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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
 Posted - 05 May 2010 : 16:01:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I'm going to regret this. In COS they update the line from FR1 a little: (page 34)
"The navy is based in the Inner Fort, the Outer Fort, Smuggler's Bane Tower, and Harborwatch Tower, collectively garrisoned by almost a thousand marines at all times."
I guessing these marines are ones that are not out on patrol, but what happens when the whole navy has to sortie? We already know that the navy, with 2,000 members, does not have enough personnel to man all of her ships.
Out of curiosity, how many ships does the Waterdeep navy contain? I cant remember ever seeing a number. Also would it be reasonable to assume that the 2000 men are ship-bound soldiers? Parts of the crews themselves may not be part of the number, making it possible for a force of that size to man more ships? |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 16:10:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I'm going to regret this. In COS they update the line from FR1 a little: (page 34)
"The navy is based in the Inner Fort, the Outer Fort, Smuggler's Bane Tower, and Harborwatch Tower, collectively garrisoned by almost a thousand marines at all times."
I guessing these marines are ones that are not out on patrol, but what happens when the whole navy has to sortie? We already know that the navy, with 2,000 members, does not have enough personnel to man all of her ships.
Out of curiosity, how many ships does the Waterdeep navy contain? I cant remember ever seeing a number. Also would it be reasonable to assume that the 2000 men are ship-bound soldiers? Parts of the crews themselves may not be part of the number, making it possible for a force of that size to man more ships?
It's on the 1st post of the thread:
" really enjoyed the thread on Waterdeep's Army, so now I want to take on the City's Navy:
So, according to the books, there's 2,000 memebrs of the Navy, and here we'll find a force that needs expansion. (Piergeiron is going to get this place destroyed!!!)
The Navy has 16 Rakers, 24 Strikers, and 15 transports (War Naos?) and is tasked with manning the harbour walls and forts.
The Rakers Fleet: 16 ships with 36 crew on each, so that's 576 sailors/marines.
The Strikers Fleet: 24 ships with 44 crew on each, so that's 1056 sailors/marines.
The War Nao Fleet (transports:) 15 ships with 40 crew on each, so that's 600 sailors/marines, not to mention the troop carrying levels of 200 each would bring the level up to 3000.
So just to man the ships, Waterdeep needs 2232 sailors/marines. So, I'm guessing when ships are in dock, those troops man the harbour forts and walls (no rest.)
So right now, the Navy is understaffed. No wonder Waterdeep was attacked from the sea!!! Waterdeep needs a stronger Navy.
BTW, I love the map of Waterdeep, it's a work of art. But where are the dry docks? "
As to your point, I don't think the Navy should take civilians out to sea with them. But maybe they do. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 05 May 2010 16:11:25 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 16:17:45
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Hoondatha, things are much different when Waterdeep knows about a coming invasion (after all, the entire reason they have walls is due to orc hordes, which keep coming, and barbarian raids, which very rarely reach this far south since the "civilized" settlement of the Sword Coast North (which has given the barbarians much closer, weaker targets).
DRAGON articles and other lore (here at the Keep and elsewhere) have given details of how Waterdeep repels land assaults they're prepared for: large wall sections "brought down" from other-planar storage, the Walking Statues mobilized to be "crushing battle tanks" that destroy any siege engines and fill any breaches in the wall that occur, as well as foil outflanking attempts up the mountain slopes, griffonback bombing from the air, and the Watchful Order mobilized into a long-range "strike at enemy HQ palavers and food trains" force.
Naval assaults are a weakness, and as Mel Odom was careful to point out (that's what Riverwind has just quoted) and Allen Varney did earlier, with the attack on the merfolk in KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD, Waterdeep tends to be overconfident. Guerilla attacks (slipping in on a lone "honest merchant" ship then doing things) are far more likely to succeed than a massed assault - - because, again, very few powers (Luskan and the Northmen being known exceptions) want to risk being "shut out of" the trade of Waterdeep by being banned because they've assaulted Waterdeep's harbour or shipping entering or leaving it.
Yes, from the POV of a military general, that's a real flaw. However, Ed and the TSR designers from the first were working with a common guideline: make every setting interesting for PC adventurers; give them something to do, some chance to shine and be heroes (e.e. rescue the city), and room to adventure in. Some of the WotC designers seem to have lost sight of this. Which is why Ed in his Waterdeep bible for the 4e "Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep" novel series reversed what was said in the 3e COS sourcebook (which contradicts the 3e COS novel by Ed and Elaine it was supposed to take as gospel, BTW).
Which is in turn why canon is probably never going to move to what Riverwind has been proposing.
