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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Apr 2010 : 17:34:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Riverwind, Sembia is a naval trading power facing an ongoing HUGE problem with pirates in the Sea of Fallen Stars (see the 2e sourcebook about those pirates), plus Calaunt, Zhentil Keep, and other "fierce to hostile" naval powers. Of COURSE they have a large navy.
BTW, they have almost NO army, just lots and lots of mercenaries that everyone can hire.
Comparing Sembia with Waterdeep really is comparing apples and oranges.
Also, your breakwater idea doesn't jibe with what you've been told about the harbour currents in Ed's thread...and once Waterdeep's harbour is gone and the city is a stinking center of disease, it really won't matter what army or navy the place has, it'll be in swift decline as a trading center!
BB
Blue, i'm sorry but perpendicular breakwaters would have no effect on the harbour current, and in fact if anything is effecting the current it's the existing walls in the harbour. That being said, you want the harbour to be very still, that's why we build breakwaters in real life around commercial ports. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2010 : 19:44:47
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Oh, dear. No offense, Riverwind, but "wrong" and "wrong."
Perpendicular breakwaters WILL affect all adjacent currents (that's why they're so rare, compared to buoyed harbour approach channels), and breakwaters don't make harbors "still" - - and such a state usually isn't desirable (algae buildup, silting, and gradual increase in pollution and loss of harbour due to infilling would result). Turning basins and "wet docks" often have near-still water, but seldom have breakwaters anywhere nearby.
Breakwaters prevent strong, direct onshore winds and currents (especially storm-driven extremes) that can damage vessels by smashing or grinding them against docks, and prevent less-than-tsunami "standing waves" that can beach boats, flood coastal land, and damage cargoes. In the days of sail, vessels often couldn't safely leave a harbour under the "wrong" onshore conditions.
Trust me; one of my assignments for more than a year was security at a particular North American port.
I repeat: Ed has already thought all of this through. He worldbuilds with a layer of depth and detail (which really means: know real-world conditions, think through implications of fantasy conditions such as working magic, and consider chains of consequences) few other game designers and fantasy fiction writers employ.
It's usually a mistake to apply our real-world, more-modern-than-Renaissance-at-the-latest military thinking and technologies to the Realms. Unless, like Ed, you think through the consequences.
(One root and obvious example of which is: technologies are inevitably going to develop differently in a magic-prevalent setting.)
love,
THO
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2010 : 20:21:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Oh, dear. No offense, Riverwind, but "wrong" and "wrong."
Perpendicular breakwaters WILL affect all adjacent currents (that's why they're so rare, compared to buoyed harbour approach channels), and breakwaters don't make harbors "still" - - and such a state usually isn't desirable (algae buildup, silting, and gradual increase in pollution and loss of harbour due to infilling would result). Turning basins and "wet docks" often have near-still water, but seldom have breakwaters anywhere nearby.
Breakwaters prevent strong, direct onshore winds and currents (especially storm-driven extremes) that can damage vessels by smashing or grinding them against docks, and prevent less-than-tsunami "standing waves" that can beach boats, flood coastal land, and damage cargoes. In the days of sail, vessels often couldn't safely leave a harbour under the "wrong" onshore conditions.
Trust me; one of my assignments for more than a year was security at a particular North American port.
I repeat: Ed has already thought all of this through. He worldbuilds with a layer of depth and detail (which really means: know real-world conditions, think through implications of fantasy conditions such as working magic, and consider chains of consequences) few other game designers and fantasy fiction writers employ.
It's usually a mistake to apply our real-world, more-modern-than-Renaissance-at-the-latest military thinking and technologies to the Realms. Unless, like Ed, you think through the consequences.
(One root and obvious example of which is: technologies are inevitably going to develop differently in a magic-prevalent setting.)
love,
THO
THO,
With all due respect, almost every modern port has been enhanced with man made breakwaters, here's a picture of Portland as just one of hundreds upon hundreds of examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Portland_harbour_south.JPG
Second, Waterdeep already has breakwaters in the form of the walls that extend into the harbour.
Third, Waterdeep is not in the age of sails. Waterdeep would have access to underwater creatures that could act as "tugboats," moving ships in or out of port no matter what the conditions are.
