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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 03:11:55
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I think he is now listed as chaotic evil, matching his Patron Grummish.
However, toward the later parts of his development Obould did not strike me as the least bit evil. Lawful sure but evil? Would non evil "chosen" create conflict with Grummish?
Also, now that Obould is an exarch, could you guys envision him attempting to ultimately overthrow Grummish?
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Edited by - jordanz on 12 Aug 2010 03:12:50
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 03:31:22
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Well, he was ready to destroy kingdoms (he did in fact) to get its own for his fellows. He also showed no pity/patience for failure/treason. I think he was evil even then, though maybe not as much as the typical villain. That made him the most interesting character of the trilogy.
Lawful? I don't know. Sure, he had a a thousand time more honor than a regular orc, but I'm not sure that makes him lawful. His rule is still triggered by the fact that he is the strongest, and he will stay the leader until he falls (no matter how or by whom). Seems chaotic to me.
So yeah, I think he's CE, just not the chaotic stupid we are used to see in novels.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticStupid |
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Darkranger85
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 06:12:09
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I'm not trying to be a killjoy or anything. Especially since I'm new here and all lol.
But your subject is a fairly big spoiler. One that I didn't want to know lol.
I'm in The Thousand Orcs. (Awesome book) |
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Ruul
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 13:00:32
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| Not really a spoiler since it didn't happen in a novel. Just like Halaster dying, the Manshoon Wars, and Bane returning.... just kinda happened. =) |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 13:01:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkranger85
I'm not trying to be a killjoy or anything. Especially since I'm new here and all lol.
But your subject is a fairly big spoiler. One that I didn't want to know lol.
I'm in The Thousand Orcs. (Awesome book)
Sorry Darkranger, but don't worry, his 'ascension' is not covered in the events of the books at all (including the Orc king), it is in the 4th ed campaign setting (a few decades after the novels).
Still, sorry to spoil it for ya. |
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Darkranger85
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 16:58:12
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| I apologize. I assumed! :-) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 13:55:07
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| yeah but maybe he thought Obould would die... |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 18:10:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I don't see him being the least bit chaotic. It takes a LOT of discipline and strategy to pull together that many warring tribes, lead them in a massive over-taking, and then form a new nation out of them. IMO, his alignment is WAAAY off. He should be LE, not CE.
That would make Lolth LE, or any chaotic being (demon lords, Balors) able to use strategy before bashing in through the front door. Again, don't mix chaotic evil and chaotic stupid. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 18:23:31
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I was not implying that in any way. As I said, it takes discipline, which is something that tends to be lacking in chaotic types- it's the very antithesis of chaos, after all! I in no way think of chaotic = stupid, just that CE usually has shorter-term goals and attention-spans. Lawfuls plan for the future over the long haul, not just their next big gain, as CE's like Lolth tend to do.
Not to mention the diplomacy inherent in trying to bring so many tribes together- CE would have a VERY hard time convincing that many people to follow them just because of strength! It's like the difference between Doctor Doom and Carnage- both very evil, but one's more methodical and detailed than the other in planning. That's why Obould should be LE- he shows signs of that kind of foresight and diligence. He was planning a kingdom that would remain stable after he was gone- a CE wouldn't give two craps what happened to it when they die- they just want to hang around as long as possible to keep it!
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 27 Aug 2010 18:25:12 |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 19:47:14
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| Is Obould shown in Dragon Magazine? What Handbook does he show up in? |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 08:01:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I was not implying that in any way. As I said, it takes discipline, which is something that tends to be lacking in chaotic types- it's the very antithesis of chaos, after all! I in no way think of chaotic = stupid, just that CE usually has shorter-term goals and attention-spans. Lawfuls plan for the future over the long haul, not just their next big gain, as CE's like Lolth tend to do.
Not to mention the diplomacy inherent in trying to bring so many tribes together- CE would have a VERY hard time convincing that many people to follow them just because of strength! It's like the difference between Doctor Doom and Carnage- both very evil, but one's more methodical and detailed than the other in planning. That's why Obould should be LE- he shows signs of that kind of foresight and diligence. He was planning a kingdom that would remain stable after he was gone- a CE wouldn't give two craps what happened to it when they die- they just want to hang around as long as possible to keep it!
