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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
 Posted - 02 May 2010 : 01:32:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, for one thing, there's no drow on Krynn.
There are "dark elves" however. But not the "dark elves" of core D&D or Realms standard. The "dark elves" of Krynn are simply Silvanesti or Qualinesti elves who've committed some horrendous act in elven society, and thus, are banished as a result. Branded as "dark elves" they are largely considered lost and/or dead to the elven community they once belonged.
quote:
Krynnish elves are identified by their homeland more than anything else -- rather than have high elves or grey elves, like generic D&D worlds, or moon and gold elves, like the Realms, they have Qualinesti and Silvanesti. Their stats depend on their homeland. Back in 2E, their level and class limits were also dictated by their homeland.
However, Krynn also has wild elves, and ocean-going elves of various varieties.
Wooly's essentially correct about the relationship between Krynnish elves and their lands, though. The only thing I would add is that there really isn't that much difference between the core D&D concept of the "high elf" and the "Silvanesti elves" or the wild elves of FR and the "Kagonesti" of Ansalon.
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Edited by - The Sage on 02 May 2010 01:35:25 |
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 01:41:23
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Yes I have noticed similarities in places such as "high elves" and "Silvanesti" and the wild elves of both places. How about physically, the elves are supposed to all be pretty much generically the same, slender, quick, and pointy. :P
I don't recall exactly but I recall in some settings have elves depicted as fairly short and small and then some having elves depicted at average height or even sort of tall? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 02:28:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Genis
Yes I have noticed similarities in places such as "high elves" and "Silvanesti" and the wild elves of both places. How about physically, the elves are supposed to all be pretty much generically the same, slender, quick, and pointy. :P
It really depends on the source. Most DRAGONLANCE tomes and novels maintain the "grey/high" elf aspect of the Silvanesti elves. Much like other settings. However, some novels and authors have tended toward a more ethereal-aspect for the Silvanesti elves.
quote:
I don't recall exactly but I recall in some settings have elves depicted as fairly short and small and then some having elves depicted at average height or even sort of tall?
You might be thinking of DARK SUN elves, which can be short, and, usually, very tall -- between 6.5 and 7.5 feet. |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 02:55:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Genis
Yes I have noticed similarities in places such as "high elves" and "Silvanesti" and the wild elves of both places. How about physically, the elves are supposed to all be pretty much generically the same, slender, quick, and pointy. :P
It really depends on the source. Most DRAGONLANCE tomes and novels maintain the "grey/high" elf aspect of the Silvanesti elves. Much like other settings. However, some novels and authors have tended toward a more ethereal-aspect for the Silvanesti elves.
quote:
I don't recall exactly but I recall in some settings have elves depicted as fairly short and small and then some having elves depicted at average height or even sort of tall?
You might be thinking of DARK SUN elves, which can be short, and, usually, very tall -- between 6.5 and 7.5 feet.
Ok, I thought that the really tall elves like you mentioned are from Greyhawk and called Valley Elves. Is this wrong, then? |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 03:07:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Genis
Yes I have noticed similarities in places such as "high elves" and "Silvanesti" and the wild elves of both places. How about physically, the elves are supposed to all be pretty much generically the same, slender, quick, and pointy. :P
It really depends on the source. Most DRAGONLANCE tomes and novels maintain the "grey/high" elf aspect of the Silvanesti elves. Much like other settings. However, some novels and authors have tended toward a more ethereal-aspect for the Silvanesti elves.
quote:
I don't recall exactly but I recall in some settings have elves depicted as fairly short and small and then some having elves depicted at average height or even sort of tall?
You might be thinking of DARK SUN elves, which can be short, and, usually, very tall -- between 6.5 and 7.5 feet.
Ok, I thought that the really tall elves like you mentioned are from Greyhawk and called Valley Elves. Is this wrong, then?
No, you're also right. The Valley Elves of Oerth are usually regarded as being somewhat taller -- about the same height [or higher] as humans. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 02 May 2010 03:08:00 |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 03:12:29
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| Ok, thank you! Are there any records of them coming to Toril? Also, what are the stat modifiers of Valley Elves in 3E, please? |
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Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 03:41:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
Ok, thank you! Are there any records of them coming to Toril?
Not that I can recall.
quote:
Also, what are the stat modifiers of Valley Elves in 3E, please?
I don't think they were ever officially updated to 3e. Or, at least, I don't immediately recall any stat updates beyond what was in the 3e Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.
I *think* there were some close-to-official stats posted though, on the canonfire.com site. I don't have the link handy however.
