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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 07:35:40
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Hi there, I was wondering, canonically, what the best cities, oh, five or so in the campaign setting presented in the 3.X books for setting up a magic item business would be, as well as the best cities for doing adventurer style 'quick sales', which is what I presume that 50% price for looted items comes from. This would be DR 1350+, pre spellplague (the DM is going to branch from canon with regards to all the spellplague and tons of gods dying in the late 1370's, 1380's. The specific year isn't really defined too heavily). Ideally, the main idea is they have a large density of wizards, good access to trade and expensive trade goods and gems, lots of powerful adventurers with money to burn go there, and it has a huuuuge population and a lot of demand, and that has a banking system (so presumably some Lawful institutions, access to credit, etc.). Also, it would hopefully be fairly cosmopolitan, with a wide variety of races, and fairly well written up in books and setting materials and stuff. Also, it'd be nice if it specifically a culture that wasn't terribly upset about the idea of magical and mundane innovation! Maybe if it specifically had a lot of temples useful to this sort of mindset, or some wizard's guilds or whatever would be nice... So far I've got, uhhh, Waterdeep. And that's about it... does anyone have any suggestions, or guidelines, or places to look? What are the cities with the largest population on Toril that are also wealthy, trade-filled cities in general? Thanks!
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 10:37:21
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| Calimport, Athkatla (but you need to talk with the Cowled Wizards), Selgaunt, Iriaebor, Westgate |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 14:52:14
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| waterdeep |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 15:23:49
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Athkatla would be great, except for the general hatred of arcane magic (don't believe the Baldur's Gate games about the Coweled Wizards, they're actually a secret society trying their best to help wizards survive in the hostile environment).
Besides the cities already mentioned, I think you can add Silverymoon and Neverwinter. Neverwinter's already a trading city, and it's a far more responsive populace than, say, Luskan. Silverymoon even more so.
Raven's Bluff would probably also be a good option. It was well-detailed thanks to the RPGA modules and a really fantastic gaming supplement back in 2e. Lots of people, well-regarded wizards, plus outside threats that would encourage the accumulation of magical firepower. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Ralderick Hallowshaw
Acolyte
Italy
36 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 15:46:10
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What about Shining Lands (Durpar in particular)?
Here, durpari seem to have a good attitude towards arcane magic, altough they can't be considered as cosmopolitan as other cities cited in previous posts. |
"Adventurers are best used to slay monsters. Sooner or later, they become your worst monsters, and you have to hire new ones to do the obvious thing" - Ralderick Hallowshaw, Jester - from To Rule A Realm, From Turret To Midden, published circa The Year of the Bloodbird
And forgive me for my bad use of English language!  |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 18:42:22
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| Good idea. Durpar is a merchant nation much like Amn or Sembia, doesn't have any problems with wizards, and sits in the middle of several trade routes (mainly to Zakhara and Kara-tur, though also to Faerun). It's way out of the way, though, and didn't get all that well detailed, which might count against it. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 18:52:14
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I would venture to add Suzail to that list.
Cormyr is a land that invites adventurers to explore its borders and has created the requisite laws and organizations (both Crown and Merchant) necessary to buy and sell found goods, magic items and other odds and ends turned up by adventurers (i.e. treasure).
Though it wasn't written up in any 3E Realms books, Suzail—and the rest of Cormyr—is filled with numerous mages (and not just War Wizards) and is an excellent port of trade and commerce.
Waterdeep and Silverymoon would be my other recommendations. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 19:16:41
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| Airspur is a nice hub of merchant activity as well. |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 21:12:23
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Is Airspur in Toril in 3.xe, in 1350-1370? Everything I can find says its on Abeir at this time... It'd require planar travel to get there, right?
What planar metropolises are canon as being in 3.Xe FR? City of Brass, I'd guess. Sigil? |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 13 Oct 2010 21:14:24 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 21:24:27
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Everything you find is wrong, then. Abeir doesn't exist in 3.5. It only shows up in 4.0 (so, after 1385 DR). Airspur is where is has always been.
As for 3.5 planar mechanics, I'd say just go with Planescape and be done with it. Makes a whole lot more sense than that stupid Tree ever did. Which makes Sigil your primary planar city, but with dozens of others scattered throughout the planes. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 21:29:23
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Uh, now I'm confused.
from the sources I have on hand (mostly wiki right now):
Airspur is a 4e city, in Akanul, on Abeir, transplanted to Toril after a certain date.
