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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
 Posted - 06 May 2010 : 22:21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Well we would need to ask the cities of the north which is better, bandits and orcs roaming the countryside or a professional army that can defend our common interest? I think everyone understands that the common interest is trade, and delays in trade caused by bandits and orcs are bad for business (time is money.) As far as some of the closer communities such as Goldenfields, they need to understand that if they were lost, Waterdeep would be screwed, and Waterdeep can't allow that to happen. I would offer them some type of joint operation of the new fort if they were that concerned about our presence.
As far as the nobles and the guilds: The new forts and forces will need supplies, weapons, horses, stone, wood, etc. All of these cost money, and Waterdeep needs to buy it off someone. I'm sure they would like that. Also the nobles and the guilds have an interest in a safe countryside. The nobles have estates and farms, and I'm sure they don't like wondering monsters and bandits.
And if the allies decline? The tone makes me think of imperialism and colonialism at once. The tone here is actually a bit scary with a underlying threat and I think there would be problem at once here.
And one thing I think you overlook every time here; Waterdeep doesn't have an "I" The nobles, guilds and merchants are not that easily calmed down as the army would be a threat to their position of power within the city. Their not idiots, if the Lords are willing to threaten the individual settlements they might next threaten the city's own factions. A few goldpieces more is not worth giving up their position within the structure of Waterdeep.
This sounds like a plan a centralized and strong state would try, more or less figuring that they can lead every one to follow their goals. Waterdeep is not in a position that would make this possible. Your plans might change the city in to something that might be able to "organize and Civilized" the North, but this would first demand another form of strong government. Which would probably have to be created with brutality and then Waterdeep would not me anything else than Zenthil Keep.
All this as I see it of course
Well I think we need to look at the situation from 3 different strategic situations. The situation to the south, north, and east of Waterdeep:
The South: Waterdeep already controls Zundbridge and the crossing there over the Dessarin. I'm suggesting that the fortification be strengthened and the garrison be increased. As I said before, no invader would get to the north bank of the Dessarin, and because Waterdeep already controls Zundbridge, this should not bother anyone.
The North: I would find a defensible position in the southern Sword Mountains that controls the passes through the range. No invading force would get past this point. As far as I know there's no major communities leading north from Waterdeep to the southern part of the range, so this should not bother anyone.
The East: Here there are several notable communities that might be a little nervous. But we already have troops in Rassalantar so putting troops nearby in Sarcrag shouldn't be a big deal. Also if our real intent was to take over Goldenfields, marching our army from Waterdeep, or by river from Zundbridge, or by Sarcrag, it really wouldn't make much of a difference. So if they really didn't want us in Sarcrag then we would respect their wishes. We should keep in mind that Goldenfields themselves are expanding and would like to take over/incorporate Bargewright Inn. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 06 May 2010 22:23:10 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 00:31:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I just wanted to add, we know how important the lower Dessarin River Valley is to Waterdeep as the bread basket of the city. This is from Volo's Guide to the North: (page 11)
"...orc hordes that sweep down the Dessarin every decade or so."
I'm sorry, but I would put a stop to this. The farms in the area are just too important.
So, are we just going to ignore the point the lovely Lady Hooded One made earlier, about orc hordes ignoring forts and such?
It's a horde. Unless you build the Great Wall of Waterdeep or recruit a dozen dragons, you're not going to stop it. Waterdeep would need an army the size of Waterdeep to protect against orc hordes -- unless they follow their current strategy, of having one highly defensible location that can't be circumvented. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 00:34:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I do have a little bit of problem with this. Waterdeep is the most powerful city in the north and should show some leadership and not just use their allies as a buffer. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but maybe the Silver Marches was formed because they were sick of Waterdeep's lack of leadership through the Lord's Alliance, "if you're no going to get tough, we will."
Show some leadership to cities that don't want its leadership?