In good game design, there are at least three levels (basic challenge and reward, or "kill the monster and take the treasure," and thread-plot or consequences ["if you kill the dragon in Room 36, that will anger Meliekus the vampire who dwells in this dungeon, and he'll..."] and intrigue and the webwork of larger overarching plots (power groups and the conflicts and alliances between them, and how they'll react to particular PC achievements). Above that is metaplot, or product lines and the "big building history" designers may or may not be working towards, to set up key products (Time of Troubles, the Tuigan Horde, the Threat From The Sea), and above that are design statements that define what the Realms product line is, what audience it's intended to engage, and so on. That uppermost layer is what gives us what might be called the flaws and mistakes of Realms history that are built in to the setting (as opposed to inconsistencies, misspellings, lazy or missing designer research, turf battles between designers, licensors doing things with places or characters that mess up what others are doing with them, and so on).
The difficulty of balancing and keeping track of competing interests and keeping all the balls in the air are why the Realms has had a "traffic cop" from the beginning (Jeff Grubb) to the "Realms team" of today.
Which is why there's a done-in-design reason Waterdeep can REALLY HAMMER a foe it's prepared for (as a daily deterrent, but there if an RSE is demanded from above), but the city is likely to be taken by surprise by a few skulking adventurers who do the right thing. 
I hope this long-winded reply helps.
love,
THO |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 16:35:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I'm going to regret this. In COS they update the line from FR1 a little: (page 34)
"The navy is based in the Inner Fort, the Outer Fort, Smuggler's Bane Tower, and Harborwatch Tower, collectively garrisoned by almost a thousand marines at all times."
I guessing these marines are ones that are not out on patrol, but what happens when the whole navy has to sortie? We already know that the navy, with 2,000 members, does not have enough personnel to man all of her ships.
Out of curiosity, how many ships does the Waterdeep navy contain? I cant remember ever seeing a number. Also would it be reasonable to assume that the 2000 men are ship-bound soldiers? Parts of the crews themselves may not be part of the number, making it possible for a force of that size to man more ships?
It's on the 1st post of the thread:
" really enjoyed the thread on Waterdeep's Army, so now I want to take on the City's Navy:
So, according to the books, there's 2,000 memebrs of the Navy, and here we'll find a force that needs expansion. (Piergeiron is going to get this place destroyed!!!)
The Navy has 16 Rakers, 24 Strikers, and 15 transports (War Naos?) and is tasked with manning the harbour walls and forts.
The Rakers Fleet: 16 ships with 36 crew on each, so that's 576 sailors/marines.
The Strikers Fleet: 24 ships with 44 crew on each, so that's 1056 sailors/marines.
The War Nao Fleet (transports:) 15 ships with 40 crew on each, so that's 600 sailors/marines, not to mention the troop carrying levels of 200 each would bring the level up to 3000.
So just to man the ships, Waterdeep needs 2232 sailors/marines. So, I'm guessing when ships are in dock, those troops man the harbour forts and walls (no rest.)
So right now, the Navy is understaffed. No wonder Waterdeep was attacked from the sea!!! Waterdeep needs a stronger Navy.
BTW, I love the map of Waterdeep, it's a work of art. But where are the dry docks? "
As to your point, I don't think the Navy should take civilians out to sea with them. But maybe they do.
Sorry, missed that
Not having the books here (and never read any 3ed. Waterdeep lore), so this might be totally corrected by canon.
I don't know, I would think that the sailors and various ship crews could be in addition to the mentioned marines, as they are not really fighting men needed in a fort. Not so much civilians as draftees and auxiliaries brought in when needed. But medieval navy and shipwarfare is something I know very little about though, so I am unsure how the ships were manned, for what I know there might have been permanent crews on every ship that was seen as part of the army, but that doesnt sound right to me.
There could also be the possibility that some parts of the troops used on ships, such as archers, might be taken from the main force. But that would of course result in the army having more men. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 17:58:46
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Ah, I think I see where a LOT of this misunderstanding is arising from.
The Navy is in charge of daily harbour security, and thus has daily command over harbour defenses. This changes in time of declared war, when Piergeiron either leads the defense of the city, or names officers to oversee it, and much of the harbour defending is actually done by the Guard.
Deepwatch Isle is THE Navy base (barracks, training, armouries) and so is garrisoned and occupied by Navy personnel at all times.
However, "marines" in Waterdeep doesn't mean "marines" in the real-world American sense (that is, a fighting force under naval command). It means soldiers who can be taken aboard ships to fight (defending the ships, boarding other vessels, doing shore sorties and attacks on hostile harbours, etc.) Most of these soldiers can't even swim well; they are not the sailors of the Navy, and not counted in that naval strength.
(They ARE trained in deck fighting, boardings, rigging, et al.)