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Edited by - The Sage on 02 May 2010 03:46:32 |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 03:45:12
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All right, thank you once more.  I have the 1st Edition Greyhawk book, and that's where a lot of my information comes from on the world. It's just been a long while since I looked through it. I think it's also where the steel dragon (called a Greyhawk Dragon) comes from originally, right? |
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Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 03:51:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
All right, thank you once more. I have the 1st Edition Greyhawk book, and that's where a lot of my information comes from on the world. It's just been a long while since I looked through it. I think it's also where the steel dragon (called a Greyhawk Dragon) comes from originally, right?
I believe so. The online "Oerth Journals" have an article about the origins of the Steel Dragons and how they *might* have come to populate other worlds, as I recall.
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Edited by - The Sage on 02 May 2010 03:52:04 |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 04:28:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
Oerth Journals. I'll have to Google that right away. Again my thanks.
They're archived on the canonfire.com site, available as PDF downloads, as I recall. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 06:05:24
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Valley Elves are actually a 'race' of half-Elves, hence their height and stockier build. The original Elves of the Valley have been breeding with the humans who came with the 'valley mage' for so very long that they have become there own distinct group.
Isn't there a tribe of half Elves somewhere on Toril? In that forest in Aglarond IIRC? I imagine them some what similar to the Valley Elves of Oerth.
Also, Grugach originated on Oerth - they were the original wild elves (taken from the Celtic Gruagach). I think that's why that title for them was dropped in FR in 3e - it was way too Greyhawkish.
I have a stupid question - why did Quaggoth go from being 'bearish' or even ape-like to being very feline-looking in 3e? Have the Rakshasas been tampering with Faerûnian DNA again?  |
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 May 2010 06:06:51 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 06:32:49
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| Stupid question about tall elves again: I seem to remember something from the original 2E Undermountain boxed set about a permanent illusion of some sort of a realy tall elf (7' ish) in armour with a greatsword (I think)... can anyone corroborate this or am I imagining things? If I'm remembering correctly, has anything else been said anywhere about such a tall Realmsian elf subrace? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 06:40:13
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Thanks Jakk for provoking another stupid question.
I got the question about avatars of Seldarine. Is their height bigger than that of an average elf or they take normal elven height? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 07:24:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Isn't there a tribe of half Elves somewhere on Toril? In that forest in Aglarond IIRC? I imagine them some what similar to the Valley Elves of Oerth.
You mean the Yuirwood half-elves?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 07:28:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
Thanks Jakk for provoking another stupid question.
I got the question about avatars of Seldarine. Is their height bigger than that of an average elf or they take normal elven height?
Depends on the avatar or manifestation. Demihuman Deities indicates various sizes, heights, and shapes for the avatars of the Seldarine. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 08:36:34
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| As for Krynnish elves there is also the facial-hair thing. Dragonlance elves are said to be beardless (although not even Hickman/Weis managed to be consequent on that one), while Realmsian (and at least Know World of the other settings)elves are not. Although Steven Fabian was the only D&D artist to commonly show bearded elves (I cant remmember who first came up with the moustached Drow) Ed confirmed that the elves of Faerun were able to grow both beards and Moustaches if I remmember correctly. |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 08:43:41
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Thanks for reminding.
Can the sight of elves weaken to that extent that he needs glasses?
The drow of the Underdark also mentions that males (1 or 2 out of ten) can have facial hair to have moustaches or scrubby beard. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Edited by - Sill Alias on 03 May 2010 07:47:58 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 13:41:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
As for Krynnish elves there is also the facial-hair thing. Dragonlance elves are said to be beardless (although not even Hickman/Weis managed to be consequent on that one), while Realmsian (and at least Know World of the other settings)elves are not. Although Steven Fabian was the only D&D artist to commonly show bearded elves (I cant remmember who first came up with the moustached Drow) Ed confirmed that the elves of Faerun were able to grow both beards and Moustaches if I remmember correctly.
As Ed noted back in Dec. '04:-
quote:
As it happens, all of the Knights can attest that Merith Strongbow has both (scant, but dark in hue and definitely present) facial and body hair (though unlike human males, he doesn’t get facial stubble if he doesn’t shave every morning, and in fact never needs to shave) ...
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Edited by - The Sage on 02 May 2010 13:42:28 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 19:40:06
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| I seem to remember it having been mentioned (I think it was in a long post describing the Knights) that Merith Strongbow did wear a moustache at times. So there is little indications of the attitudes found on Krynn concerning facial hair (seeing it as a sign of lesser blood so to speak) among the Faerunian elves. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 20:45:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, for one thing, there's no drow on Krynn.
There are "dark elves" however. But not the "dark elves" of core D&D or Realms standard. The "dark elves" of Krynn are simply Silvanesti or Qualinesti elves who've committed some horrendous act in elven society, and thus, are banished as a result. Branded as "dark elves" they are largely considered lost and/or dead to the elven community they once belonged.
quote:
Krynnish elves are identified by their homeland more than anything else -- rather than have high elves or grey elves, like generic D&D worlds, or moon and gold elves, like the Realms, they have Qualinesti and Silvanesti. Their stats depend on their homeland. Back in 2E, their level and class limits were also dictated by their homeland.