Letting your allies maintain their own armed forces and maintain their own borders is not being weak or failing to show leadership. Those cities are defending themselves -- they're not trying to defend Waterdeep; that's just a happy coincidence for Waterdeep. |
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 01:36:26
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Here we go again. Riverwind speaking from a "well, as Waterdeep's general I would do thus and so" and lots of other scribes pointing out politics, both internal Waterdhavian ones (we the REST of Waterdeep might not want this particular "thus and so") and regional (Luruar and others not wanting Waterdeep to bulk up into a military power) . . . and Riverwind just pressing on with "I'm sorry, but I would put a stop to this. The farms in the area are just too important."
As Wooly has pointed out (and THO before him), it's an orc HORDE. Unless you're going to muster the largest army the Realms has ever seen and attempt a (endless, and almost certainly doomed to failure) war of extermination on the orcs of the Sword Coast North, hordes will come, like hurricanes and tsunamis and droughts, regardless of how large an army is fielded.
However, I fear that instead of admitting that, or discussing alternative strategies, you'll begin to think other scribes are ganging up on you again.
I think it was very well put in the army thread: we haven't yet identified just who in Waterdeep would strengthen the army or navy (or how they would pay for it), nor how Waterdeep would deal with the wider political ramifications (amongst both allies and rivals). THO has reiterated several times how Waterdeep's prosperity/trade popularity is directly related to the balancing act they are depicted in the published rules as doing, and you just ignore that point. There's not much point in assembling huge armies if you bankrupt the city you're fighting for, or cause them to become a shunned backwater.
Or is there? If there's some part of how this strategy would work that you haven't shared with us yet, please share it. (Because I for one am a long way from convinced, thus far. So far, most of it sounds like "If I had a billion dollars and could do just as I pleased, it would nice to do and have X, Y, and Z" . . . as opposed to: "How can we make X, Y, and Z come about?" or "I think I can get Waterdeep from here to X, Y, and Z, and here's how I'd do it.") I'd love to hear a lot more about HOW (step by step) you'd accomplish this, Riverwind, from the initial paying for more soldiery or ships to finessing approval/support from Waterdeep's citizens to how you (as Waterdeep) would handle the political fallout amongst Waterdeep's allies and rivals.
I'd certainly like to hear more of that . . . and less of you trying to correct THO about NCIS (which I have a strong suspicion she knows a lot about).
As far as Goldenfields goes, that's a vast temple farm of Chauntea, created, lived in, and farmed by priests of Chauntea, including Tolgar of Ed's original Crazed Venturers. They are independent of Waterdeep and everyone else by choice (in which faith plays a part, so they might well not be easily convinced to change their choice). It's a breadbasket, all right...so I put it to you, Riverwind: how would YOU (you as Waterdeep, that is) react if, say, Baldur's Gate or Secomber suddenly built up a huge army, fortified around Goldenfields, and announced they were "protecting" it, "because it's so important"? An army that could be used to block Waterdeep's access to all that food?
What if you as Waterdeep then marched on Goldenfields to "liberate" it, and Tolgar announced he was happy with his new defenders, and please go home? What would you do? Because it seems to me that this is how other places (such as Silverymoon, Secomber, etc.) would see things, if Waterdeep built up a huge army and started building forts in the Dessarin valley.
(THO pointed out to you that both elves and dwarves would have something to say about this, earlier, but you didn't respond to those points. Somehow, if this was occurring in the Realms, I don't think the elves and dwarves concerned would LET you ignore them. )
Do you see what I'm getting at, here?
I don't think military moves (or "want lists") can be done in isolation from politics. I think you're stuck with (usually swift and nasty) consequences if you try.
Agree? Disagree? |
Edited by - Broken Helm on 07 May 2010 01:37:51 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 01:45:34
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Heh. I was going to respond to Riverwind's latest posts, but I think you've done such a good job of articulating the same sorts of things I was going to say, Broken Helm, that I'll step back and just await Riverwind's response.
Just one point, Riverwind: when you spoke of the three compass directions, and said that Waterdeep already controls Zundbridge, and should strengthen both fortifications and garrison there (militarily a good idea, yes, if you want to establish stronger control and security for Waterdeep), you posted "and because Waterdeep already controls Zundbridge, this should not bother anyone."