Reading Riverwind's summation (just reposted above), I can see he's counting the "marines" (a real-world term used in the books for clarity; Ed's original term is "Waveswords") as part of the 2,000-strong Navy. Not so. The two thousand are all sailors crewing the ships (and defending Deepwatch Isle, their "home").
I agree that 2,000 sailors can't man all the harbour land defenses AND crew the ships. But they only have the latter task, not the former.
Does that make things clearer? I think a lot of what's been debated in this thread is based on this misunderstanding.
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 05 May 2010 17:59:20 |
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Longtime Lurker
Seeker
51 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 02:47:42
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Makes sense to me.
This one from Riverwind, though, doesn't: "1. The Navy should have an intelligence arm, which in this case failed."
Er, WHY should it have an intelligence arm, exactly?
In the real world, yes there's the NIS ("NCIS" on TV), but our real world lacks wizards with whiz-bang spells. And priests who can cast detect lie spells, too.
A "naval intelligence arm" sounds like modern real-world thinking to me, just as THO has been pointing out, and the nature of The Threat From The Sea means no naval intelligence arm, from the Abwehr of World War II to the gadgets-that-work-better-and-faster-than-real-life NCIS (cool, yes, but realistic, unfortunately not) could have caught it.
You'd need, yes, WIZARDS to do that (locate, identify, and swiftly nullify undersea teleportational arrivals).
Reading through this thread, I have to agree with THO. This all sounds like planning and thinking (and criticism of canon) based on real-world U.S. forces knowledge and attitudes. Fine for the poster's campaign, if he wants to do that, but way far from convincing me that "Piergeiron is going to get this place destroyed!!!" (as the poster asserts) or that Waterdeep as presented to us by the designers is mistakenly flawed.
Sorry, I just don't see this, ahem, holding water. [sorry, couldn't resist]
Now, if you were advocating Piergeiron needs to bulk up on secret wizards who work for the Palace, I'm with you.
However, Ed and Elaine in their CITY OF SPLENDORS novel seem to be hinting in several scenes to readers that Piergeiron's done just that, and as the book ends is intending to do more of it.
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Edited by - Longtime Lurker on 06 May 2010 02:50:22 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 03:58:42
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Yes, IMO the navy should have an intelligence arm. They should have agents in other cities taking notes on when ships sortie, warships under construction, deployment lengths, etc. Is the term "intelligence arm" to modern, yes. So call it Force Blue or the Blue Hands and the effect is the same.
EDIT: Just to let you know, NCIS is the Naval Criminal Investigative Service and has nothing to do with intelligence. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 06 May 2010 04:05:19 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 04:16:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Yes, IMO the navy should have an intelligence arm. They should have agents in other cities taking notes on when ships sortie, warships under construction, deployment lengths, etc. Is the term "intelligence arm" to modern, yes. So call it Force Blue or the Blue Hands and the effect is the same.
Interestingly, I've long speculated over the possibility that Force Grey could, potentially, assume such a role should the need arise -- only a little more "proactive intelligence unit." [And should Khelben think it appropriate for his "Whelps."] Not on a permanent basis, of course, but as an extension of the Guard/Watch when Waterdeep is threatened to a specific degree. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 06 May 2010 04:18:17 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 04:17:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
(They ARE trained in deck fighting, boardings, rigging, et al.)
Reading Riverwind's summation (just reposted above), I can see he's counting the "marines" (a real-world term used in the books for clarity; Ed's original term is "Waveswords") as part of the 2,000-strong Navy. Not so. The two thousand are all sailors crewing the ships (and defending Deepwatch Isle, their "home").
I agree that 2,000 sailors can't man all the harbour land defenses AND crew the ships. But they only have the latter task, not the former.
Does that make things clearer? I think a lot of what's been debated in this thread is based on this misunderstanding.
love,
THO
So if the marines are not counted in 2,000 navy number that means they're part of the 1,200 Guard number? Isn't that stretching the already stretched out Guard forces? |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 04:41:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Yes, IMO the navy should have an intelligence arm. They should have agents in other cities taking notes on when ships sortie, warships under construction, deployment lengths, etc. Is the term "intelligence arm" to modern, yes. So call it Force Blue or the Blue Hands and the effect is the same.
Why? Spies and scrying mages on land, yes, what with the threat of orc hordes and the like, but when was the last time anyone ever attacked Waterdeep from the sea? The sahuagin don't count, since the Lords already took precautions that stood up to anything short of a demigod (which was what Iakhovas effectively was). There aren't any cities on the northern Sword Coast that can seriously challenge Waterdeep, especially when Waterdeep can also retaliate by land. Luskan's the only city beligerent enough to try, and we've seen Waterdeep step in and smack Luskan down two or three times in the last twenty years, so obviously they aren't a threat.