However, Krynn also has wild elves, and ocean-going elves of various varieties.
Wooly's essentially correct about the relationship between Krynnish elves and their lands, though. The only thing I would add is that there really isn't that much difference between the core D&D concept of the "high elf" and the "Silvanesti elves" or the wild elves of FR and the "Kagonesti" of Ansalon.
As I recall, the DL sourcebook Sylvan Veil made mention of the way in which Krynnish elves become "dark" elves, and even detailed the ritual that determines whether they should be banished. In my homebrew world, I took it a step further and used that ritual (heavily modified) as the source of the origin of my drow, as opposed to a simple conversion of an already-existing sub-race. Thus, they are not only banished, but "cursed" as well, to account for the differences in stats, etc. I do like how Krynn handled it, though, since that world has no "true" dark elves. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 22:55:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
As I recall, the DL sourcebook Sylvan Veil made mention of the way in which Krynnish elves become "dark" elves, and even detailed the ritual that determines whether they should be banished. In my homebrew world, I took it a step further and used that ritual (heavily modified) as the source of the origin of my drow, as opposed to a simple conversion of an already-existing sub-race. Thus, they are not only banished, but "cursed" as well, to account for the differences in stats, etc. I do like how Krynn handled it, though, since that world has no "true" dark elves.
One of my fave fantasy authors is Raymond E Feist. On his world, he's got several different breeds of elves, too. Not including the most recent arrivals, there's the eledhel (regular elves), the moredhel (dark elves, but not drow-like), the ocedhel (elves from across the ocean), the eldar (high elves, basicly), and the glamredhel (the wild elves). Most folks in the world only know about eledhel and moredhel.
Here's the part I think is niftiest: the biggest difference between the two is cultural. Thousands of years back, they were essentially one race. But their ancient masters (both races were slaves) left. The eledhel decided to go live their own lives. The moredhel decided to try to claim the power of their lost masters. And that's the major difference. The races are physically identical, except elves tend to have lighter hair than moredhel. Both races are quite at home in the forest, though some moredhel live in the mountains. And it's possible, with just a little magic and the subject being willing, for a moredhel to become an elf.
I think that's an interest variation on dark elves. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 00:27:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Sounds cool. What book(s) is that in? I might have to hunt it/them down. I'm a sucker for anything to do with elves!
He's actually got quite the bibliography. I've got more than an entire shelf dedicated to him, in one of my bookcases. Start with the Riftwar Saga. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 01:42:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
As I recall, the DL sourcebook Sylvan Veil made mention of the way in which Krynnish elves become "dark" elves, and even detailed the ritual that determines whether they should be banished.
There's actually been several slight variations of that process. The 3e Dragonlance Campaign Setting provides the most "up-to-date" take on the ritual and the application of the term "dark elf." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 01:49:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I seem to remember it having been mentioned (I think it was in a long post describing the Knights) that Merith Strongbow did wear a moustache at times.
That's right. From this bit:-
quote:
I guessed the latter because she’s shown next to Merith (yes, that horribly simpering Figure 4 HAS to be an attempt to depict a male elf, so I guess that’s Merith without his moustache and dark hair), and because her face and hair most closely resemble the reference illustration Ed handed to TSR back in 1986.
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 08:20:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
The drow of the Underdark also mentions that males (1 or 2 out of ten) can have facial hair to have moustaches or scrubby beard.
I've missed that one, do you have a page number?
I just remembered one thing, interestingly enough the illustrations found in the 2nd ed. Complete book of elves shows all male elves a clean shaven, except for the drow who uniformly wear huge drooping moustaches. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 08:37:12
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| Probably because the Bag Guy/Villain always has a Moustache... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
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Edited by - Brimstone on 03 May 2010 08:37:34 |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 08:40:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
The drow of the Underdark also mentions that males (1 or 2 out of ten) can have facial hair to have moustaches or scrubby beard.
I've missed that one, do you have a page number?
Sorry, I dont remember. But it was mentioned in their basic appearance.
Can anyone answer on my question on elves in glasses? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Edited by - Sill Alias on 03 May 2010 08:53:17 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 09:31:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
The drow of the Underdark also mentions that males (1 or 2 out of ten) can have facial hair to have moustaches or scrubby beard.
I've missed that one, do you have a page number?
Sorry, I dont remember. But it was mentioned in their basic appearance.
Can anyone answer on my question on elves in glasses?
I dont think it would be inconsievable for old elves to use glasses, but I cant remember it ever having been mentioned.
Just one question, is there a 3ed. book named The drow of the Underdark? I cant remember having seen it mentioned in the 2ed. book, but then again my memory is not something to write home about. |
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Stupid question time...