NOT so. This is the essential point I've been contesting with you. There is no "should," there is only "will" or "won't," and I've been relaying to you Ed's original design postulate that Waterdeep has only become a hugely successful trading center that it has BECAUSE merchants feel unoppressed, lightly taxed, and lightly watched over there. If Waterdeep is seen to be firming up control over that trade road, many merchants will cease to use it. Scornubel will gain, and other trade centers will begin to supplant Waterdeep as the trading hub of choice.
So, yes, fortifying Zundbridge (just to pick this one small example) WILL bother lots of folks. The vital folks, as far as Waterdeep's future prosperity is concerned.
love,
THO |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 04:54:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I just wanted to add, we know how important the lower Dessarin River Valley is to Waterdeep as the bread basket of the city. This is from Volo's Guide to the North: (page 11)
"...orc hordes that sweep down the Dessarin every decade or so."
I'm sorry, but I would put a stop to this. The farms in the area are just too important.
So, are we just going to ignore the point the lovely Lady Hooded One made earlier, about orc hordes ignoring forts and such?
It's a horde. Unless you build the Great Wall of Waterdeep or recruit a dozen dragons, you're not going to stop it. Waterdeep would need an army the size of Waterdeep to protect against orc hordes -- unless they follow their current strategy, of having one highly defensible location that can't be circumvented.
Wooly,
I'm sorry if I ignored THO's point. I think we could look at Cormyr for some good examples of fortifications that protect/control an area of land, Castle Crag and High Horn. We know about High Horn here: (page 26 Cormyr)
"High Horn guards the road to the west, specifically to prevent border raiders and marshland-based lizardmen from entering the pass..." |
Edited by - Riverwind on 07 May 2010 04:59:13 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 04:58:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I do have a little bit of problem with this. Waterdeep is the most powerful city in the north and should show some leadership and not just use their allies as a buffer. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but maybe the Silver Marches was formed because they were sick of Waterdeep's lack of leadership through the Lord's Alliance, "if you're no going to get tough, we will."
Show some leadership to cities that don't want its leadership?
Letting your allies maintain their own armed forces and maintain their own borders is not being weak or failing to show leadership. Those cities are defending themselves -- they're not trying to defend Waterdeep; that's just a happy coincidence for Waterdeep.
Well Wooly, I think the cities of the Silver Marches wanted more leadership and defense otherwise they would have never formed the Confederation. I think clearly the agreements under the Lords' Alliance was not enough. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 05:19:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I just wanted to add, we know how important the lower Dessarin River Valley is to Waterdeep as the bread basket of the city. This is from Volo's Guide to the North: (page 11)
"...orc hordes that sweep down the Dessarin every decade or so."
I'm sorry, but I would put a stop to this. The farms in the area are just too important.
So, are we just going to ignore the point the lovely Lady Hooded One made earlier, about orc hordes ignoring forts and such?
It's a horde. Unless you build the Great Wall of Waterdeep or recruit a dozen dragons, you're not going to stop it. Waterdeep would need an army the size of Waterdeep to protect against orc hordes -- unless they follow their current strategy, of having one highly defensible location that can't be circumvented.
Wooly,
I'm sorry if I ignored THO's point. I think we could look at Cormyr for some good examples of fortifications that protect/control an area of land, Castle Crag and High Horn. We know about High Horn here: (page 26 Cormyr)
"High Horn guards the road to the west, specifically to prevent border raiders and marshland-based lizardmen from entering the pass..."
Cormyr is a kingdom. Comparing it to a city-state is like comparing apples and oranges... Especially considering that Cormyr's very existence doesn't depend on trade. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 05:21:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I do have a little bit of problem with this. Waterdeep is the most powerful city in the north and should show some leadership and not just use their allies as a buffer. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but maybe the Silver Marches was formed because they were sick of Waterdeep's lack of leadership through the Lord's Alliance, "if you're no going to get tough, we will."
Show some leadership to cities that don't want its leadership?
Letting your allies maintain their own armed forces and maintain their own borders is not being weak or failing to show leadership. Those cities are defending themselves -- they're not trying to defend Waterdeep; that's just a happy coincidence for Waterdeep.