The only city that could concievably go toe-to-toe with Waterdeep would be Calimshan, but they've got way too many other things to worry about closer to home, and what would be the purpose of raiding Waterdeep by sea? Especially when you'd leave your fleets open to being harrassed coming and going by Amn, Tethyr, and the pirates of the Nelanther.
There just isn't any reason for Waterdeep's government to have an organized naval intelligence system. There's no threat, and it wouldn't give them any sort of advantage. Now, I'm sure the nobles and the city's other merchants DO have intelligence nets of various kinds to help them one-up their rivals. And I'm also sure that if one of their agents got word that, say, a fleet of mercenaries out of Athkatla was planning on a raid-and-run against Waterdeep, they'd come straight to Piergeiron. So, in a sense, Waterdeep already has an intelligence network. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 05:22:02
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| Well in 1359 Waterdeep did go to war with Luskan and almost went to war again in 1361. I doubt Waterdeep entered into these conflicts blind and I'm sure they knew exactly what Luskan's strength was at the time. Also I'm sure Waterdeep likes to keep tabs on pirates that use Luskan as a home port. Having someone up there to say, "all 14 warships sortied today...ship x is being repaired...new warship under construction...known pirate in port today...winter is early this year, doubt Luskan's navy can put out to sea...etc." I think Waterdeep's navy would like this kind of information. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 05:42:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
(They ARE trained in deck fighting, boardings, rigging, et al.)
Reading Riverwind's summation (just reposted above), I can see he's counting the "marines" (a real-world term used in the books for clarity; Ed's original term is "Waveswords") as part of the 2,000-strong Navy. Not so. The two thousand are all sailors crewing the ships (and defending Deepwatch Isle, their "home").
I agree that 2,000 sailors can't man all the harbour land defenses AND crew the ships. But they only have the latter task, not the former.
Does that make things clearer? I think a lot of what's been debated in this thread is based on this misunderstanding.
love,
THO
So if the marines are not counted in 2,000 navy number that means they're part of the 1,200 Guard number? Isn't that stretching the already stretched out Guard forces?
I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion... It's pretty clear the Waveswords and the Guard are not a combined force, since there's not even a hint that they are one force, nor any indications that they have overlapping duties. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 May 2010 05:44:24 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 05:45:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hoondatha, things are much different when Waterdeep knows about a coming invasion (after all, the entire reason they have walls is due to orc hordes, which keep coming, and barbarian raids, which very rarely reach this far south since the "civilized" settlement of the Sword Coast North (which has given the barbarians much closer, weaker targets).
DRAGON articles and other lore (here at the Keep and elsewhere) have given details of how Waterdeep repels land assaults they're prepared for: large wall sections "brought down" from other-planar storage, the Walking Statues mobilized to be "crushing battle tanks" that destroy any siege engines and fill any breaches in the wall that occur, as well as foil outflanking attempts up the mountain slopes, griffonback bombing from the air, and the Watchful Order mobilized into a long-range "strike at enemy HQ palavers and food trains" force.
Naval assaults are a weakness, and as Mel Odom was careful to point out (that's what Riverwind has just quoted) and Allen Varney did earlier, with the attack on the merfolk in KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD, Waterdeep tends to be overconfident. Guerilla attacks (slipping in on a lone "honest merchant" ship then doing things) are far more likely to succeed than a massed assault - - because, again, very few powers (Luskan and the Northmen being known exceptions) want to risk being "shut out of" the trade of Waterdeep by being banned because they've assaulted Waterdeep's harbour or shipping entering or leaving it.
Yes, from the POV of a military general, that's a real flaw. However, Ed and the TSR designers from the first were working with a common guideline: make every setting interesting for PC adventurers; give them something to do, some chance to shine and be heroes (e.e. rescue the city), and room to adventure in. Some of the WotC designers seem to have lost sight of this. Which is why Ed in his Waterdeep bible for the 4e "Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep" novel series reversed what was said in the 3e COS sourcebook (which contradicts the 3e COS novel by Ed and Elaine it was supposed to take as gospel, BTW).
Which is in turn why canon is probably never going to move to what Riverwind has been proposing.
In good game design, there are at least three levels (basic challenge and reward, or "kill the monster and take the treasure," and thread-plot or consequences ["if you kill the dragon in Room 36, that will anger Meliekus the vampire who dwells in this dungeon, and he'll..."] and intrigue and the webwork of larger overarching plots (power groups and the conflicts and alliances between them, and how they'll react to particular PC achievements). Above that is metaplot, or product lines and the "big building history" designers may or may not be working towards, to set up key products (Time of Troubles, the Tuigan Horde, the Threat From The Sea), and above that are design statements that define what the Realms product line is, what audience it's intended to engage, and so on. That uppermost layer is what gives us what might be called the flaws and mistakes of Realms history that are built in to the setting (as opposed to inconsistencies, misspellings, lazy or missing designer research, turf battles between designers, licensors doing things with places or characters that mess up what others are doing with them, and so on).
