| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 01:03:16
|
In “Elminster in Hell,” the Simbul single-handedly slew archdevils in their own domains, while (in “Shadowrealm”) it took Telamont his most potent spells, with the help of his archwizards and the entire magic of his city, just to imprison ONE archdevil (Mephistopheles). Stressing the difference further is the notion that the Most High could not slay the archfiend: he acknowledged in silence Mephistopheles' claim that he was beyond the archwizard. Does this in any way mean that the Simbul, should she find the drive and need, can single-handedly defeat the Most High and rid of Shade once and for all?
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 01:56:03
|
| Actually, no. The archdevils she slew were powerful beings, however, Mephistopheles is way more powerful than them, since he's the one that's ruling their realm. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
 |
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 02:00:33
|
Mephistopheles rules Avernus? I thought it's Cania he rules, and Avernus is just a home to outcast archdevils...Is Mephistipheles more powerful than Nergal and the rest of the archdevils that Alassra killed combined?
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 02:03:07
|
The Archfiends killed by the Simbul were considerably weaker than Bel, the Archdevil of Avernus (1rst layer). He, in turn, is weaker than the Archfiend of the 2nd level, and so on. Mephistopheles is the Archdevil in charge of the 8th layer. You cannot compare the two like that, they are not on the same level scale at all.
Now, Am I saying that the Simbul is weaker than Telamont? In fact, I do. And I'm not even taking into account that Telamont has the city of Shade as his personnal weapon, and 12 sons (all level 25+) as his possible bodyguards (and Hadhrune too).
|
|
|
|
Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 02:08:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Mephistopheles rules Avernus? I thought it's Cania he rules, and Avernus is just a home to outcast archdevils...Is Mephistipheles more powerful than Nergal and the rest of the archdevils that Alassra killed combined?
Mephistopheles is powered by the souls of Cania, which would give him the power of a demigod (maybe more on his actual layer). He can even grant divine spells to his followers. He could have destroyed those archdevil himself any day of the week (That would have left his layer unprotected though). Remember, he could actually make that city of shade shake by pulling his chains  .
EDIT: Of course, I'm not taking into account the events at the end of the twilight war. NOW Mephistopheles is certainly stronger than the Simbul  |
Edited by - Kilvan on 24 Jun 2010 02:10:33 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 02:23:44
|
The Shades left the Plane of Shadow because they were tired of getting their butts kicked by the Maluagrym, who in-turn were defeated several times over by Elminster (all of them, at the same time, on their home turf), and the Simbul is possibly the only mortal on Toril capable of defeating Elminster (by his admittance).
Ergo, if the Simbul so much as Sneezes she can knock the city of Shade from the sky. If she snaps her fingers the magic would go back in time and make it so the city never existed.
Her and the other Chosen sit around and laugh about how funny the Shades are, and how it's so cute that they think they know a little something about magic. After all, they don't have uber-cool hair-wavey powers. Does Telemont's hair billow about when he is casting? NO... he probably wears a toupee.
Have I mentioned how much I detest the return of the Archmorons?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 02:43:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
The Archfiends killed by the Simbul were considerably weaker than Bel, the Archdevil of Avernus (1rst layer). He, in turn, is weaker than the Archfiend of the 2nd level, and so on. Mephistopheles is the Archdevil in charge of the 8th layer. You cannot compare the two like that, they are not on the same level scale at all.
Now, Am I saying that the Simbul is weaker than Telamont? In fact, I do. And I'm not even taking into account that Telamont has the city of Shade as his personnal weapon, and 12 sons (all level 25+) as his possible bodyguards (and Hadhrune too).
It's implied in Anauroch: Empire of Shade that Hadhrune will fight to the death to prevent the adventuring party from succeeding. So I'm going to say he's no longer at hand.  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 02:53:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ergo, if the Simbul so much as Sneezes she can knock the city of Shade from the sky. If she snaps her fingers the magic would go back in time and make it so the city never existed.
You're joking, right? 
Anyway, I'd never put it that way, and not just because I like the Shadovar (I like Alassra, too. She is my second favorite Chosen). Have you read the Return of the Archwizards? It took the combined forces of Khelben and some of the Seven (not to mention an annoying, meddling elf) to just “wound” the 12 princes and Telamont.
The question ,though, should Alassra and Telamont battle one-on-one is: How will Alassra use her spells as effectively as possible without making a rift in the very fabric of reality? Telamont, on the other hand, will care less, or not at all. Perhaps he'll even welcome the demons with open arms.
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 03:00:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
The Archfiends killed by the Simbul were considerably weaker than Bel, the Archdevil of Avernus (1rst layer). He, in turn, is weaker than the Archfiend of the 2nd level, and so on. Mephistopheles is the Archdevil in charge of the 8th layer. You cannot compare the two like that, they are not on the same level scale at all.
Now, Am I saying that the Simbul is weaker than Telamont? In fact, I do. And I'm not even taking into account that Telamont has the city of Shade as his personnal weapon, and 12 sons (all level 25+) as his possible bodyguards (and Hadhrune too).