Well Wooly, I think the cities of the Silver Marches wanted more leadership and defense otherwise they would have never formed the Confederation. I think clearly the agreements under the Lords' Alliance was not enough.
Wanting more leadership doesn't necessarily mean wanting it from a distant southern neighbor. And the Lords' Alliance wasn't a mutual defense treaty -- it's more about trade than anything else. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 05:33:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Helm
[However, I fear that instead of admitting that, or discussing alternative strategies, you'll begin to think other scribes are ganging up on you again.
I would love to talk about alternative strategies, do you have one?
quote:
I think it was very well put in the army thread: we haven't yet identified just who in Waterdeep would strengthen the army or navy (or how they would pay for it), nor how Waterdeep would deal with the wider political ramifications (amongst both allies and rivals). THO has reiterated several times how Waterdeep's prosperity/trade popularity is directly related to the balancing act they are depicted in the published rules as doing, and you just ignore that point. There's not much point in assembling huge armies if you bankrupt the city you're fighting for, or cause them to become a shunned backwater.
Well I'm not sure I'm talking about a huge army, just a larger one.
quote:
Or is there? If there's some part of how this strategy would work that you haven't shared with us yet, please share it. (Because I for one am a long way from convinced, thus far. So far, most of it sounds like "If I had a billion dollars and could do just as I pleased, it would nice to do and have X, Y, and Z" . . . as opposed to: "How can we make X, Y, and Z come about?" or "I think I can get Waterdeep from here to X, Y, and Z, and here's how I'd do it.") I'd love to hear a lot more about HOW (step by step) you'd accomplish this, Riverwind, from the initial paying for more soldiery or ships to finessing approval/support from Waterdeep's citizens to how you (as Waterdeep) would handle the political fallout amongst Waterdeep's allies and rivals.
I'm trying, I'm trying.
quote:
I'd certainly like to hear more of that . . . and less of you trying to correct THO about NCIS (which I have a strong suspicion she knows a lot about).
Well spend 5 minutes going to their website and go to ONI's website.
quote:
As far as Goldenfields goes, that's a vast temple farm of Chauntea, created, lived in, and farmed by priests of Chauntea, including Tolgar of Ed's original Crazed Venturers. They are independent of Waterdeep and everyone else by choice (in which faith plays a part, so they might well not be easily convinced to change their choice). It's a breadbasket, all right...so I put it to you, Riverwind: how would YOU (you as Waterdeep, that is) react if, say, Baldur's Gate or Secomber suddenly built up a huge army, fortified around Goldenfields, and announced they were "protecting" it, "because it's so important"? An army that could be used to block Waterdeep's access to all that food?
What if you as Waterdeep then marched on Goldenfields to "liberate" it, and Tolgar announced he was happy with his new defenders, and please go home? What would you do? Because it seems to me that this is how other places (such as Silverymoon, Secomber, etc.) would see things, if Waterdeep built up a huge army and started building forts in the Dessarin valley.
Well, that would not be good, right? That might mean war. In fact, Baldur's Gate does have troops in the north. (I'll look it up for you.)
quote:
(THO pointed out to you that both elves and dwarves would have something to say about this, earlier, but you didn't respond to those points. Somehow, if this was occurring in the Realms, I don't think the elves and dwarves concerned would LET you ignore them. )
Do you see what I'm getting at, here?
I don't think military moves (or "want lists") can be done in isolation from politics. I think you're stuck with (usually swift and nasty) consequences if you try.
Agree? Disagree?
Well it seems everyone is concerned about what others might think, but not what Waterdeep thinks. IMO, and this is only my opinion, Waterdeep needs to think of herself once in a while. Now, I'm not saying that they ignore their allies, but their security concerns should not be taken lightly. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 05:45:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I just wanted to add, we know how important the lower Dessarin River Valley is to Waterdeep as the bread basket of the city. This is from Volo's Guide to the North: (page 11)
"...orc hordes that sweep down the Dessarin every decade or so."
I'm sorry, but I would put a stop to this. The farms in the area are just too important.
So, are we just going to ignore the point the lovely Lady Hooded One made earlier, about orc hordes ignoring forts and such?
