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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 23:56:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I think if you had replaced Dove and Storm(who we can all agree have no place in an "epic" spell battle, with El and The Simbul...it would have made a huge difference.
As I stated in my previous post, the Simbul (or/and El) will find it difficult to fight Telamont, and that's not just because the latter is now composed of living shadows. The two Chosen, or all the Chosen for that matter, will never be able to use all their might against him since they have no desire of creating rifts in the world, while Telamont has no qualm over it. Most probably, in anticipation for the stream of demons from the rifts, he would instruct his lackeys to cast spells to bind the unfortunate demons. He had been able to bind the Lord of Cania, so it's pretty much easy to shackle and control the far, far less potent denizens of hell.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 00:06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Wow... had a big 2-pg. response here, and then realized this thread is not the place for a rant.
Enjoy your Shades.
Certainly. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 01:06:04
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If Elminster is supposed to be SO powerful, and the most powerful chosen, since he's the first, im pretty sure he would make a giant diference. And the simbul... well she can give him a run for his money, so again giant diference. And yes... The Srinshee, was somewhere, with the ruler blade. BUT If she were there she, as I said could take both EL and Simbul, and as I again said phenominal diference.
As to the sidebar I have read it, and I agree with it!
But make no mistake... Melcar could easylly take out Hardrune, and with some luck he could take oud Telemond. So if one were to gather Simbul, El, Khelben, Learal, Alustriel, and The Srinshee... well bye bye City of shade! IMO that is! |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 25 Jun 2010 01:10:32 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 01:47:34
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The Srinshee is one of the very few who will not instantly crumble to soot upon Telamont's first hurled spell. But the big question is: How in the Nine Hells will she be able to use her powers without risking a rift?
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 02:01:00
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The Simbul's long fought war with Thay reveals her (and her sisters) inability to deal with well organized threats. In addition, the Simbul's long held ambition to eliminate Mulhorond and Unther, and turn it into farm land, was also beyond her abilities. The Chosen are certainly powerful, but far from a "league of their own".
The Shades represent a clear a present danger in the 'Realms. Their imperial designs, now fully realised, make for a great shake-up. Prior to their return, there were few real threats to the 'good folk' of the' Realms. Has anyone ever consider what the Zhentarim's actual goals were? I mean, besides ruling a bitter wasteland with little economic viability?
The new demarcation of evil ambition in the 'Realms allows for *real* threats to exist in The Heartlands. Something that, as a DM, I'm happy about. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 02:21:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
The Simbul's long fought war with Thay reveals her (and her sisters) inability to deal with well organized threats.
If she found it nigh impossible to conquer Thay before when the Zulkirs were obviously at odds and could rarely act as one, then she'll find it now absolutely impossible with Thay's unified government under Tam's regimen.
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Edited by - Dennis on 25 Jun 2010 02:22:38 |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 02:27:18
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Brace, re. "In addition, the Simbul's long held ambition to eliminate Mulhorand and Unther, and turn it into farm land, was also beyond her abilities."
Where did you come up with this? It's certainly not in any canon I've ever read.
This entire thread seems a bit crazy, mind you, because everyone's speaking of the Chosen as if they were in the ruling game, whereas what Ed has told us over and over again is that they're in the "obeying Mystra" game.
Mystra wants Thay to have a strong foe so they'll develop stronger magic, and so they won't expand their slave-taking and prevent thousands of potential spellcasters from ever getting to use magic, and wants Aglarond's native-born workers of Art to be preserved to develop, so The Simbul gets "installed" as ruler.
Mystra wants Silverymoon to grow as a peaceful place where all the races live together and magic can be taught in that cooperative atmosphere (and to stand against orc hordes so Sword Coast spellcasters can develop), so Alustriel gets "installed" there.
(There were several Chosen-founded or -ruled kingdoms centuries back - - again, on Mystra's orders.)
Some of the posters in this thread seem to forget that to Faerunians, the gods are REAL, and the Chosen serve their goddess. Being Chosen isn't "some Pc or NPC superpowers that let me do as I please, excusing everything in the name of Mystra," it's a (sometimes short!) lifetime of directly obeying a goddess.
If Mystra tells Alustriel to abandon Silverymoon "just like that," she'll do it. Weeping and questioning, almost certainly, but she will go.
If Mystra (pre-Spellplague, of course) wanted Shade wiped out, it would have been. Probably without involving most of the Chosen that posters have listed here.