It's implied in Anauroch: Empire of Shade that Hadhrune will fight to the death to prevent the adventuring party from succeeding. So I'm going to say he's no longer at hand.
Hardhrune no longer matters. He's dead, or so what says in FR Wiki. Did he resurrect? 
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 03:09:44
|
Detest the Archwizards (never read that trilogy), and don't really care for that Chosen all that much either. They could all kill each other for all I care.
My games top-out usually around 14th level - anything higher then that I have very little use for.
Now, as a fan of the Realms and the novels I have come to appreciate the Chosen (especially Elminster and Khelben), but I still wouldn't let them anywhere near my table. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 03:43:14
|
Wow! You detest something you have NOT even read so much about? Quite fascinating!  I loathe the elves (not so the drows) after reading lots of novels that featured their glaringly, obnoxious haughtinesses.
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 03:46:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
The Archfiends killed by the Simbul were considerably weaker than Bel, the Archdevil of Avernus (1rst layer). He, in turn, is weaker than the Archfiend of the 2nd level, and so on. Mephistopheles is the Archdevil in charge of the 8th layer. You cannot compare the two like that, they are not on the same level scale at all.
Now, Am I saying that the Simbul is weaker than Telamont? In fact, I do. And I'm not even taking into account that Telamont has the city of Shade as his personnal weapon, and 12 sons (all level 25+) as his possible bodyguards (and Hadhrune too).
It's implied in Anauroch: Empire of Shade that Hadhrune will fight to the death to prevent the adventuring party from succeeding. So I'm going to say he's no longer at hand.
Hardhrune no longer matters. He's dead, or so what says in FR Wiki. Did he resurrect?
That's too bad, I hoped to learn more about him. In RoTAW, we discovered that he had been an elf once, and not a pure shadovar. I'd like to lern more about that (or did we in this adventure before he died?) |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 04:25:38
|
Hadrhune was ambitious. He wanted to rule a portion of Thay. Had he been alive, he'd find it quite impossible to attain it unless the Most High freely gives him aid (which is very unlikely. I don't think Telamont would want to mess with Szass Tam ---yet). Szam Tam does not want his realm to be tainted with Shadovar magic, and therefore will personally stop Hadrhune should the latter make a move to conquer even just two feet of Thayan land.
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 05:37:22
|
I hate the return of the Netherease simply because I find them far less interesting alive. We already had several groups - including one group of very powerful Mages from the Shadow plane - in FR. The need to re-use stuff that is history, AND cause unnecessary redundancy I can't stand.
The fact that they also brought back the Imaskari is just icing on the cake - can't these guys come up with anything new? Or must they always stand-upon the shoulders of the giants they came before them?
It was the complete lack of creativity in much of the lore that I find repugnant. I'd rather have crappy lore (and we had some pretty stinky stuff in 1e/2e as well), then have someone re-write the Legend of Sleepy Hollow and try to pass it off as something they should be getting paid for.
Oh, and a city of 'Shadow Mages' floating HIGH IN THE SKY IN THE MIDDLE OF A BRIGHT DESERT... the plots in Scooby Doo were more believable.
But now let me tell you what I REALLY THOUGHT of the Shades...
There is a reason why I avoid certain novel series - I would hate to give-up on FR altogether by having my BS tolerance level exceeded. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jun 2010 20:27:27 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 07:28:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I hate the return of the Netherease simply because I find them far less interesting alive...
So the dead and the non-existing are now more interesting than the living? Wow! Another quite fascinating thing.
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 07:43:23
|
The Shadovar, though old, were never mentioned in the old novels. And though Netherese, they hardly resemble the lost empire (except, arguably, Old Netheril's might). So in a sense they are new in the face of Faerun.
Hardly does it matter that some people can't seem to appreciate the Shadovar. What matters most is that (in the business mind of Wizards) A LOT LIKE AND APPRECIATE THEM and buy books and products that put them in the limelight.
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 11:50:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The Shadovar, though old, were never mentioned in the old novels. And though Netherese, they hardly resemble the lost empire (except, arguably, Old Netheril's might). So in a sense they are new in the face of Faerun.
Hardly does it matter that some people can't seem to appreciate the Shadovar. What matters most is that (in the business mind of Wizards) A LOT LIKE AND APPRECIATE THEM and buy books and products that put them in the limelight.
I don't dislike the shadovar and I haven't read the novels yet, I think they had enough attention IMHO after the Cormyr/Shadowdale/Anauroch trilogy and 4e.
It's time for another group of bad guys to get some attention, like the Kraken Society |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 12:46:16
|
Krakens aren't that impressive (save for their sheer size). Even Rivalen single-handedly mind-controlled one.
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 12:50:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Krakens aren't that impressive (save for their sheer size). Even Rivalen single-handedly mind-controlled one.
He was speaking of the Kraken Society, an evil group of folks in the Sword Coast area with a rather extensive intelligence network. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 13:13:57
|
Oops, hadn't noticed the "Society." Anyway, I haven't seen them appear in the FR novels I read. I only read a bit of info about them in wiki. Is there a more extensive reference on them?