It's a horde. Unless you build the Great Wall of Waterdeep or recruit a dozen dragons, you're not going to stop it. Waterdeep would need an army the size of Waterdeep to protect against orc hordes -- unless they follow their current strategy, of having one highly defensible location that can't be circumvented.
Wooly,
I'm sorry if I ignored THO's point. I think we could look at Cormyr for some good examples of fortifications that protect/control an area of land, Castle Crag and High Horn. We know about High Horn here: (page 26 Cormyr)
"High Horn guards the road to the west, specifically to prevent border raiders and marshland-based lizardmen from entering the pass..."
Cormyr is a kingdom. Comparing it to a city-state is like comparing apples and oranges... Especially considering that Cormyr's very existence doesn't depend on trade.
A city like Arabel depends almost entirely on trade as does Waymoot, and Marsember. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 05:55:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
So, yes, fortifying Zundbridge (just to pick this one small example) WILL bother lots of folks. The vital folks, as far as Waterdeep's future prosperity is concerned.
love,
THO
Well Waterdeep already has a fort there: (COS Environs of Waterdeep page 12)
"...a double walled castle situated on a rocky outcropping above the river gorge..." |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 06:09:52
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Broken Helm,
I also wanted to add concerning you concerns. I'm talking about building two new forts and adding to one. None of these forts would more than (I don't have the maps in front of me right now) 75 miles from Waterdeep. So it would be alot different than say Baldur's Gate putting troops at Goldenfields.
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 06:13:54
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"And the Lords' Alliance wasn't a mutual defense treaty"
Wooly, are you sure about that? I don't have all the books with me right now, but I'll look it up. If I'm wrong here, I apologize. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 06:22:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
"And the Lords' Alliance wasn't a mutual defense treaty"
Wooly, are you sure about that? I don't have all the books with me right now, but I'll look it up. If I'm wrong here, I apologize.
Wooly has the right of it.
As the lovely Lady Hooded One described, several years ago:-
quote:
The Lords' Alliance is just that: an alliance of lords who generally share the same goals. They have spies and go-betweens/envoys who work for them (swearing personal allegiance to a particular lord), as information gatherers and sharers between the lords. Think of it as behind-the-scenes diplomacy, where they report a political event or outbreak of raiding or fighting to each other, and often decide on a united position to take regarding the event.
So, Marquant: no headquarters, no formal meetings, no badges and uniforms, and so on. The "structure" you're looking for just isn't there. This isn't the EU or the UN; it's more the Bildenberger Group or a "Red Phone" or "Hotline" network among various heads of state.
The public knows about the Alliance because of the peace its members work to maintain and the trade alliances and easy flows they foster (generally in the Sword Coast North and father south down the Sword Coast and east along the Heartlands trade routes).So, yes, they are the ultimate "behind the scenes" power group.
I hope this helps to explain the Alliance a bit better. How do I know all of this? Because we Knights (of Myth Drannor; my PC and other PCs) briefly found ourselves used as "go-betweens" to guard-and-carry items and documents from Lord to Lord, in Ed Greenwood's "home" Realms campaign (or as I like to think of it, THE [real, original] Forgotten Realms).
love,
THO
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 06:32:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
"And the Lords' Alliance wasn't a mutual defense treaty"
Wooly, are you sure about that? I don't have all the books with me right now, but I'll look it up. If I'm wrong here, I apologize.
Wooly has the right of it.
As the lovely Lady Hooded One described, several years ago:-
quote:
The Lords' Alliance is just that: an alliance of lords who generally share the same goals. They have spies and go-betweens/envoys who work for them (swearing personal allegiance to a particular lord), as information gatherers and sharers between the lords. Think of it as behind-the-scenes diplomacy, where they report a political event or outbreak of raiding or fighting to each other, and often decide on a united position to take regarding the event.
So, Marquant: no headquarters, no formal meetings, no badges and uniforms, and so on. The "structure" you're looking for just isn't there. This isn't the EU or the UN; it's more the Bildenberger Group or a "Red Phone" or "Hotline" network among various heads of state.