This was specifically asked at a recent GenCon seminar with Ed and a bunch of the senior WotC designers on the panel (Cordell, Baker, Wyatt, Collins, and two others whose names I forget), and Ed's answer was quite simply that if Mystra wanted Shade and its Princes gone, it would be simple matter of someone starting a magical battle (so that someone in Shade was using magic), collapsing the Weave in that area so everything (shadow magic included) would temporarily go wild), let the city crash, and send in the dragons. Lots of them. With Larloch as mop-up-crew.
I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist of what Ed said. With the WotC staffers nodding, NOT contradicting.
So, obviously, Mystra doesn't want Shade gone. (Which probably is the explanation for the outcome of the Return of the Archwizards battle some of you have been citing.) |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 02:29:38
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Heh. Well said, Blueblade. Very well put. 
love,
THO |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 02:45:35
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And perhaps Mystra does not want to try to eliminate Shade gone because she fears or simply does not want to risk an all-out war with Shar, who has chosen Shade as her vessels to spread her bizarre tenets.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 02:54:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
The Simbul's long fought war with Thay reveals her (and her sisters) inability to deal with well organized threats.
If anything, I would think it reveals exactly the opposite: Aglarond has held off Thay for many, many years. If the Simbul was so incapable of dealing with a well-organized threat, she'd've been dust long ago, and the Thayans would have conquered Aglarond and moved on to the next conquest. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 02:58:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I just think that since there are 12 sons, Telamont, and Hadhrune at the time, and that the shades needed less than half of them to beat the 5 chosens, Elminster and the Simbul would have ended up with the same results. Granted, a few of the sons were dead at the moment (raised after the trilogy), but Telamont is still a big piece. At best, they would have managed to kill a few of them.
Anyway, it is still one of the unending 'what if' that we probably cannot all agree on.
The characterization of the Chosen in that trilogy was quite poorly done. Actually, just about any established white hat in that trilogy managed to come off as more than a few spells short of a wizard. It's my main complaint about the trilogy, and it's that reason that I think you can't consider that trilogy as a baseline for any NPC's capabilities. |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 02:58:57
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Well said indeed Blueblade, but I'm certain that the quote below is untrue. You're a grand sage of realmslore, certainly you've read that bit of canon?
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Where did you come up with this? It's certainly not in any canon I've ever read.
As Alassra revealed to a sage of Candlekeep, indeed referring to it as her duty, "Alassra can then forget all the cruelties of Thay and set to work smashing the decadent Old Empires of Unther and Mulhorand,
and reforming them into farming realms..." (The Seven Sisters, pg. 40, by Ed Greenwood)
Great point, dennis. While Mystra is certainly Ed's favorite deity, as the gods of Faerun are presented to us, she is by no means the most powerful of deities.
Why would Mystra seek to "eliminate" that which is arguably her greatest (inherited) failure? While the Goddess has long sought to enhance civilization with magic, (to me, this is her central tenant) Shade represents just what happens when you let children play with fire. Is Netheril a lesson in hubris, or a failure of the gods?
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 03:03:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
The Simbul's long fought war with Thay reveals her (and her sisters) inability to deal with well organized threats.
If anything, I would think it reveals exactly the opposite: Aglarond has held off Thay for many, many years. If the Simbul was so incapable of dealing with a well-organized threat, she'd've been dust long ago, and the Thayans would have conquered Aglarond and moved on to the next conquest.
This is indeed good evidence to suggest that the Simbul could keep her kingdom "afloat" against a factionalized enemy incapable of bringing to bear it's full resources, through a constant, guerrilla style, asymmetric conflict.
I wonder what would happen if Thaymount decided to "float" over Aglarond, and unleash it's full mystic arsenal against the unwitting citizens below?
Edited for punctuation. |
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Edited by - Brace Cormaeril on 25 Jun 2010 03:05:41 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 03:12:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
........... While Mystra is certainly Ed's favorite deity, as the gods of Faerun are presented to us, she is by no means the most powerful of deities......
I think that's another of those urban legends that ranks next to "Ed= elminster"...and is not accurate at all.
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"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 25 Jun 2010 04:14:51 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 03:21:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
While Mystra is certainly Ed's favorite deity, as the gods of Faerun are presented to us ...