Who says the CE is not able to forge long-standing alliances and plan a kingdom? The drow definitely can. And Obould is a novelty among orcs in the fact that he is charismatic and has more intelligence than your typical orc chieftain. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 13:23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Who says the CE is not able to forge long-standing alliances and plan a kingdom? The drow definitely can. And Obould is a novelty among orcs in the fact that he is charismatic and has more intelligence than your typical orc chieftain.
Agreed. As I read the 1000 orcs trilogy + the Orc King, Obould felt like a brilliant, Charismatic (both of which a boosted by Gruumsh's blessing IIRC), but still true to the Orc's nature. He made alliances and defeated his ennemies with cunning, but while these traits are 'lawful' (i'd say under the Red Knight territory, LN), he still ended up an Orc to me, very CE.
And the kingdom he built afterwards wasn't lawful, again IIRC. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 16:07:02
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I dunno... To me, trying to forge a kingdom and coexisting with neighbors is not something orc-ish. So from that angle, it doesn't strike me as logical that Obs got kicked upstairs for it. For massive amounts of death and destruction, yes. Forging a kingdom? No. That's more Dukagsh's gig, not Gruumsh's. Actually, it's not even a Dukagsh gig in and of itself, but he'd favor that more than Gruumie would. Duks would favor that if it lead to a more organized and better fighting force, like what he did with the scro.
If I was running a Realms campaign, Obould would either be a scro, or he'd be backed by scro... And he'd share their goal of kicking elven butt wherever it could be found. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 18:14:30
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I note that both orcs and Gruumsh One-Eye were Lawful Evil in previous editions. So Obould Manyarrows is a paragon of orcish virtue to every orc who didn't accept that 3.x mechanics should retroactively change Realmslore.
The enormous population pressures caused by rapid breeding and lack of arable land under orcish control tend to cause hordes to arise that are of necessity not very controlled. This gives non-orcs the impression that orcs are incapable of organisation.
But I've always seen the orcish ideal as being a mighty army with fearsome discipline and strong leaders crushing the world under their jackbooted feet. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 18:55:09
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Obould's actions seem somewhat Lawful Neutral. In his ways of the trade (not the war), he was fair. He even gave Drizzt the chance to fight him one on one despite the fact that he had him surrounded with 1000 orc troops.
Plus in the book "THe Two Swords" Drizzt's actions felt more chaotic evil compared to Obould. Where it came to the point that he never placed any second thoughts when Obould tried to negotiate with him. |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 19:28:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I note that both orcs and Gruumsh One-Eye were Lawful Evil in previous editions. So Obould Manyarrows is a paragon of orcish virtue to every orc who didn't accept that 3.x mechanics should retroactively change Realmslore.
The enormous population pressures caused by rapid breeding and lack of arable land under orcish control tend to cause hordes to arise that are of necessity not very controlled. This gives non-orcs the impression that orcs are incapable of organisation.
But I've always seen the orcish ideal as being a mighty army with fearsome discipline and strong leaders crushing the world under their jackbooted feet.
I dunno, we've not seen much of that... And either way, forming a kingdom and getting along with your neighbors is not "crushing the world" and all that. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 18:05:14
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| Indeed. To me, that's another indication of being Lawful rather than Chaotic. Negotiations, trade, and forming long-term alliances and planning is more of a lawful act. As I said, he wanted a LASTING kingdom. Even his charisma and intelligence seemed more geared to a Lawful way of thinking. (Sorry, Zireal, but I disagree that drow are truly capable of that- every time they try it, it ends up falling apart because of rivalries, social intrigue, and just outright jealousy and greed. Drow are chaotic to the core, and it shows in everything they do. The only one I MIGHT consider LE among them was Matron Baenre before her death. She held onto her power for so long because she could think in terms of the long view, and keep from letting petty rivalries and other distractions get in her way. Most drow would be sidetracked by that sort of thing, or at least end up using resources to deal with rivals, which could de-rail plans. Cahotic in their way of thinking, not just actions. Obould was/is not like that at ALL...) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2010 : 04:38:07
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Sarevok, the main villain of the 1st Baldur's Gate game for PC, has an alignment of Chaotic Evil, despite his negotiations, trade, and alliances he tried forging upon becoming the leader of the Iron Throne, and his aspiration of becoming a Duke of Baldur's Gate. He literally used "lawful" tendencies to serve his Chaotic Evil goals.