The public knows about the Alliance because of the peace its members work to maintain and the trade alliances and easy flows they foster (generally in the Sword Coast North and father south down the Sword Coast and east along the Heartlands trade routes).So, yes, they are the ultimate "behind the scenes" power group.
I hope this helps to explain the Alliance a bit better. How do I know all of this? Because we Knights (of Myth Drannor; my PC and other PCs) briefly found ourselves used as "go-betweens" to guard-and-carry items and documents from Lord to Lord, in Ed Greenwood's "home" Realms campaign (or as I like to think of it, THE [real, original] Forgotten Realms).
love,
THO
Hey Sage, Thanks.
I was looking it up in one of the books I have with me. I'm pretty sure in one of the books (FR3 maybe?) it says that the Alliance is a mutual defense treaty. I did just read this in COS Box set (page 29)
"The Lords' Alliance provides continued safety for all the settlements of the northern Sword Coast and those inland, with Waterdeep as the heart of the alliance."
(page 102)
"The Lords' Alliance and her member cities' navies provide some protection against piracy..."
I'll look up the other stuff when I get home, but this might be a case where all the designers are not on the same page. Thanks again. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 06:59:02
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Also from Volo's Guide to the North: (page 144)
"Port Llast...bolstered by 30 of the Lords' Alliance troops...the troops are from are mainly from Elturel and Baldur's Gate, so that a Luskan attack would risk war with two powerful cities."
Now granted that does not say, "risk war with the alliance," but it does show that the alliance has "units," and shows some sort of mutual defense.
page 153:
"...Mirabar in the Lords' Alliance, viewing it as a vital lifeline against overwhelming orc hordes and Luskanite aggression."
page 178:
"Sundabar...the Lords' Alliance...sponsor the Sundabarian army of 2,000..." |
Edited by - Riverwind on 07 May 2010 07:03:00 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 09:02:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Also from Volo's Guide to the North: (page 144)
"Port Llast...bolstered by 30 of the Lords' Alliance troops...the troops are from are mainly from Elturel and Baldur's Gate, so that a Luskan attack would risk war with two powerful cities."
Now granted that does not say, "risk war with the alliance," but it does show that the alliance has "units," and shows some sort of mutual defense.
page 153:
"...Mirabar in the Lords' Alliance, viewing it as a vital lifeline against overwhelming orc hordes and Luskanite aggression."
page 178:
"Sundabar...the Lords' Alliance...sponsor the Sundabarian army of 2,000..."
Maybe we need to get Army scroll open again.
To your first , 30 people do not an army make (They can hardly booster an army, though with magic a person of high level is worth many of 1st level). That is more of banners that attacking a Noble of Elturel or Baldur's Gate. Say 10 from each of those and maybe 5 from two lessor cities could provoke a war between city states not because of numbers killed, but because of who was killed. The banners/flags/tokens indicating that some were from such cities was all that was required. The attack would be on the symbol of the city, not the very few people sent that carried them. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 11:18:29
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OK, I found it from The North which you can download (I'll put the link at the end)
(page 68)
The Lords' Alliance
Leader: Lord Piergeiron of Waterdeep
Base of Operations: Waterdeep
Goal: UNIFIED DEFENSE OF NORTHERN CITIES and promotion of their economic interest
"...this lawful and essentially good economic and MILITARY alliance..."
http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/pdfs/North_69-101_politics-magic-index.pdf
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 11:43:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I just wanted to add, we know how important the lower Dessarin River Valley is to Waterdeep as the bread basket of the city. This is from Volo's Guide to the North: (page 11)
"...orc hordes that sweep down the Dessarin every decade or so."
I'm sorry, but I would put a stop to this. The farms in the area are just too important.
So, are we just going to ignore the point the lovely Lady Hooded One made earlier, about orc hordes ignoring forts and such?
It's a horde. Unless you build the Great Wall of Waterdeep or recruit a dozen dragons, you're not going to stop it. Waterdeep would need an army the size of Waterdeep to protect against orc hordes -- unless they follow their current strategy, of having one highly defensible location that can't be circumvented.