Not really. Ed's said numerous times, in both replies here and on the Mailing List, that he generally tends not to favour any particular deity of his own creation. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 04:18:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Well said indeed Blueblade, but I'm certain that the quote below is untrue. You're a grand sage of realmslore, certainly you've read that bit of canon?
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Where did you come up with this? It's certainly not in any canon I've ever read.
As Alassra revealed to a sage of Candlekeep, indeed referring to it as her duty, "Alassra can then forget all the cruelties of Thay and set to work smashing the decadent Old Empires of Unther and Mulhorand,
and reforming them into farming realms..." (The Seven Sisters, pg. 40, by Ed Greenwood)
Great point, dennis. While Mystra is certainly Ed's favorite deity, as the gods of Faerun are presented to us, she is by no means the most powerful of deities.
Why would Mystra seek to "eliminate" that which is arguably her greatest (inherited) failure? While the Goddess has long sought to enhance civilization with magic, (to me, this is her central tenant) Shade represents just what happens when you let children play with fire. Is Netheril a lesson in hubris, or a failure of the gods?
Nice to see you ignore LHO's endorsement of Blueblade's explanation and focus only on the part that you can counter.
Again.
Oh, and could you please list the canon you pulled Ed's favorite deity from? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 04:20:29
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 04:45:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
The Simbul's long fought war with Thay reveals her (and her sisters) inability to deal with well organized threats. In addition, the Simbul's long held ambition to eliminate Mulhorond and Unther, and turn it into farm land, was also beyond her abilities. The Chosen are certainly powerful, but far from a "league of their own".
The Shades represent a clear a present danger in the 'Realms. Their imperial designs, now fully realised, make for a great shake-up. Prior to their return, there were few real threats to the 'good folk' of the' Realms. Has anyone ever consider what the Zhentarim's actual goals were? I mean, besides ruling a bitter wasteland with little economic viability?
The new demarcation of evil ambition in the 'Realms allows for *real* threats to exist in The Heartlands. Something that, as a DM, I'm happy about.
Not really...
It was the other way around - Thay could not stand up to an organized Aglarond.. or even Rashemen, for that matter. Except for Tam, they are a buncha pozers IMHO. If you actually knew FR lore you would know that the Simbul did not obliterate Tam and his cronies because Mystra commanded her NOT to do so... and it was Elminster's job to stop her should she have chosen to ignore Mystra's decree.
As for the Zhents... they had MANY goals, including some which were merely 'smoke & mirrors' to hide their true goals, many of which they succeeded at attaining. Read the sourcebooks, NOT the novels. The novels will not show their successes because in a novel the 'good guy' HAS TO WIN. The Zhents had bases of operation ALL OVER THE REALMS, even as far as the Lake of Steam (a recent acquisition, I might add). They are not stupid enough to put 'all their eggs in one basket'... or one city, for that matter. 
Edited: Thought better of it.
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jun 2010 05:33:26 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 04:48:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Well said indeed Blueblade, but I'm certain that the quote below is untrue. You're a grand sage of realmslore, certainly you've read that bit of canon?
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Where did you come up with this? It's certainly not in any canon I've ever read.
As Alassra revealed to a sage of Candlekeep, indeed referring to it as her duty, "Alassra can then forget all the cruelties of Thay and set to work smashing the decadent Old Empires of Unther and Mulhorand,
and reforming them into farming realms..." (The Seven Sisters, pg. 40, by Ed Greenwood)
Great point, dennis. While Mystra is certainly Ed's favorite deity, as the gods of Faerun are presented to us, she is by no means the most powerful of deities.
Why would Mystra seek to "eliminate" that which is arguably her greatest (inherited) failure? While the Goddess has long sought to enhance civilization with magic, (to me, this is her central tenant) Shade represents just what happens when you let children play with fire. Is Netheril a lesson in hubris, or a failure of the gods?
I don't think Mystra's decision not to efface Shade from Faerun has anything to do with her inherited failure involving the Old Netheril. I think it has more to do with Shar. Acting directly againt Shade will undoubtedly anger Shar. And while they maybe equal in power, a battle between them will leave both of them considerably enervated (and may need eons to gain their lost might) or utterly extinct. On the other hand, in retaliation, Shar can simply smash the Chosen herself.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 04:57:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I just think that since there are 12 sons, Telamont, and Hadhrune at the time, and that the shades needed less than half of them to beat the 5 chosens, Elminster and the Simbul would have ended up with the same results. Granted, a few of the sons were dead at the moment (raised after the trilogy), but Telamont is still a big piece. At best, they would have managed to kill a few of them.
