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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 01:07:26
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So I'm reading through the Abyssal Plague series; got through Temple of Yellow Skulls, Sword of the Gods, and am just starting Shadowbane.
While reading Sword of the Gods I noticed a somewhat odd scene where a character, a genasi thief, is set upon by a group of hired thugs, one of which is a female tiefling who does nothing but laugh like an idiot throughout the scene. Specially attention is given to the point that this character, who is never named and is killed off within pages of being introduced, is an idiot. She also seems out of place in the group which consists of an earthsoul genasi and a pair of orcs; you get three brutes and a stupid tiefling woman to round things out.
Thought it was odd at the time but didn't pay it much mind as it was such a minor thing.
Then I'm reading Shadowbane and there's this rather extended scene where the main character interrogates/beats information out of a Luskan street thug who happens to be a tiefling. The thug is uncouth, cowardly, not all too bright, and rather easily handled by the main character. Granted, this early in the book I'd be surprised to find anything that gives a protagonist trouble, let alone a street thug. But still, there was a conscious decision to make this character a tiefling.
Now, two instances don't make a pattern, but it got me thinking to Salvatore's ongoing Neverwinter series, where tieflings also feature and their potrayal is less than flattering. One character, shaping up to be the main antagonist or at least a main antagonist of the trilogy is a petty, egotistical child rapist who displays incompetence as a military leader and is afraid of his own slave(granted that slave is Artimis Entreri). Besides him, there's a crippled warlock who's sole character trait seems to be tormenting Herzgo Alegni(the aforementioned petty, egotistical child rapist) who is in all likelihood his father, and several minor, unnamed cultists of Asmodeus who are described as fanatical, stupid, but at least someone capable in a fight. One instance that comes to mind is when Herzgo comes on a band of the cultists intending to kill them, making it very clear from the start he's their enemy, one of them (specifically pointed out as a tiefling female) enthusiastically states that he should join them, based solely on his race and her desire to bone him after having seen him for about a minute.
Now, I'm fairly sure these were all coincidence and there's not a mass conspiracy against tieflings among the authors Wizards gets to write these novels, but I'm left wondering why 4e tieflings are seemingly being pigeon-holed into roles of unintelligent antagonists. Seems to me that WotC, having gone through the effort of promoting tieflings to first string player race status, giving them a common origin and uniform look to streamline them, would be trying to promote tieflings.
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 01:36:05
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| *Sighs* Authors often do not know canon, however that tiefling might have had low Wis. or Int. RAS never followed it, Lisa apologized for not knowing it. Move on, not something WotC cares about. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 02:53:44
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| Chosen, there are positive Tiefling depictions. The Tiefling in the Blades of the Moonsea trilogy (I believe his name was Sarth) is portrayed as a good guy and intelligent. The Tieflings sisters in Brimstone Angels are portrayed positively (and quite well). |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 03:37:33
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Obviously, I'm not an author for WotC... But I had fun coming up with a tiefling paladin for one of my Hooks in the Candlekeep Compendium, Volume VII.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Mar 2012 03:38:16 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 05:33:37
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As a guess (and that's all it is), I would suggest that it has to do with the overall rather unflattering portrayal of tieflings in 4th Edition as a whole.
They went from being odd-humans, with either an odd feature or a hint of something else, to an almost-cambion with an evil reputation. Now, I am not saying that such things define each individual, no more than Irish people's reputation for being besotted, whiskey-soaked louts (being mostly Irish, I feel I can safely use that example) define them as a people, but as a race, they may not be held in the best esteem by many, and a writer's impressions can easily devolve from that point. Reflex? Misinformation? Both?
I would not play a 4th Edition tiefling by choice - perhaps there is an element of that in the stories? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 06:14:02
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I haven't read the novels from which these examples were drawn, so I'm curious about from who's point of view the narrative is presented? Are the descriptions of these tieflings and their actions coloured by the bias of the (presumably human) characters who tell the tale?
Something of the sort was seen in various Dragonlance novels, wherein lowly gully dwarves were "seen" from some differing viewpoints. Narrative from Raistlin's perspective eventually saw these dwarves in a nearly sympathetic way, as pitiful misunderstood creatures with some surprising qualities. Narrative from the perspective of other Heroes of the Lance was more disdainfully judgemental, Flint's opinionated intolerance could see gully dwarves as nothing more than base and embarassing vermin.