Wooly,
I'm sorry if I ignored THO's point. I think we could look at Cormyr for some good examples of fortifications that protect/control an area of land, Castle Crag and High Horn. We know about High Horn here: (page 26 Cormyr)
"High Horn guards the road to the west, specifically to prevent border raiders and marshland-based lizardmen from entering the pass..."
Cormyr is a kingdom. Comparing it to a city-state is like comparing apples and oranges... Especially considering that Cormyr's very existence doesn't depend on trade.
A city like Arabel depends almost entirely on trade as does Waymoot, and Marsember.
Yeah, so? Arabel is a city, it's not the whole kingdom. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 11:47:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
OK, I found it from The North which you can download (I'll put the link at the end)
(page 68)
The Lords' Alliance
Leader: Lord Piergeiron of Waterdeep
Base of Operations: Waterdeep
Goal: UNIFIED DEFENSE OF NORTHERN CITIES and promotion of their economic interest
"...this lawful and essentially good economic and MILITARY alliance..."
http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/pdfs/North_69-101_politics-magic-index.pdf
A military allaince is not the same thing as a mutual defense treaty. A military alliance means they can help each other out -- it doesn't mean that Waterdhavian troops are obligated to walk the walls of Silverymoon.
If an orc horde attacked Luruar, Waterdeep more than likely wouldn't even be able to get an army to them in time to do anything -- if they tried, they'd likely wind up with their troops in the middle of nowhere when the horde pushed on and found them. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 11:55:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
OK, I found it from The North which you can download (I'll put the link at the end)
(page 68)
The Lords' Alliance
Leader: Lord Piergeiron of Waterdeep
Base of Operations: Waterdeep
Goal: UNIFIED DEFENSE OF NORTHERN CITIES and promotion of their economic interest
"...this lawful and essentially good economic and MILITARY alliance..."
http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/pdfs/North_69-101_politics-magic-index.pdf
A military allaince is not the same thing as a mutual defense treaty. A military alliance means they can help each other out -- it doesn't mean that Waterdhavian troops are obligated to walk the walls of Silverymoon.
If an orc horde attacked Luruar, Waterdeep more than likely wouldn't even be able to get an army to them in time to do anything -- if they tried, they'd likely wind up with their troops in the middle of nowhere when the horde pushed on and found them.
OK, but it says "UNIFIED DEFENSE." |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 12:32:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If an orc horde attacked Luruar, Waterdeep more than likely wouldn't even be able to get an army to them in time to do anything -- if they tried, they'd likely wind up with their troops in the middle of nowhere when the horde pushed on and found them.
So you say they wouldn't send troops at all? A fine alliance that would be ;)
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 12:33:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If an orc horde attacked Luruar, Waterdeep more than likely wouldn't even be able to get an army to them in time to do anything -- if they tried, they'd likely wind up with their troops in the middle of nowhere when the horde pushed on and found them.
So you say they wouldn't send troops at all? A fine alliance that would be ;)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 12:50:20
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If an orc horde attacked Luruar, Waterdeep more than likely wouldn't even be able to get an army to them in time to do anything -- if they tried, they'd likely wind up with their troops in the middle of nowhere when the horde pushed on and found them.
So you say they wouldn't send troops at all? A fine alliance that would be ;)
If the horde was already there, any troops Waterdeep sent would simply be cut down en route. Who would that serve?
It's a different story if they knew a horde was coming, and had time to prepare -- but still, Luruar's own troops are the ones they can most readily gather, and will be gathering in larger numbers. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 12:51:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
OK, I found it from The North which you can download (I'll put the link at the end)
(page 68)
The Lords' Alliance
Leader: Lord Piergeiron of Waterdeep
Base of Operations: Waterdeep
Goal: UNIFIED DEFENSE OF NORTHERN CITIES and promotion of their economic interest
"...this lawful and essentially good economic and MILITARY alliance..."
http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/pdfs/North_69-101_politics-magic-index.pdf
A military allaince is not the same thing as a mutual defense treaty. A military alliance means they can help each other out -- it doesn't mean that Waterdhavian troops are obligated to walk the walls of Silverymoon.
If an orc horde attacked Luruar, Waterdeep more than likely wouldn't even be able to get an army to them in time to do anything -- if they tried, they'd likely wind up with their troops in the middle of nowhere when the horde pushed on and found them.