Abeir isn't written up in any 3.5e source, and is basically completely unknown in the dates I mentioned. Unless you wanted to shoehorn some of the 4e areas that appeared via planar travel somehow, you can't get to Abeir, and you can't get to Akanul, and you can't get to Airspur.
Correct? |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 21:52:47
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Pre-Spellplague Airspur was a trading city, but not in the league of others mentioned, it had a large half-orc population
why the genasi took the name of the old destroyed city, I don't know
as for the great planar metropolises, beside Sigil and the City of Brass, there are Opus (Netherese), Brightwater (the city where Tymora, Waukeen, Sune, Lliira and Sharess live  ) and Dweomerheart (Mystra, Azuth etc.) |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 22:01:48
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| Ah, okay, so two different cities named airspur, then! That confused me! This one is in Chessenta... |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 22:53:34
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| Wait, what? |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 22:59:13
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Airspir preplague was half-orc populated and post plague its a genasi city... with motes and its much more colorful.
I gave my list already at the wotc site....
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 00:25:37
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Oh so it is the exact same city, and the geography around it changed from toril-based (chessenta!) to abeir based (akanul!), as did it racial makeup?
*tries to understand*
Also, I checked Shining South, but it doesn't say anything about any particular CITIES in Durpar.
Where can I find something that talks about specific cities in Durpar, or at least, the largest trade city in that area? Anything fanon on them? |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 14 Oct 2010 00:28:11 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 01:04:39
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Pretty much. Here's Airspur's original write-up, from FR 10 Old Empires:
"Airspur
This trading port was once one of the most important in western Chessenta, but has since been overtaken by Reth. It is still a powerful presence in the region.
Airspur is known (some say infamous) for the many half-orcs that populate it: 30% of the population of the city is half-orc. The city is currently in an aggressive phase, having allied with Soorenar in its current war against Cimbar. The city fields an army of 3,000 troops, of which 500 are archers and 500 are cavalry. The city has a population of 20,000. Three notable mercenaries use Airspur as its base: the Sailors of the Crimson Sea, the Wardogs, and the Sunlords. Many of these have fought recently in Chondath and have sustained heavy losses. The lord of Airspur is Khrulis (8th-level half-orc fighter), a crafty and pragmatic, though greedy, ruler."
I don't play 4e, so I don't know what it is post-Spellplague.
Do you have the original Shining South (FR 16)? In it are descriptions of about a dozen cities in Durpar, Var, and Estagund. I think there was also a late-3e novel set in Durpar. I forget the title, but it had a couple of Deep Imaskari, and ended up giving a bunch of people crystal grafts. It was definitely one of the weirder, and less Realmsian, novels, but should also provide some feel about the area. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
Edited by - Hoondatha on 14 Oct 2010 01:18:00 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 01:14:07
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quote:
Airspur existed as a city-state on the border of Chessenta
and Chondath, sometimes allying itself with
the other city-states of Chessenta and at other times
siding with Chondath. While not initially threatened
during the Year of Blue Fire, Airspur saw massive
destruction in 1386 DR as the Toril’s sibling world of
Abeir replaced much of the nearby landscape. A huge
crevasse opened in the city and the sea moved. Those
who did not die fled.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20090724
From there Genasi refugees flooded the area and eventually inhabited the city abandoned by the previous inhabitants. |
Edited by - Matt James on 14 Oct 2010 01:14:34 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 01:16:31
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Ok, here's a big conflict between 2e Realms and 3e Realms. In the 2e Realms, Vaelan is not a human city. It's the capital of Veldorn, the self-ruling kingdom (more like conglomeration of duchies) of monsters. Then in 3e it's suddenly a human trading city. Take your pick. I haven't reread the 3e Shining South in a while; did they get rid of Veldorn completely?
Anyway, in the original Shining South, Heldapan was the largest and most important city on the Golden Water (not just in Durpar). Here's its write-up, if you're curious:
"Heldapan
Heldapan, the largest city in the Shining Lands, is the capital of the region. This Durparian city, which boasts a population of 50,000, is home to the powerful Council of Merchants. It has the largest trading market to the cast of the huge markets of Amn. Literally anything in the world can be found here.
All of the "Chakas of 31," the leading chakas in the Shining Lands, have at least some sort of headquarters in Heldapan. It is here that the decisions of the council are handed down and here that the biggest deals are made.
The town boasts huge docks, capable of handling over a hundred ships at once. The docks are always busy. Ships can sail the Golden Waters, even during the rainy season, so trade continues undiminished." |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
Edited by - Hoondatha on 14 Oct 2010 01:17:14 |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 07:51:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Athkatla would be great, except for the general hatred of arcane magic (don't believe the Baldur's Gate games about the Coweled Wizards, they're actually a secret society trying their best to help wizards survive in the hostile environment).