Lastly, it says in the last soucebook on Waterdeep that the Lords are looking into ways to enhance Waterdeep's defences due to what happened during the Deepwater War. I'm offering a suggestion, which everyone is telling me I'm wrong. Fine, but does anyone else have a suggestion? I'll be the first one to tell you that I don't have a PHD in underwater warfare, but it would be nice if someone could come up with something besides saying I'm wrong.
Edit: One more thing, defensive(built for war)breakwaters have been built throughout history. It's not new or radical. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 22 Apr 2010 20:57:25 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2010 : 23:05:59
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Also Whooly,
From page 17 ofthe most recent Waterdeep sourcebook:
"The recent invasion from from the sea during the Deeepwater War...revealed weaknesses in Waterdeep's defences, which the Lords are moving quickly to correct."
And on page 18: "The city's natural harbor is a nigh-perfect redoubt on the Trackless Sea."
Which would tend to suggest that significant changes aren't necessary, wouldn't you agree? Couple that with THO's comments with regard to EG having thought about this, over the 40 years that he has, to a ridiculously prolific level...
Would that mean that the Lords of Waterdeep have undertaken some changes in patrol routes? Would they have added to areas in which they are already capable, like intelligence, which obviously failed? Would they have offered additional assistance in the form of magic and various other materiél to the subsurface communities in the vicinity? All reasonable.
Would it mean that they would choose to install a barrier to shipping? Highly unlikely.
Yes the harbour is a perfect redoubt against a surface invader, but clearly not against a submerged threat.
Why do you guys keep saying that I'm suggesting cutting off shipping? That is not what I'm saying.
Also why are you guys acting like I'm attacking Ed Greenwood? I own pretty much everything with a FR logo on it, I love the material. But to say if Ed didn't think of it back in 1968 it's clearly not a good idea is crazy. Look how many authors have added to the Realms over the years. Also, this is a message board to discuss the Realms, not Ed's blog. I'm sure (although I don't know) he likes players and readers who challange ideas and not just bow to him and say, "what you did in 1968 was perfect, don't change a thing."
So again, I love Mr.Greenwood. I would not be posting here if I didn't like the material. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 22 Apr 2010 23:07:00 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 02:07:22
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We're not attacking you for disagreeing with Ed. Actually, I don't think we're attacking you at all. Certainly not by the standards of the 4e fist-fights that went on for months, and *those* were tame compared to some of what happened over at WotC.
I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I can tell you that you are doing something that drives me, at least, totally nuts: you aren't listening. You came here to ask advice and give ideas, with your subsea wall being one of the biggest. We have told you repeatedly, politely, and with much evidence, that it will not work, and that there is very good reason that it doesn't exist already. You have ignored our advice and continue asking the same questions, then seem surprised and angry when we say, yet again, that it wouldn't work. We aren't here to serve as an echo chamber, parroting back "That's a brilliant idea!" even when it isn't. We are here to give the best advice we can, on whatever subject, as best fits the Realms both thematically and technologically.
Now, it would be different if you admitted that what you're asking about isn't practical up front. For instance "I know this is totally impractical, but I want to do it for my game, can you give me some ideas on how to make it work?" That sort of mind game is actually really fun, and could be applied to nearly any sort of difference. In the case of your sea wall, we could get into vortices to the plane of water to keep the harbor clean, massive earth shaping spells to create the wall, the work of centuries of merfolk or sea elves to build it, that sort of thing. Approach us, work with us, and we're willing to go to all sorts of strange places. But don't ask for our help, reject what we say, then ask the same thing all over again as though we'd forget you just asked us. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 02:13:36
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Okay, I think some of the scribes involved in this particular discussion need to take note of what Hoondatha just said above, and re-consider how they are participating in this scroll.
I don't want to have to lock this topic, because it's still an intriguing discussion. Let's try to remember that, eh?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 23 Apr 2010 02:14:12 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 05:15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
We're not attacking you for disagreeing with Ed. Actually, I don't think we're attacking you at all. Certainly not by the standards of the 4e fist-fights that went on for months, and *those* were tame compared to some of what happened over at WotC.