OK, but it says "UNIFIED DEFENSE."
Doesn't matter. There's only so much that can be done by a military force that's hundreds of miles away -- and that is needed at home.
Besides, why are we having this discussion in a thread about the Navy? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 13:31:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertBesides, why are we having this discussion in a thread about the Navy?
Because Army's locked?
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I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 15:00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the horde was already there, any troops Waterdeep sent would simply be cut down en route.
And why would that be? Can't they fight on their way to Luruar?
How was it than possible that they where able to send troops to Evereska, whicht they don't even have an alliance, to fight the phearim? |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 15:09:56
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We keep hearing that security is somehow bad for trade (well maybe illegal trade.)
From FR5 page 9:
"...military alliance of the rulers of cities in the North and along the Sword Coast works to keep the overland trade routes...as safe as possible..."
"Smaller towns and villages in the North wisely join the Allaince." (or else!)
"Large cities and towns not only patrol their own local lands,but also maintain garrisons in smaller towns and villages..."
page 15:
"The area around cities and towns is farmland, where common ecounters include cows, sheep...and military patrols (usually Waterdhavian or Neverwinter troops of the Lords' Alliance.)"
I suggested building a fort in Sword Mountains, well: page44
"Iniarv's Tower...a ruined fortress...attempts by the Lords' Alliance to rebuild it always end in failure." (hey guys, how about just build a new fort.)
Page 47:
"The High Road...it is HEAVILY PATROLLED by forces of the Lords' Alliance."
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Edited by - Riverwind on 07 May 2010 15:12:16 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 16:26:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Well we would need to ask the cities of the north which is better, bandits and orcs roaming the countryside or a professional army that can defend our common interest? I think everyone understands that the common interest is trade, and delays in trade caused by bandits and orcs are bad for business (time is money.) As far as some of the closer communities such as Goldenfields, they need to understand that if they were lost, Waterdeep would be screwed, and Waterdeep can't allow that to happen. I would offer them some type of joint operation of the new fort if they were that concerned about our presence.
As far as the nobles and the guilds: The new forts and forces will need supplies, weapons, horses, stone, wood, etc. All of these cost money, and Waterdeep needs to buy it off someone. I'm sure they would like that. Also the nobles and the guilds have an interest in a safe countryside. The nobles have estates and farms, and I'm sure they don't like wondering monsters and bandits.
And if the allies decline? The tone makes me think of imperialism and colonialism at once. The tone here is actually a bit scary with a underlying threat and I think there would be problem at once here.
And one thing I think you overlook every time here; Waterdeep doesn't have an "I" The nobles, guilds and merchants are not that easily calmed down as the army would be a threat to their position of power within the city. Their not idiots, if the Lords are willing to threaten the individual settlements they might next threaten the city's own factions. A few goldpieces more is not worth giving up their position within the structure of Waterdeep.
This sounds like a plan a centralized and strong state would try, more or less figuring that they can lead every one to follow their goals. Waterdeep is not in a position that would make this possible. Your plans might change the city in to something that might be able to "organize and Civilized" the North, but this would first demand another form of strong government. Which would probably have to be created with brutality and then Waterdeep would not me anything else than Zenthil Keep.
All this as I see it of course
The South: Waterdeep already controls Zundbridge and the crossing there over the Dessarin. I'm suggesting that the fortification be strengthened and the garrison be increased. As I said before, no invader would get to the north bank of the Dessarin, and because Waterdeep already controls Zundbridge, this should not bother anyone.
It seems like my questions about politics are constantly ignored, but anyway...
This will bother Amn, Thethyr Cormyr the city states etc. Any strengthening of the borders (when there is no threat) will most likely be seen as a first step in a plan to expand the borders. Which seems to be part of your logic any way. I think you underestimate how much of a problem this could lead to fro Waterdeep and how strong a country like Amn (who doesn't like Waterdeep much in the first place)really is if it decides to realy put its resources, both with trading and mercenaries, against Waterdeep.
I cant see the Harpers clapping their hands in approval either. |
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Waterdeep's Navy