Hmmm, its hard to ignore the lore about Cowled Wizards in BG2. To counter the statement you made here, I guess (as I can't use the BG2 lore, as it isn't officially canon, and you want it ignored ) all I've to offer is that given the adventure hooks about'em in 2e Lands of Intrigue, its arguable that the organization as a whole started out w/good intentions, but now don't seem to be as you present them, despite their potential claims to be so. That and I can't think of a canon source for you to claim'em as you have!
Lands of Intrigue free d/l link found here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13961
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As for the OP, Gavinfoxx, it appears as though the city of Baldur's Gate may be perfect for your campaign.
The city and surrounding region seem to have plenty of reputable wizards written in canon (and thus inferrable it has 'a large density of'em'), the city itself is an economic power, sea-faring and land-bound adventurers frequent and even live there, is fairly cosmopolitan (fair nobility population), folk of all races are found within that are visiting and are residents, plenty of lore on the city even outside of the PC game series and console game series, and there's a museum dedicated to Gond, showing the population enjoys magical and mundane innovation.
But keep in mind, the trouble is that if someone goes actively looking around the city for magic items - particularly those that can be used effectively in battle - this person will invariably be inviting unwanted attention onto him or herself, and there'd be no words wherewith to counter any suspicion.
In essence, anyone who enters Sorcerous Sundries (the main adventurer's store in the city), be they of reputation or no, will draw attention from all factions in the city. This whether they look like a threat or not. |
Edited by - bladeinAmn on 14 Oct 2010 07:56:58 |
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Ralderick Hallowshaw
Acolyte
Italy
36 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 13:23:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Ok, here's a big conflict between 2e Realms and 3e Realms. In the 2e Realms, Vaelan is not a human city. It's the capital of Veldorn, the self-ruling kingdom (more like conglomeration of duchies) of monsters. Then in 3e it's suddenly a human trading city. Take your pick. I haven't reread the 3e Shining South in a while; did they get rid of Veldorn completely?
Veldorn still exists in 3rd edition as the 4th country of the Shining Lands although occupied by monsters.
Shining South (3rd edition version) provides an explanation for the apparent incongrunce about Vaelan that you have mentioned: in the sidebar at page 118 and in the description of Old Vaelan (the one mentioned in 2edition material), at page 122, and of Vaelan (the old Vaelanthar, abbreviated), at page 123. |
"Adventurers are best used to slay monsters. Sooner or later, they become your worst monsters, and you have to hire new ones to do the obvious thing" - Ralderick Hallowshaw, Jester - from To Rule A Realm, From Turret To Midden, published circa The Year of the Bloodbird
And forgive me for my bad use of English language! |
Edited by - Ralderick Hallowshaw on 14 Oct 2010 13:23:51 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2010 : 05:00:28
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I personally think Zhentil Keep or Hillsfar (depending on your campaign date) would be excellent. Perhaps one of the cities of Thay. Or Menzoberranzan.
All those machievellian criminals (nobility and street trash alike) need a constant influx of specialized magical tools and weapons for their arsenal. Very lucrative trade indeed, assuming your dweomermongers can somehow manage to operate securely and safely in those cities.
If you position your little magic cartel strategically around a large geography, and assuming you've established access to some sort of permanent Teleportals or somesuch, then you could even offer to move people and things as one of your special services. You'd need to be very careful about this - Zhents would smuggle their agents, troops, caravans, and all sorts of contraband goods to Waterdeep or Suzail ... and of course this would quickly draw the attention of meddling agencies like Khelben Blackstaff, Vangerdahast, the Harpers, and every other greedy/ambitious evil power group in the land. The last thing you'd want is your shop in Suzail "confiscated" by the Crown, or the Cult of the Dragon waging a war against your shop in Hillsfar. Just sayin' |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 04:28:59
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Just FYI, where the game is NOW, we're are in Ilmwatch in Impiltur, and plan on generally staying north of the sea of fallen stars, maybe moving west...
My character comes from Rashemen, so the, uh, only thing she really would want to go to Thay for is to, uh, foment open revolt against the mageocracy.
Anyway, she's a Druid traveling with an Artificer [Eberron style, not gnomish artificer]), and we are going vaguely west, and she wants to eventually get to the Gulthmere Forest... and the Artificer HATES pirates. So for now, stay out of Westgate, and do lots of artificering and monemaking in Selgaunt, before moving on to bigger and better things? Cause as far as corrupt trade cities, Selgaunt seems to be... outdone by other places?