Besides, art has long exploited ugliness as a means to depict evil. Tieflings and cambions have as much chance of having an attractive square-chinned high-cheekboned straight-nosed eloquent "noble" appearance as of a beady-eyed hook-nosed deformed and monstrously hideous one. But people are disinclined to think of beautiful creatures as being evil; our expectations (and primal instincts) are hardwired from childhood onwards to fearfully equate ugly and strange people with stupidity, duplicity, treachery, cruelty, and danger. Disposable evil extras are never beautiful, except perhaps as an accessory to a beautiful evil mastermind who's inner ugliness is revealed through extensive description of his or her "ugly" thoughts and deeds (indeed, many such villains deliberately cultivate their beauty to use as a weapon, plus they serve as morally worthy examples of extreme hubris and obsessive vanity). Faust is a masterful example of the concept, though it has been explored by countless authors since classical times.
And, as always, one can always highlight the qualities of a hero by emphasizing the despicable qualities of his villainous opponents. Manly men only fight worthy adversaries, heroes always fight fair and never harm the weak and innocent, yet villains always take what they want, fight dirty and exploit "good is dumb" weakness, yes? I doubt this Shadowbane protagonist would seem as "heroic" if he interrogated/beat the information out of an uncouth, cowardly, dimwitted street thug who happened to be an elf or an halfling. Imagine how questionable the scene would be if this street thug just happened to also be female, a child, or a blind and lame cripple - tieflings can be conveniently scrappy ugly tough mouthy bastards who only respond to reason explained through force.
I'm curious how Erik would respond to this scroll. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Mar 2012 06:39:44 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 08:52:51
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| -Given their 'evil' heritage, and the fact that they're 'different', I would understand why they might be discriminated against in various places. So, Tiefling hate by people in the setting, that can make sense. Portraying them as unintelligent...Chalk it up to small sample size. Of the tens of thousands of Tieflings out there, the couple seen in said novels were some of the dumb ones- plenty more exist that haven't been featured in novels or sourcebooks that are smarter, more cunning, more conniving, etc. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Salacar
Acolyte
Denmark
33 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 09:26:43
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I personally think Paul Kemp did quite well with Magadon Kest from the Erevis Cale books, the character was likeable and pretty damn cool. Granted I haven't read that many 4th edition novels with Tieflings in them, but if I had to take a guess about their "bad reputation" among writers, I'd probably also chalk it up to them simply being much more easy to vilify thanks to their heritage and physical looks.
Same with aasimars, pretty easy to turn into good-guy characters =) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 15:24:17
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| I hope that the 5e tieflings go back to their pre-4e look. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 18:09:15
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I've always been preferential towards traditional tieflings (as originally presented in 2E Planescape) and cambions (as presented in both editions of AD&D+2E). The 4E-style homogenous species of redskinned ramheads never appealed to me. They might be fine in some places, even expected in some of the darker corners in Planescape - but I refused (indeed, still refuse) to retcon my Realms to accomodate any "established" populations of these new folk.
Having said all that ... a tiefling is a tiefling regardless of cosmetic variations, and the 4E treatment of "how tieflings fit in society" (substantive, not cosmetic) is generally insightful and well-presented given the overall Realms setting in which they're a part. Part of that treatment is what amounts to being outright racism against tieflings - after all, they might or might not be decent people, but they are unquestionably fiendspawn. Pre-4E bias against tieflings was more of the "hire adventurers to kill the demon" variety than any form of societal tolerance. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Mar 2012 18:13:32 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 18:12:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
I hope that the 5e tieflings go back to their pre-4e look.
Likewise.
The artist who drew them for 4th Edition was superb in their craft, certainly, but I was thinking 'cambion' the entire time. It was mainly the uniform look of the horns and tail that destroyed the concept of 'this is a tiefling' for me. The skin...okay, I can accept that maybe a reddish tint is a dominant feature for someone with heritage out of the Lower Planes...but reddish-tinted skin proves nothing.
Tieflings as described in Planescape are the superior appearance. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 18:21:37
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| Well, red-pigmented flesh can prove you've lived in the Savage Coast long enough to metabolize invasive quantities of cinnabar. I suppose that - contrary to the 4E artwork we've seen thus far - tieflings might possess a variety of possible flesh tones, some might have only vestigial horns and tails, some might have cloven hooves or emit the stench of brimstone. Then again, such variety in tieflings is really just another expression of my idealized grognard preferences. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 18:50:35
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| I liked it better when each tiefling was both rare and unique, not some homogonized race with their own cities that to me don't really fit in the Realms |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 22:38:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I liked it better when each tiefling was both rare and unique, not some homogonized race with their own cities that to me don't really fit in the Realms
-This, though they still aren't exactly homogenized. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 18:20:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I haven't read the novels from which these examples were drawn, so I'm curious about from who's point of view the narrative is presented? Are the descriptions of these tieflings and their actions coloured by the bias of the (presumably human) characters who tell the tale?