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 14:39:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Oops, hadn't noticed the "Society." Anyway, I haven't seen them appear in the FR novels I read. I only read a bit of info about them in wiki. Is there a more extensive reference on them?
3e Lords of Darkness is the only one I can think of ATM. |
|
|
|
Larloch
Acolyte
Spain
24 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 15:06:59
|
| They appear in the second book of Liriel and, apart from Lord of Darkness, they are described in Cloak and Dagger. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 15:10:09
|
I learned they are allied with the Zhents, and it's something I find less interesting. I hate the Zhents, especially their cockroach leader. Also, I think that villains who ally with other villains are weak. Szass Tam never allied with anyone, neither did the Sojourner, Sammaster, Telamont...
|
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 24 Jun 2010 15:18:31 |
|
|
|
Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 17:19:13
|
| Well, the Sojourner had only one goal, to see the sun one more time before dying... Not sure many villain would have shared that goal with him. As for Tam, Sammaster and Telamont, all three pretty much sold their soul to a deity (evil) for their power. So I wouldn't say they don't need allies. Halaster and Larloch in the other hand... |
|
|
|
Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 19:30:49
|
| I wonder why, if Simbul, El, and the Srinshee, are so powerful, they dont do anything about the impending dangers, like the ccity of shade... it should be no problem, since the srinshee, could take on both El and simbul at the same time, and win!!! |
|
|
|
Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 19:47:35
|
| As stated above, 5 chosens (Khelben, Laeral, Alustriel, Storm and Dove) got beaten up by an equal amount of Princes (Telamont watched, almost amused IIRC). They couldn't use their silver fire, or they would have ended up creating rifts (like Elminster did). They stood no chance, at all, and they had the advantage of surprise. I don't think that Elminster and the Simbul would have changed the result, and I think the Shrinshee had better things to do (wasn't she guarding the Coronal's sword or something?). The chosens cannot beat the Shades in their home, that's why the Shades are still there, expanding. |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 20:07:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
As stated above, 5 chosens (Khelben, Laeral, Alustriel, Storm and Dove) got beaten up by an equal amount of Princes (Telamont watched, almost amused IIRC). They couldn't use their silver fire, or they would have ended up creating rifts (like Elminster did). They stood no chance, at all, and they had the advantage of surprise. I don't think that Elminster and the Simbul would have changed the result, and I think the Shrinshee had better things to do (wasn't she guarding the Coronal's sword or something?). The chosens cannot beat the Shades in their home, that's why the Shades are still there, expanding.
I think if you had replaced Dove and Storm(who we can all agree have no place in an "epic" spell battle, with El and The Simbul...it would have made a huge difference. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
|
|
|
Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 20:26:31
|
I just think that since there are 12 sons, Telamont, and Hadhrune at the time, and that the shades needed less than half of them to beat the 5 chosens, Elminster and the Simbul would have ended up with the same results. Granted, a few of the sons were dead at the moment (raised after the trilogy), but Telamont is still a big piece. At best, they would have managed to kill a few of them.
Anyway, it is still one of the unending 'what if' that we probably cannot all agree on. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 20:49:17
|
Wow... had a big 2-pg. response here, and then realized this thread is not the place for a rant.
Enjoy your Shades. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 21:49:08
|
In the 3.0 Forgotten Realms campaign book, look for an sidebar of Elminster
talking about why he and the other uber-powerful of Faerun don't just
teleport in on each other and start casting. It is very insightful as
to they why they don't do anything about major evils.
Its on the bottom of a right handed page in the 1 3rd of the book. |
Edited by - althen artren on 24 Jun 2010 21:50:16 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 23:42:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Well, the Sojourner had only one goal, to see the sun one more time before dying... Not sure many villain would have shared that goal with him. As for Tam, Sammaster and Telamont, all three pretty much sold their soul to a deity (evil) for their power. So I wouldn't say they don't need allies. Halaster and Larloch in the other hand...
A wise villain who had to feign alliance with another villain will never reveal his true intentions, so the Sojourner could have duped any evil in believing he wanted this or that without sharing his bizarre goal. Just like Tam who asked Bane's help (in exchange for his soul) but did not unveil his wish to be a god himself. Bane simply assumed he wanted absolute power over all Thay.
As for Telamont, I believe he has a reluctant alliance with Shar. Before Netheril's fall, he was not powerful enough to personally shift his city to the Demiplane of Shadow, and therefore accepted the goddess's aid. Besides, his magic's source is the Shadow Weave. It stood to reason to maintain a "good relationship" with the one being who's in control of it. However, having learned that his plan to bring back the old glory of Netheril and conquer Faerun is in obvious conflict with Shar's ultimate goal to bring everything to "nothingness," I believe he was already gathering all available resources to strengthen his city and himself in preparation for the time when he would have to oppose the very will of Shar.
And what of Larloch? If there's any evil being in Faerun who will never need an alliance with anyone, be it a mortal or a diety, it's Larloch. It was already revealed that his mastery over magic far exceeds that of some gods.
|
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 25 Jun 2010 00:07:20 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Telamont and the Simbul
Topic Locked