The other long term stuff I'd like to do with this character is, "Find the single most polluting city on the face of Abeir-Toril, and destroy the parts of it that pollute forever more", and then because she's trying to be good (or at least get back to neutral good after being true neutral, which destroying large parts of a city might do...). I think that city is... *checks* Hiyal. Oh boy. 600,000. That's gonna be a high level task, at least level 14 (I'm an optimizer, hee...)
She also wants to do the 'vengeance against Thay' thing...
...And visit various planar locations that were mentioned in this thread, as well of, of COURSE, House of Nature (she's gonna be a Planar Shepherdess for House of Nature...so going there isn't gonna be too much of an issue...)
Between all these things, I'd like to do the sorts of things that the artificer would like to do too, which so far is, "go to big cities and do commerce!" and "Get vengeance on people who are pirates of water trade and coastal raiders". I do eventually want to go to Lantan, to help the artificer's character with 'stuff' ideas. And also that temple of Gond at Baldur's Gate... hmm, I've got to figure out a rough location travel guide thing... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 05:40:05
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"the single most polluting city on the face of Abeir-Toril"
That's an interesting twist. I've never really considered the issue. Here's my quick thoughts:
I suppose that, as always, the most pollution (all types) will be found wherever the largest/densest populations are. So, basically the largest and oldest and most populated cities - places like Waterdeep, Cormyr, Sembia ...
They'd probably let most pollution just flow down the closest river, or perhaps even dump barges of trash a few miles off the coast, or bury it in the local catacomb/dungeon complex that is inevitably found near every population center in the Realms. Although unlike the real world, there might be complications from, say, Druids (like your character), elves and sylvan sorts, aquatic civilizations (good or evil), perhaps even underground dwellers. Having too much trash around will attract pests like rats and kobolds, not to mention seedy scum and scavengers of all races.
Sure, civilization may have figured out some technological innovations (Roman-style sewers, aquaducts, and baths, for example) - that helps a lot. Of course in RL we don't have access to clerics with convenient surefire ways to do stuff like Cure Disease and Create Water, so maybe cities in the magic-dependent Realms aren't quite as confident/developed in technology. I suppose the largest cities with the largest problems might have devised all sorts of magical methods for cleanup and disposal - organic disposal (slimes and jellies, carrion scavengers, rust monsters), elemental incinerators, extradimensional (or ethereal, astral, planar) dumping, teleport or gate, spheres of annihilation. Maybe the divine powers in charge of nature actually clean a lot of this garbage up behind the scenes, one of those magical properties of the land itself, you never know.
Mining operations (ahem, Dwarves) are notorious for creating huge toxic slag runoffs and burning tons and tons of coal/oil. At least they're unlikely to use modern-world strip-mining methods. I can only speculate that they've somehow engineered a way to recycle or dispose much of their waste material underground.
Magical pollution (ahem, Elves) is probably somewhat analogous to radioactive waste - there's very little of it (because a little goes a long way), but it's hideously potent and deadly, there's really no safe/proper way to get rid of it, and it stays active for a very long time. We've all seen what happens when a mythal or magical item starts rotting. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Oct 2010 05:50:27 |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 20:35:58
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Well... look here:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Hiyal
It's the only relevant city on a search of the forgotten realms wiki, of the word 'pollution'.
So that's what I'm thinking of! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 04:26:48
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| This city of Hiyal sort of reminds me of Detroit. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 06:06:56
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Yea, that's what I was thinking. An Arabic Detroit... I just need to figure out the lowest level at which my character can, you know, survive a direct assault on their entire industrial production capability, and produce a long term change in doing so!
...And after that I guess we can remove 'any city on that continent' from our list of places to trade stuff at. |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 18 Oct 2010 06:07:27 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 07:24:05
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Ah, you and I think differently about such problems.
It's not about your character's level. It's about his allies. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 20:06:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Ah, you and I think differently about such problems.
It's not about your character's level. It's about his allies.
Hehhh... not... necessarily. =D =D I, um, asked that question about destroying the industry of that city on a different forum, and I got some... really interesting answers. Most of the options for winning are evil though. So if she wants to NOT be evil, she might need to use much more tact! They mostly figured that a direct assault should be possible around 13th level, assuming they can get in and get out before high level wizard types teleport in!
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9737.0 |
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What are the best cities in Toril to sell stuff?