The difficulty of balancing and keeping track of competing interests and keeping all the balls in the air are why the Realms has had a "traffic cop" from the beginning (Jeff Grubb) to the "Realms team" of today.
Which is why there's a done-in-design reason Waterdeep can REALLY HAMMER a foe it's prepared for (as a daily deterrent, but there if an RSE is demanded from above), but the city is likely to be taken by surprise by a few skulking adventurers who do the right thing.
I hope this long-winded reply helps.
love,
THO
See I think the city walls should be the last line of defense, not the first. An invading army should never get close to Waterdeep.
An invading force coming from the south should never get on the north bank of the Dessarin River and the defenses at Zunbridge should be improved to make sure that no force crosses the river. At the same time the Guard needs to be mobile enough so no force can flank Zundbridge and the enemy force should always be kept on the south bank of the river.
To the north, I would try to find a defensive area to build a fort in the Sword Mountains that would control movement through the passes of the range.
To the east I would try to partner with Goldenfields and the Silver Marches to build a fort and tower at Sarcrag to control the area east of Waterdeep and protect the vital food supply.
So my plan, with enough troops, no invader would get close to Waterdeep. Hopefully. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 06 May 2010 05:56:21 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 05:48:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
(They ARE trained in deck fighting, boardings, rigging, et al.)
Reading Riverwind's summation (just reposted above), I can see he's counting the "marines" (a real-world term used in the books for clarity; Ed's original term is "Waveswords") as part of the 2,000-strong Navy. Not so. The two thousand are all sailors crewing the ships (and defending Deepwatch Isle, their "home").
I agree that 2,000 sailors can't man all the harbour land defenses AND crew the ships. But they only have the latter task, not the former.
Does that make things clearer? I think a lot of what's been debated in this thread is based on this misunderstanding.
love,
THO
So if the marines are not counted in 2,000 navy number that means they're part of the 1,200 Guard number? Isn't that stretching the already stretched out Guard forces?
I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion... It's pretty clear the Waveswords and the Guard are not a combined force, since there's not even a hint that they are one force, nor any indications that they have overlapping duties.
I'm sorry Wooly, maybe I missed something. But what force are the Waveswords part of? |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 09:18:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Yes, IMO the navy should have an intelligence arm. They should have agents in other cities taking notes on when ships sortie, warships under construction, deployment lengths, etc. Is the term "intelligence arm" to modern, yes. So call it Force Blue or the Blue Hands and the effect is the same.
EDIT: Just to let you know, NCIS is the Naval Criminal Investigative Service and has nothing to do with intelligence.
I agree that Waterdeep probably has agents in other coastal city's in addition to magically scrying their docks and wharfs, but I cant see them as belonging to an "arm" of the navy. Just agents working for the city and giving information to those who give orders to the navy. The navy having its own intelligence network becomes a bit out of place for me somehow. It feels modern to me.
As for having the army meet invaders in advance. I think the years upon years of not being invaded would make the city feel safe without a large standing army that is ready for open battle. It is quite possible that they would expect news well in advance from foreign agents if a large army was being organized against them. In that case mercenaries and allies would be called for.
The dwarves and northern settlements would probably give their warnings far enough ahead of the invaders to make the city able to prepare for an attach from the north. But I do agree that they might have some preparations made in the north as there might be a greater chance of surprise from that direction. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 15:42:33
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Sorry, Riverwind, but I can't less this pass uncorrected:
"EDIT: Just to let you know, NCIS is the Naval Criminal Investigative Service and has nothing to do with intelligence."
Please don't be misled by television shows. The real-world organization IS the chief intel arm of the navy, not just navy cops. How do I know this? Well, this is (ahem) my real-world field.
love,
THO |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 15:58:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Sorry, Riverwind, but I can't less this pass uncorrected:
"EDIT: Just to let you know, NCIS is the Naval Criminal Investigative Service and has nothing to do with intelligence."
Please don't be misled by television shows. The real-world organization IS the chief intel arm of the navy, not just navy cops. How do I know this? Well, this is (ahem) my real-world field.
love,
THO
THO,
NCIS is in charge of counter-intelligence for the US Navy, much like the FBI is in charge of counter-intelligence for US at large. They are not in charge of looking at foriegn threats, that would be the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI.) Now granted in recent years, especially since the Cole, force protection has been a greater concern which falls to the NCIS, but that would still fall under counter-intelligence.