Anyway, it is still one of the unending 'what if' that we probably cannot all agree on.
The characterization of the Chosen in that trilogy was quite poorly done. Actually, just about any established white hat in that trilogy managed to come off as more than a few spells short of a wizard. It's my main complaint about the trilogy, and it's that reason that I think you can't consider that trilogy as a baseline for any NPC's capabilities.
While the RotA is one of my favorite FR series for various reasons, I agree with you that indeed the characterization of the CHOSEN in that trilogy sucks.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 06:15:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
The Simbul's long fought war with Thay reveals her (and her sisters) inability to deal with well organized threats. In addition, the Simbul's long held ambition to eliminate Mulhorond and Unther, and turn it into farm land, was also beyond her abilities. The Chosen are certainly powerful, but far from a "league of their own".
The Shades represent a clear a present danger in the 'Realms. Their imperial designs, now fully realised, make for a great shake-up. Prior to their return, there were few real threats to the 'good folk' of the' Realms. Has anyone ever consider what the Zhentarim's actual goals were? I mean, besides ruling a bitter wasteland with little economic viability?
The new demarcation of evil ambition in the 'Realms allows for *real* threats to exist in The Heartlands. Something that, as a DM, I'm happy about.
Not really...
As for the Zhents... they had MANY goals, including some which were merely 'smoke & mirrors' to hide their true goals, many of which they succeeded at attaining. Read the sourcebooks, NOT the novels. The novels will not show their successes because in a novel the 'good guy' HAS TO WIN...
Edited: Thought better of it.
Where did you get that idea that the "good guy" has to win? Surely (even if you haven't read them) you're aware that a number of evil characters WON against the good ones in novels, or ACHIEVED their goals (which did not necessarily have to be killing the good guys)?! To cite a few, in RotA, the Shadovar were able to reclaim Anauroch and defended their city against the Chosen. In HL, Szass Tam killed all the zulkirs and claimed Thay as his.
But if you're just talking about the Zhents winning the day, well, they can kill each other for all I care...
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Edited by - Dennis on 25 Jun 2010 06:35:50 |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 06:39:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not really...
It was the other way around - Thay could not stand up to an organized Aglarond.. or even Rashemen, for that matter. Except for Tam, they are a buncha pozers IMHO. If you actually knew FR lore you would know that the Simbul did not obliterate Tam and his cronies because Mystra commanded her NOT to do so... and it was Elminster's job to stop her should she have chosen to ignore Mystra's decree.
Edited: Thought better of it.
My bad, "The Seven Sisters" sourcebook seems to indicate that Aglarond is on the defensive. Regarding the Simbul, Greenwood writes;
"Although she secretly enjoys matching wits and spells with hostile mages, she bitterly resents the time she must waste foiling the plots of Thay. She counts it as time she could be spending building the strength and prosperity of Aglarond, making her citizens happy, and transforming their realm into a carefree sylvan paradise.
One day, she vows, Thay will be destroyed,and she will call together the witches of Rashemen, the druids of many faiths, and the elves
from all over Toril, and work on founding a new forest east of Aglarond, centered on Lake Thaylambar. There elves can settle in a new
realm, and Alassra can then forget all the cruelties of Thay and set to work smashing the decadent Old Empires of Unther and Mulhorand,
and reforming them into farming realms rather than dust-blown slave empires ruled by the crazed and the cruel." ("The Seven Sister", pg. 40 Greenwood)
You're right, Markus, I am unfamiliar with lore which indicates Mystra has barred the Simbul from taking direct action against Tam, source please? (not a novel, I hope, I hear the sourcebooks are better) The Simbul's vow, as quoted above and a matter of record at Candlekeep, it to destroy Thay, not Szass Tam. You may well think of the other zulkirs as "pozers", but to the over 2 million slaves held thrall by them, they are fierce-some indeed.
Regardless, the Simbul has not razed Thay, Mulhorand or Unther; elimination of Thay being a matter of a vow, and Mulhorand and Unther as a "next step" in her geopolitical long-view.
quote:
Originally poster by Markustay
As for the Zhents... they had MANY goals, including some which were merely 'smoke & mirrors' to hide their true goals, many of which they succeeded at attaining.
Could you name a success? I realize they managed to terrorize a number of Moonsea region villages into supplication/corruption, and develop strongholds therein, but to what goal?