It's a good discussion going on here, but I think its worth noting that its a little naive to think that people of a 'chaotic' disposition aren't capable of 'neutral' behaviour. People who fall into this are allowing the AD&D alignment system to box characters into certain behaviour, instead of recognizing that the alignment is more there for general guidelines of how so and so operate, be it behind closed door or out in the open, or w/honest or ulterior motives.
As for me, I'll juss wait until I meet Obould myself here in my NWN1-OC session I got goin on |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2010 : 10:54:25
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| Agreed. Anyone tried Overlord game? You can slash the stupid citizens, but if you will swallow evil tendency, you can act later more evil when you will get their trust and use their labour. Power demands sacrifices. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2010 : 12:08:45
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| Don't forget - Obould USED to be Stupid Evil....now he is Not-So-Stupid Evil. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2010 : 12:38:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Who says the CE is not able to forge long-standing alliances and plan a kingdom? The drow definitely can. And Obould is a novelty among orcs in the fact that he is charismatic and has more intelligence than your typical orc chieftain.
Agreed. As I read the 1000 orcs trilogy + the Orc King, Obould felt like a brilliant, Charismatic (both of which a boosted by Gruumsh's blessing IIRC),...
Zireael & Kilvan is correct. Obould got a boost from Gruumsh not only in strength, speed, intelligence but also wisdom. Salvatore talked about it at this year’s GenCon.
And we are in luck because The Tome Show has posted the GenCon session with Salvatore here:
http://thetome.podbean.com/
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2010 : 17:36:29
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I'll give you that one, but his intelligence and wisdom were not the question. His alignment is. As far as boxing characters into one way of bahaving, I don't think it's like that at all. A chaotic person might still plot and scheme with the best of them, but it is usually for "the next big scheme" in terms of duration, rather than working for a long-term goal that will outlast the schemer. Loth and the drow are a prime example of this. Yes, they form alliances all the time, but they drop them just as quickly when they not longer have anything to gain from it. Or it falls apart simply because it is not in their nature to share power or to co-operate for any mutual gain for very long.
Obould, on the other hand, was building an entire KINGDOM from scratch. Yes, his methods were evil, but he wanted a PERMANENT homeland for the orcs, one that would outlast him and stand for future generations. Which means that it would have to have laws, trade and negotiaions with other nations nearby, and some sort of succession. Drow do not generally care about what happens to alliances or power-bases after they die, hence the the chaotic outlook- they are more concerned with an IMMEDIATE future, rather than long-term. Obould was planning something that would still be there long after he was gone, which by its very nature is a lawful outlook. (It's almost impossible to have any kind of lasting nation without planning and preparing for the future generations of said nation- it's the very reason our Founding Fathers drew up a Constitution. They knew the laws- and the nation by default- would have to stand the test of time!!) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2010 : 04:15:19
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I myself really don't care about Obould's alignment. He's not a character that interests me... But, I will say that wanting to build a lasting kingdom does seem more lawful than chaotic. Neutral is possible, but I think that's pushing it.
My entire objection stems from the fact that kingdom building just doesn't seem like orky behavior. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2010 : 07:36:05
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Wooly: But that's just RAS's style
A Barbarian that isn't very Barbariary
A Drow that isn't drowery
A Half-ling that became very unhalf-lingy
A dwarf that isn't Dwarfy(I.e adopting two human kids and befriending a drow)
An Assassian that became very un-assassiny.