River |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 15:59:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Sorry, Riverwind, but I can't less this pass uncorrected:
"EDIT: Just to let you know, NCIS is the Naval Criminal Investigative Service and has nothing to do with intelligence."
Please don't be misled by television shows. The real-world organization IS the chief intel arm of the navy, not just navy cops. How do I know this? Well, this is (ahem) my real-world field.
love,
THO
THO,
NCIS is in charge of counter-intelligence for the US Navy, much like the FBI is in charge of counter-intelligence for the US at large. They are not in charge of looking at foriegn threats, that would be the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI.) Now granted in recent years, especially since the Cole, force protection has been a greater concern which falls to the NCIS, but that would still fall under counter-intelligence.
River |
Edited by - Riverwind on 06 May 2010 16:11:18 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 16:15:01
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Ah, re. NCIS, I see you're not up on the latest org charts. Well, I've reached the limits of what I should say on that topic, so let's just leave that be.
Just to make it very clear: the Waveswords are their own force. Just as there's another force for policing Skullport (they're more like a hit team of adventurers, actually) that, like the Waveswords, isn't part of the Guard OR the Watch OR the Navy.
As for your plan to head off land armies before they reach the walls: you have the intent exactly right. You have the means to achieve it wrong, in that the Silver Marches doesn't WANT Waterdeep to have forts built that will in peacetime have the potential to control the trade roads, whatever their usefulness in wartime. Besides, past experience has shown the entire Sword Coast North that both raiding barbarians and orc hordes simply stream past forts, ignoring them, and so the forces inside achieve NOTHING re. protecting other places (like Waterdeep). Yes, they can sortie and attack the hostiles from the rear, but in both cases I've cited it's too late and no deterrent (the attackers aren't professional armies concerned with victory and territorial conquest).
Clearer, I hope?
love,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 16:19:09
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BTW, River, according to Ed, in Waterdeep ALL intelligence goes to Peirgeiron, though both the Guard and the Watchful Order have "gathering" coordinators, highly ranked. The navy does not do its own intelligence.
love,
THO |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 16:21:04
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Example of above intel sharing: the morningfeast (breakfast) meeting seen in CITY OF SPLENDORS (the novel).
love,
THO |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 16:58:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ah, re. NCIS, I see you're not up on the latest org charts. Well, I've reached the limits of what I should say on that topic, so let's just leave that be.
There's been no change in the org chart. There's 17 agencies in the US Intelligence Community, or IC. The ONI is part of that community, the NCIS is not.
quote:
Just to make it very clear: the Waveswords are their own force. Just as there's another force for policing Skullport (they're more like a hit team of adventurers, actually) that, like the Waveswords, isn't part of the Guard OR the Watch OR the Navy.
I'm all for adding another branch, that means more troops, which I've been pushing for.
quote:
As for your plan to head off land armies before they reach the walls: you have the intent exactly right. You have the means to achieve it wrong, in that the Silver Marches doesn't WANT Waterdeep to have forts built that will in peacetime have the potential to control the trade roads, whatever their usefulness in wartime. Besides, past experience has shown the entire Sword Coast North that both raiding barbarians and orc hordes simply stream past forts, ignoring them, and so the forces inside achieve NOTHING re. protecting other places (like Waterdeep). Yes, they can sortie and attack the hostiles from the rear, but in both cases I've cited it's too late and no deterrent (the attackers aren't professional armies concerned with victory and territorial conquest).
I completly understand that Waterdeep needs to be concerned about her relations with her allies such as the Silver Marches. But that's why I would work with them. BTW, was Waterdeep concerned with the very formation of the Confederation?
quote:
BTW, River, according to Ed, in Waterdeep ALL intelligence goes to Peirgeiron, though both the Guard and the Watchful Order have "gathering" coordinators, highly ranked. The navy does not do its own intelligence.
Well that's just an organizational decision. The fact is someone would be gathering intelligence on foreign navies.
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Edited by - Riverwind on 06 May 2010 16:59:50 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 17:23:59
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Riverwind, re. this: "There's been no change in the org chart. There's 17 agencies in the US Intelligence Community, or IC. The ONI is part of that community, the NCIS is not."
Yes, literally true. However, no longer the way things work. (And your "17" is a bit out of date.)
Re. naval intelligence: of COURSE it's gathered. But not by the navy. After all, if a Waterdhavian ship came to YOUR port, wouldn't you watch its sailors? Easier to do then watching "just merchants" you don't know are gathering intel for Waterdeep.