Something of the sort was seen in various Dragonlance novels, wherein lowly gully dwarves were "seen" from some differing viewpoints. Narrative from Raistlin's perspective eventually saw these dwarves in a nearly sympathetic way, as pitiful misunderstood creatures with some surprising qualities. Narrative from the perspective of other Heroes of the Lance was more disdainfully judgemental, Flint's opinionated intolerance could see gully dwarves as nothing more than base and embarassing vermin.
Besides, art has long exploited ugliness as a means to depict evil. Tieflings and cambions have as much chance of having an attractive square-chinned high-cheekboned straight-nosed eloquent "noble" appearance as of a beady-eyed hook-nosed deformed and monstrously hideous one. But people are disinclined to think of beautiful creatures as being evil; our expectations (and primal instincts) are hardwired from childhood onwards to fearfully equate ugly and strange people with stupidity, duplicity, treachery, cruelty, and danger. Disposable evil extras are never beautiful, except perhaps as an accessory to a beautiful evil mastermind who's inner ugliness is revealed through extensive description of his or her "ugly" thoughts and deeds (indeed, many such villains deliberately cultivate their beauty to use as a weapon, plus they serve as morally worthy examples of extreme hubris and obsessive vanity). Faust is a masterful example of the concept, though it has been explored by countless authors since classical times.
And, as always, one can always highlight the qualities of a hero by emphasizing the despicable qualities of his villainous opponents. Manly men only fight worthy adversaries, heroes always fight fair and never harm the weak and innocent, yet villains always take what they want, fight dirty and exploit "good is dumb" weakness, yes? I doubt this Shadowbane protagonist would seem as "heroic" if he interrogated/beat the information out of an uncouth, cowardly, dimwitted street thug who happened to be an elf or an halfling. Imagine how questionable the scene would be if this street thug just happened to also be female, a child, or a blind and lame cripple - tieflings can be conveniently scrappy ugly tough mouthy bastards who only respond to reason explained through force.
I'm curious how Erik would respond to this scroll.
The example from Sword of the Gods was from the perspective of a genasi, who was one of the main characters. What struck me as odd about that particular example upon reflection was that aside from that scene, Sword of the Gods could be described as a commercial for the 4e planetouched races; the protagonist is a deva, the main supporting cast counts two genasi in it, it takes place in a genasi city and offers a rather fair, complex view of them as a people, with both positive and negative portrayals. If I hadn't already been sold on 4e devas and genasi before reading this book, I probably would have been after. So it struck me as odd that a tiefling, the other planetouched race appears only as a simpleton in a band of thugs. And it just left me wondering why the author specifically chose a tiefling for this minor role when a human or a half orc or anything else really would have worked just as well.
The scene in Shadowbane is more third person though still from the protagonist's view point. The protagonist, however, knows the tiefling he's beating the information out of; they grew up together. Which would, of course, put him in an excellent position to judge whether the man was a lovable rogue with a hidden heart of gold or a simple street thug(with the correct answer of course being the latter). Though as a point, I wouldn't necessarily list "heroic" as one of this character's personality traits(mind you, I'm the last person in the world who'd hold that against him), what with nearly killing some guards from Waterdeep who were just doing their job just to get into Luskan to start with.
I have officially added Blades of the Moonsea and Brimstone Angels to my to read list, thanks for the suggestions Tyrant. I suppose I'm in the minority as I'm a huge fan of the 4e tieflings in that they now strike me as an actual race that has a reason to exist where as before they could have just as easily been a template you could slap on a human and call it a day. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 20:58:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I have officially added Blades of the Moonsea and Brimstone Angels to my to read list, thanks for the suggestions Tyrant. I suppose I'm in the minority as I'm a huge fan of the 4e tieflings in that they now strike me as an actual race that has a reason to exist where as before they could have just as easily been a template you could slap on a human and call it a day.
I will go ahead and tell you that Brimstone Angels offers some insight into there being a Tiefling race with a common origin. I wrote a short review of the book in the novels section a while ago that was mostly spoiler free. It is just bits and pieces (that are central to the plot), but there is a sequel in the works so more may yet be revealed. I do not think it is safe to assume that all Tieflings share this origin however. The ones that do breed true though. Brimstone Angels also features a number of other Hellish characters (Cambions, Archdukes, Succubi, cultists, etc). It does also speak about the persecution Tieflings usually endure.
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Tiefling Hate