And the list goes on.:-) |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2010 : 16:43:05
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| Well, Wooly, if you think about it, wasn't the original animosity between Gruumsh and Corellon over land rights? All the other gods took the best places for their created races, leaving only the wastelands and undesirable places for Gruumsh's people. He got mad and declared war on all of them. I'd say building a new Orc kingdom would be his way of slapping them all in the face, so to speak. At least, it makes sense to me.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2010 : 17:44:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Well, Wooly, if you think about it, wasn't the original animosity between Gruumsh and Corellon over land rights? All the other gods took the best places for their created races, leaving only the wastelands and undesirable places for Gruumsh's people. He got mad and declared war on all of them. I'd say building a new Orc kingdom would be his way of slapping them all in the face, so to speak. At least, it makes sense to me....
interesting theory, I like that. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 00:40:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Well, Wooly, if you think about it, wasn't the original animosity between Gruumsh and Corellon over land rights? All the other gods took the best places for their created races, leaving only the wastelands and undesirable places for Gruumsh's people. He got mad and declared war on all of them. I'd say building a new Orc kingdom would be his way of slapping them all in the face, so to speak. At least, it makes sense to me....
There's a difference between taking land and forging a stable kingdom. Given sufficient numbers, many independent bands of orcs can hold a sizable chunk of land, without ever having to work together. Making them settle down, get along, and answer to a central authority is the part I have trouble with. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 05:55:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'll give you that one, but his intelligence and wisdom were not the question. His alignment is. As far as boxing characters into one way of bahaving, I don't think it's like that at all. A chaotic person might still plot and scheme with the best of them, but it is usually for "the next big scheme" in terms of duration, rather than working for a long-term goal that will outlast the schemer. Loth and the drow are a prime example of this. Yes, they form alliances all the time, but they drop them just as quickly when they not longer have anything to gain from it. Or it falls apart simply because it is not in their nature to share power or to co-operate for any mutual gain for very long.
Obould, on the other hand, was building an entire KINGDOM from scratch. Yes, his methods were evil, but he wanted a PERMANENT homeland for the orcs, one that would outlast him and stand for future generations. Which means that it would have to have laws, trade and negotiaions with other nations nearby, and some sort of succession. Drow do not generally care about what happens to alliances or power-bases after they die, hence the the chaotic outlook- they are more concerned with an IMMEDIATE future, rather than long-term. Obould was planning something that would still be there long after he was gone, which by its very nature is a lawful outlook. (It's almost impossible to have any kind of lasting nation without planning and preparing for the future generations of said nation- it's the very reason our Founding Fathers drew up a Constitution. They knew the laws- and the nation by default- would have to stand the test of time!!)
Point well taken. But b/c of how Obould had acquired his power, I think the debate still stands for those of us interested in pinpointing his exact alignment. Did he want the kingdom to stand the test of time for his orcs to flourish akin to prosperous human and demihuman settlements? Or was the primary objective of building his kingdom for his orcs to better oppose and overcome their enemies and would-be prey? I'm not an expert, but I think those are the primary questions to be asked for pinpointing his alignment.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Well, Wooly, if you think about it, wasn't the original animosity between Gruumsh and Corellon over land rights? All the other gods took the best places for their created races, leaving only the wastelands and undesirable places for Gruumsh's people. He got mad and declared war on all of them. I'd say building a new Orc kingdom would be his way of slapping them all in the face, so to speak. At least, it makes sense to me....
There's a difference between taking land and forging a stable kingdom. Given sufficient numbers, many independent bands of orcs can hold a sizable chunk of land, without ever having to work together. Making them settle down, get along, and answer to a central authority is the part I have trouble with.
To be fully fair, they do answer to a central authority, and that's Gruumsh and his orcish pantheon allies, most of whom are all of the Chaotic Evil alignment. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 13:48:20
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And lets not forget that even barbarian tribes have laws, despite being very chaotic societies. Also he might try to make a lasting kingdom, but as soon as his 'successor' takes the throne (meaning: by being stronger than Obould and throwing him down), who know what he will do to his 'permanent' kingdom? Of course, one could argue that this is an argument for the orcs being chaotic, and not necessarly Obould.
There has been some interesting points for him being lawful, but I still think he is chaotic at heart, using more lawful methods than an orc is used to. I guess that'd make him more NE than CE (or LE).
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Did King Obould switch alignments upon ascension?