Some Lords of Waterdeep are concerned about the Silver Marches, yes. But most feel its defensive usefulness (blunting or even decimating orc hordes before they get as far south as Waterdeep) outweighs that. Preventing them from, you know, having to maintain an expensive standing army.
love,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 06 May 2010 17:28:14 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 18:28:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Riverwind, re. this: "There's been no change in the org chart. There's 17 agencies in the US Intelligence Community, or IC. The ONI is part of that community, the NCIS is not."
Yes, literally true. However, no longer the way things work. (And your "17" is a bit out of date.)
Well we can can each continue this, round and round, but I'm sure no one here cares to read it. All I'm saying is the NCIS is not the chief intelligence arm of the US Navy, and there's a big difference between counter-intelligence and intelligence. Now sure, that does not mean that agencies don't step on others toes, just look at the FBI and CIA.
quote:
Re. naval intelligence: of COURSE it's gathered. But not by the navy. After all, if a Waterdhavian ship came to YOUR port, wouldn't you watch its sailors? Easier to do then watching "just merchants" you don't know are gathering intel for Waterdeep.
I think we're in agreement here. I'm not really concerned with who is actually doing the intelligence gathering, it could be the Bakers Guild under contract for all I care. My point was that someone in Waterdeep would be doing this.
quote:
Some Lords of Waterdeep are concerned about the Silver Marches, yes. But most feel its defensive usefulness (blunting or even decimating orc hordes before they get as far south as Waterdeep) outweighs that. Preventing them from, you know, having to maintain an expensive standing army.
I do have a little bit of problem with this. Waterdeep is the most powerful city in the north and should show some leadership and not just use their allies as a buffer. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but maybe the Silver Marches was formed because they were sick of Waterdeep's lack of leadership through the Lord's Alliance, "if you're no going to get tough, we will." |
Edited by - Riverwind on 06 May 2010 18:29:14 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 19:21:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I do have a little bit of problem with this. Waterdeep is the most powerful city in the north and should show some leadership and not just use their allies as a buffer. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but maybe the Silver Marches was formed because they were sick of Waterdeep's lack of leadership through the Lord's Alliance, "if you're no going to get tough, we will."
If the allies are interested in having Waterdeep "help" them along with its strong army. The moment that happens we are straying from allies to vassals in a few short steps. I imagine that any attempt by Waterdeep to send troops would strengthen Luruar all right; against Waterdeep. Generally when someone decides to show some leadership (especially when there are no clear signs of it being needed outside of theory) others get worried.
I am still curious as to how the city could manage to do all this (whether it is a good idea or not) with a society, administration and diplomacy all built on balancing the various groupings and states in a system that is to the city's advantage. No matter how you see it a strengthened army or navy is a change in the strength relationship and will shift the power balance, with some gaining and many others (it would at least seem) loosing.
I am sorry, but I cant stay out of this. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 19:46:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I do have a little bit of problem with this. Waterdeep is the most powerful city in the north and should show some leadership and not just use their allies as a buffer. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but maybe the Silver Marches was formed because they were sick of Waterdeep's lack of leadership through the Lord's Alliance, "if you're no going to get tough, we will."
If the allies are interested in having Waterdeep "help" them along with its strong army. The moment that happens we are straying from allies to vassals in a few short steps. I imagine that any attempt by Waterdeep to send troops would strengthen Luruar all right; against Waterdeep. Generally when someone decides to show some leadership (especially when there are no clear signs of it being needed outside of theory) others get worried.
I am still curious as to how the city could manage to do all this (whether it is a good idea or not) with a society, administration and diplomacy all built on balancing the various groupings and states in a system that is to the city's advantage. No matter how you see it a strengthened army or navy is a change in the strength relationship and will shift the power balance, with some gaining and many others (it would at least seem) loosing.
I am sorry, but I cant stay out of this.
Well lets just say Waterdeep kept a force at Sarcrag, which I like because it would be defensible and give you a great view of the surrounding countryside (60 miles on a clear day, campfires could be be seen for 90 miles at night.) I also suggested building a tower at Sarcrag to increase the range of sight. This fort would provide protection to the vital food supply of Waterdeep and protect the lower Dessarin River Valley. (edit:also the eastern approaches to Waterdeep.) At the same time this is still very far off from the Silver Marches should they be concerned about our "expansion." At the same time, the Silver Marches are our allies, and having forces closer to them if they needed and requested aid is a good thing. I'm not suggesting that we march up there uninvited, but if the call for aid went out, I want a force that could get moving quickly. Someone before brought up communications, we should remember that the Silver Marches has a portal inside Castle Waterdeep so the two nations can stay in constant communications.