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart Nice to see you ignore LHO's endorsement of Blueblade's explanation and focus only on the part that you can counter.
Again.
Sharpen your eyes, there, friend Ashe! That was no "counter", it was a riposte.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Oh, and could you please list the canon you pulled Ed's favorite deity from?
Once again, my bad. I came to the, obviously erroneous, conclusion that Ed favored Mystra and the Chosen over his other creations due to the fact that they appear more frequetly in his TSR/WoTC/Hasbro fiction than any other deity of character. I don't have a database of his novels/novellas/short stories to perform a word count:MANOVA, but a review of his published works does indicate he *publishes* more on these characters than any others. Publishing concerns may be more at play, perhaps? I shouldn't speculate; but I know that El and the Seven are *my* favorites...
quote:
Originally posted by dennis I think it has more to do with Shar.
I agree, dennis, that the repercussions of "deities goin' overt" is manifold. I just really like the thought of Shade/Netheril as Mystra's great mistake. I think of the Shades as evil little children, pitied for their 'crookedness', but with their "parents" to blame...
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 07:09:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Once again, my bad. I came to the, obviously erroneous, conclusion that Ed favored Mystra and the Chosen over his other creations due to the fact that they appear more frequetly in his TSR/WoTC/Hasbro fiction than any other deity of character. I don't have a database of his novels/novellas/short stories to perform a word count:MANOVA, but a review of his published works does indicate he *publishes* more on these characters than any others. Publishing concerns may be more at play, perhaps? I shouldn't speculate; but I know that El and the Seven are *my* favorites...
Publishing concerns? Possibly.
All we really know, is that Ed has sometimes been asked to promote some of the more popular aspects of the Realms, like the Chosen, and Mystra, for example. That doesn't necessarily equate with the assumption that Ed has a particular fondness for just these characters. It simply means that this is largely the direction Wizards wishes for their fiction-branch of the Realms.
Besides, judging from Ed's past replies here, I don't believe he has any particular favourite character or deity. He generally tends to love all his creations equally.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 07:14:29
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All the Moonsea cities, The Citadel of the Raven, the city of Mintar (Lake of Steam), Darkhold, and influences in about a dozen towns and cities in The North, Teshwave and other areas of the Dales, along with a VERY extensive trading empire (a map showing how extensive came in the 2e Ruins of Zhentil keep product.
I think they were very successful - they were an economic empire, and wanted to become a monopoly and control all the major trade-routes - THAT is what it was all about.
Can't remember which novel that scene with the Simbul was in... possibly Spellfire? 
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Where did you get that idea that the "good guy" has to win? Surely (even if you haven't read them) you're aware that a number of evil characters WON against the good ones in novels, or ACHIEVED their goals (which did not necessarily have to be killing the good guys)?! To cite a few, in RotA, the Shadovar were able to reclaim Anauroch and defended their city against the Chosen. In HL, Szass Tam killed all the zulkirs and claimed Thay as his.
Szass Tam killed all the Zulkirs... doesn't that make him one of the 'good guys'?
But seriously, you named two series which I haven't read, nor care to. RSE novels tend to give me indigestion. The Realms once made sense to me - now they are just a chaotic mess (and I'm not talking about 4e or the Spellplague - I'm talking about the inconsistency and downright IDIOCY of a LOT of the story-lines).
Had more here, but once again, thought better of it. The original Realms had everything I needed to run a game, and then some.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Besides, judging from Ed's past replies here, I don't believe he has any particular favourite character or deity. He generally tends to love all his creations equally.
IIRC, Ed actually preferred that Unicorn God as his God of magic.
Can't even remember that god's name ATM... 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jun 2010 19:07:11 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 07:15:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
[quote] I think of the Shades as evil little children, pitied for their 'crookedness', but with their "parents" to blame...
I like it when you put it that way... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 07:26:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
All the Moonsea cities, The Citadel of the Raven, the city of Mintar (Lake of Steam), Darhold, and influences in about a dozen towns and cities in The North, Teshwave and other areas of the Dales, along with a VERY extensive trading empire (a map showing how extensive came in the 2e Ruins of Zhentil keep product.
I think they were very successful - they were an economic empire, and wanted to become a monopoly and control all the major trade-routes - THAT is what it was all about.
Can't remember which novel that scene with the Simbul was in... possibly Spellfire?
