/wizards guild that has been harrasing them since day one, rather then go rescue the player's clone's ex-lover. (....Yeah I know. It was a simicrime of a player, that had to move away. In game he decided to /betray/ the group because he wanted to be evil and asked if it could be a dopplganger or something. Then he moved back and wanted to replay his barbarian, so yeah... clone).
Anyway, rather then go off on his own, or try to work with the party, the player decided his character goes insane at that moment, and starts to laugh manaically and as loud as possible, making as much noise as possible in the guild to attract the lycans. The party had to take him out, but he had such massive hps, it took awhile....
The second one, was just a player being stupid because he wanted to play yet another different character, (His fifth one in just a few games), and demanded to play a wizard this time. I told him that the current location they were at, (Middle of deep forest in Chult) that a wizard of fifth level would be difficult to place, espcally since the village they were at were mainly barbarians and forgerers. He said his character would be self taught. As in taught himself to read. Without any help, or any books, or any known wizard in any area near them. Again, I stressed that currently no, he'd had to wait til the party was in a more populated area.
So he decided to be a rogue. A little more reasonable, until he maxed out everything on finding mechincal traps, picking pockets and locks, forging papers. Hard to learn and teach self in a village of foresters...but whatever. I allowed it, but told him that he'd have to learn those skills by the other player rogue before he could do it. Just do some minor RP, and he learns the ksills fast. Pretty reasonable I thought.
His first action after the party helped with a giant hunt and to celebrate the village success of the year, he decides to rape the female player's character. In the middle of the party, in front of everyone.
Not only did the party kill the character, with the help of the village even, but we disallowed the player from playing after telling him that is really going to far. He demanded to stay, as it was just his character to rape girls.
A chaotic good character.....
We don't miss him one bit. Though I did track his message board down, and he has his own group, that players hate as he has such huge amount of sick house rules, like females lose some attribatues, cant be certain classes, all of them must spend two skill points to raise one skill, even class skills, and take FOUR skill points to raise a cross skill. And other stuff.
Needless to say, he doesn't have many players for long. |
I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 01:46:45
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There's plenty of precedent - historical and fictional - for gender restrictions on available "class" options. I can even understand the logic of gender adjustments to attribute scores.
But it works both ways, there's gotta be balance; which is another way of saying that either gender choice should be equally appealing. Maybe the females suffer -1 Str/Dex and have a level cap as fighters or thieves ... well, if that's the case then males might suffer -1 Int/Wis and have level caps as priests and wizards, as an example. Details of that sort were actually written in pages of charts and tables within 1e rules. Didn't make the game any better, btw.
Personally, I'd rather just sidestep the whole issue. Gender has no real impact on game mechanics. There are a few rare exceptions (drow priestesses and wizards, for instance), but they aren't based on arbitrary perceptions of either gender being inferior to the other (well, at least not on my perceptions).
To be honest, it sounds like your complaint is more about a particular individual who's ignorance/stupidity is expressed outside the game as well. The game is simply an arena where he amuses himself by bullying others. Polymorph into NPC is a common fate for such players at my table; there's always somebody new to fill that empty chair. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Oct 2010 02:03:29 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 04:09:47
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| My condolences to you, dracons, for having to endure such a horrific troll of a player. I have also had problems with players who frequently change characters, but they NEVER went THAT far. Usually, it was a case of a min/max player with a bit of ADHD getting bored with a Pc as soon as he had "broken" it, and wanting to try something else. But it sounds like you had someone who did not need to be playing AT ALL. Sounds like a disturbed individual, to boot. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 05:05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracons
Not only did the party kill the character, with the help of the village even, but we disallowed the player from playing after telling him that is really going to far. He demanded to stay, as it was just his character to rape girls.
A chaotic good character.....
All of my characters have been male... And none of them would have allowed this. For every one of them, it would have been in-character to do what the other PCs did: attack as soon as he tried that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 21:33:05
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| Ick, just ick. I've played with some wierdos and even done an evil campaign once, but that is just too much. |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Fizilbert
Learned Scribe
USA
123 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 17:36:19
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This thread reminds me of a T-shirt I saw for sale at Dragon Con.
It reads:
Five Gallons of Ale...3GP
50FT Hemp Rope...5GP
Ten Foot Pole...7GP
Donkey...10GP
Completely derailing the gamermaster's plot with Donkey Bondage...PRICELESS |
Fiz
Level 10 Vice-president
World of Elethril |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Gripe about your players