As far as your concern about balance, IMO the Guard and Navy are clearly the weaker members of the Waterdeep Realm. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 06 May 2010 19:52:06 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 20:01:22
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From a military point of view its sound, but politics is an arena of paranoia. A (relatively) small force could be welcomed by the Luruar area and allied states of the north, but the southern states would get very worried by a standing army of several thousand men. Which would also be expensive, but we have already had the tax debate, so there is no reason to go there.
But there is also the problem of Waterdeeps internal politics. As with the outer relations everything is based on the power balance between the nobles, guilds, populace and the lords. I think the natural reaction to all groups would be to sty to stop this army from being built if they were not able to have some control over it themselves. Without a change in the political system or a clear outer threat I cant see the army getting strengthened as everyone would see it as a greater potential danger to themselves more than against an outside enemy.
I don't see many political or economical problems with a relatively small, specialized force that can move in to strengthen allies or delay an enemy force, but the large army still strikes me as problematic for various reasons.
I am curious, how would you solve the political problems? And lets assume the worst here, with self-serving and uncooperative factions. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 20:28:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
From a military point of view its sound, but politics is an arena of paranoia. A (relatively) small force could be welcomed by the Luruar area and allied states of the north, but the southern states would get very worried by a standing army of several thousand men. Which would also be expensive, but we have already had the tax debate, so there is no reason to go there.
But there is also the problem of Waterdeeps internal politics. As with the outer relations everything is based on the power balance between the nobles, guilds, populace and the lords. I think the natural reaction to all groups would be to sty to stop this army from being built if they were not able to have some control over it themselves. Without a change in the political system or a clear outer threat I cant see the army getting strengthened as everyone would see it as a greater potential danger to themselves more than against an outside enemy.
I don't see many political or economical problems with a relatively small, specialized force that can move in to strengthen allies or delay an enemy force, but the large army still strikes me as problematic for various reasons.
I am curious, how would you solve the political problems? And lets assume the worst here, with self-serving and uncooperative factions.
Well we would need to ask the cities of the north which is better, bandits and orcs roaming the countryside or a professional army that can defend our common interest? I think everyone understands that the common interest is trade, and delays in trade caused by bandits and orcs are bad for business (time is money.) As far as some of the closer communities such as Goldenfields, they need to understand that if they were lost, Waterdeep would be screwed, and Waterdeep can't allow that to happen. I would offer them some type of joint operation of the new fort if they were that concerned about our presence.
As far as the nobles and the guilds: The new forts and forces will need supplies, weapons, horses, stone, wood, etc. All of these cost money, and Waterdeep needs to buy it off someone. I'm sure they would like that. Also the nobles and the guilds have an interest in a safe countryside. The nobles have estates and farms, and I'm sure they don't like wondering monsters and bandits. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 06 May 2010 20:38:08 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 21:02:40
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I just wanted to add, we know how important the lower Dessarin River Valley is to Waterdeep as the bread basket of the city. This is from Volo's Guide to the North: (page 11)
"...orc hordes that sweep down the Dessarin every decade or so."
I'm sorry, but I would put a stop to this. The farms in the area are just too important. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 21:40:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Well we would need to ask the cities of the north which is better, bandits and orcs roaming the countryside or a professional army that can defend our common interest? I think everyone understands that the common interest is trade, and delays in trade caused by bandits and orcs are bad for business (time is money.) As far as some of the closer communities such as Goldenfields, they need to understand that if they were lost, Waterdeep would be screwed, and Waterdeep can't allow that to happen. I would offer them some type of joint operation of the new fort if they were that concerned about our presence.
As far as the nobles and the guilds: The new forts and forces will need supplies, weapons, horses, stone, wood, etc. All of these cost money, and Waterdeep needs to buy it off someone. I'm sure they would like that. Also the nobles and the guilds have an interest in a safe countryside. The nobles have estates and farms, and I'm sure they don't like wondering monsters and bandits.
And if the allies decline? The tone makes me think of imperialism and colonialism at once. The tone here is actually a bit scary with a underlying threat and I think there would be problem at once here.
And one thing I think you overlook every time here; Waterdeep doesn't have an "I" The nobles, guilds and merchants are not that easily calmed down as the army would be a threat to their position of power within the city. Their not idiots, if the Lords are willing to threaten the individual settlements they might next threaten the city's own factions. A few goldpieces more is not worth giving up their position within the structure of Waterdeep.
This sounds like a plan a centralized and strong state would try, more or less figuring that they can lead every one to follow their goals. Waterdeep is not in a position that would make this possible. Your plans might change the city in to something that might be able to "organize and Civilized" the North, but this would first demand another form of strong government. Which would probably have to be created with brutality and then Waterdeep would not me anything else than Zenthil Keep.
All this as I see it of course |
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Waterdeep's Navy