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Where did you get that idea that the "good guy" has to win? Surely (even if you haven't read them) you're aware that a number of evil characters WON against the good ones in novels, or ACHIEVED their goals (which did not necessarily have to be killing the good guys)?! To cite a few, in RotA, the Shadovar were able to reclaim Anauroch and defended their city against the Chosen. In HL, Szass Tam killed all the zulkirs and claimed Thay as his.
Szass Tam killed all the Zulkirs... doesn't that make him one of the 'good guys'?
But seriously, you named two series which I haven't read, nor care to. RSE novels tend to give me indigestion. The Realms once made sense to me - now they are just a chaotic mess (and I'm not talking about 4e or the Spellplague - I'm talking about the inconsistency and downright IDIOCY of a LOT of the story-lines).
Had more here, but once again, thought better of it. The original Realms had everything I needed to run a game, and then some.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Besides, judging from Ed's past replies here, I don't believe he has any particular favourite character or deity. He generally tends to love all his creations equally.
IIRC, Ed actually preferred that Unicorn God as his God of magic.
Can't even remember that god's name ATM...
That's it, don't assume that good guys always win, especially that you said it yourself, you don't care to read RSE or 4e novels, where the bad guys often win.
But I like your point about Tam... Sometimes I don't think of him as a villain. Whenever he appears in a novel, I always want him to win. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 08:07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Besides, judging from Ed's past replies here, I don't believe he has any particular favourite character or deity. He generally tends to love all his creations equally.
IIRC, Ed actually preferred that Unicorn God as his God of magic.
Can't even remember that god's name ATM...
EDIT: Lurue
Aye, Lurue.
So Saith Ed:-
quote:
"Originally, Lurue WAS magic—before Julia Martin added the name “Weave” to my GenCon explanations of ‘the great web of magic that’s everywhere in Toril, binds Toril together, and IS Toril,’ Lurue was the embodiment of the Weave. As such, she could teleport without error or limit, through all barriers and spells, was immune to all known magical [and psionic] effects, could raise dead, heal, regenerate and restore with the touch of her horn—and also spew silver fire from it—and so on. Her very proximity dispels illusions and curses, purifies and neutralizes poisons and taints, and purges diseases. And on and on. [To the usual chorus of “Look, yet another all-powerful Greenwood munchkin!” I reply: Yes. Of course. This is THE all-powerful goddess, and she’s also whimsical. We can’t understand why she does what she does, so she can’t be controlled, or act like any sort of tyrannical munchkin, any more than a mountain range or an ocean can be.] She tended to be as curious as a newborn babe, utterly fearless, and kind to injured creatures. And yes, I tucked in the “patron of virgins, but can also make barren wombs bear” folklore, too. Only virgins could ride her, and those who did got that silver hair the Chosen who are Mystra’s daughters all share, and ‘wild talent’ innate magical abilities, and were marked for special tasks and achievements all their lives.
The TSR designers quite rightly (given the humanocentric core of that version of AD&D, with its level and power limits on non-humans) wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways. To become the awe-inspiring mystery she is now."
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 08:28:15
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Nice lore...Don't get me wrong, I like Ed. But I am cool with Wizard's stand that "human gods should be front and center and of the greatest power and importance." Having a Unicorn or Unicorn-looking creature as the goddess of magic is worse than putting the deities of the elves in the limelight. (Have I mentioned I detest elves?---such obnoxious, supercilious creatures!)
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 25 Jun 2010 08:31:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 08:44:56
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Something we can agree on!
That, and that Szass Tam is one of the Good Guys. After all, he was Larloch's lackey for awhile, and everyone knows Larloch is really a good guy (in a sort of "Get out of my way you insects!" kinda way).
Didn't read the Myth Drannor trilogy either - once again, a novel where the 'bad guys' won.
Note the very first thing they did was exterminate all the Cormanthor Drow, when about 80% of them were peaceful and wanted no trouble (as per the 3e FRCS). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 11:30:37
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Nice lore...Don't get me wrong, I like Ed. But I am cool with Wizard's stand that "human gods should be front and center and of the greatest power and importance." Having a Unicorn or Unicorn-looking creature as the goddess of magic is worse than putting the deities of the elves in the limelight. (Have I mentioned I detest elves?---such obnoxious, supercilious creatures!)
Just as a point of clarification: it was TSR, not Wizards, who mandated this.  |
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Telamont and the Simbul
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