I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I can tell you that you are doing something that drives me, at least, totally nuts: you aren't listening. You came here to ask advice and give ideas, with your subsea wall being one of the biggest. We have told you repeatedly, politely, and with much evidence, that it will not work, and that there is very good reason that it doesn't exist already. You have ignored our advice and continue asking the same questions, then seem surprised and angry when we say, yet again, that it wouldn't work. We aren't here to serve as an echo chamber, parroting back "That's a brilliant idea!" even when it isn't. We are here to give the best advice we can, on whatever subject, as best fits the Realms both thematically and technologically.
Now, it would be different if you admitted that what you're asking about isn't practical up front. For instance "I know this is totally impractical, but I want to do it for my game, can you give me some ideas on how to make it work?" That sort of mind game is actually really fun, and could be applied to nearly any sort of difference. In the case of your sea wall, we could get into vortices to the plane of water to keep the harbor clean, massive earth shaping spells to create the wall, the work of centuries of merfolk or sea elves to build it, that sort of thing. Approach us, work with us, and we're willing to go to all sorts of strange places. But don't ask for our help, reject what we say, then ask the same thing all over again as though we'd forget you just asked us.
Point taken. I'll drop my idea (although people kept saying that I was proposing cutting off shipping that's not what I was saying.)
But fine. Does anyone have any ideas on protecting the city from underwater threats besides the status quo, everything is fine line?
I'm sorry for repeating myself, but I'm never wrong |
Edited by - Riverwind on 23 Apr 2010 05:19:55 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 07:09:46
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OK, here's my second attempt at improving the great city's harbour defences: (drawings are crude, sorry.)
Western Sector:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49555369@N03/4544635073/in/photostream/
Eastern Sector:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49555369@N03/4544635031/in/photostream/
The idea here is to provide a second layer of defence of the harbour with a series of new walls creating a type of lock system by always keeping at least one set of tower chains locked. As shipping moved into the zone, one tower chain would open and the other would close. This setup would provide protection from both surface and submerged threats.
EDIT: It's late, and I'm getting my east and west wrong. It should be the other way around, sorry. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 23 Apr 2010 07:16:14 |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 08:58:18
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| The problem with the break water idea, Riverwind is that they're a very modern invention. Traditional harbour breakwaters, Moles, were built into open water to create areas of calm water were there were no natural barriers. They were never built in natural harbours because they were both uneeded and added massive problems with silting that can only be prevented by heavy dredging. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 13:19:03
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Hydraulics is part of the concern. The silting that occurs when barriers are established.
Punget Sound, AFAIK, has no silting problem because of the speed of the water that stream off the mountains. The Mississippi delta is the result of silting (Though human transformation has made efforts to reduce that).
One thing that waterdeep could look at is nets. They cause fewer barriers as far as slit goes. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 14:16:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hydraulics is part of the concern. The silting that occurs when barriers are established.
Punget Sound, AFAIK, has no silting problem because of the speed of the water that stream off the mountains. The Mississippi delta is the result of silting (Though human transformation has made efforts to reduce that).
One thing that waterdeep could look at is nets. They cause fewer barriers as far as slit goes.
Speaking of nets, don't they use them to collect the garbage coming out of the sewers (there's the best job in the city, and now that I think of it, that doesn't make a lot sense.) The harbour must be pretty funky. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 14:29:18
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Well, that's part of why no one wants to block the water flow, because without that "flushing" effect, the harbor turns into a cesspool really quickly.
I was also thinking that nets, probably made out of some sort of metal (mithril or adamantine, preferably, but everbright steel if that doesn't work), would probably be the most likely candidate, but that could get really expensive, and without regular patrols wouldn't be likely to do much good.
On a side note, does anyone know how deep the harbor actually is? I keep thinking its several thousand feet deep, but I'm not sure if that's an accurate memory or if I'm just making stuff up.
Finally, Riverwind, do you have an Al'Qadim material? If so, take a look at the pirate city of Hawa. As detail in, I think, Corsairs of the [adjective-I've-forgotten] Sea, it sits in a recessed bay protected by a massive coral reef that the local sea elves periodically rearrange using magic. Waterdeep's water is too cold for coral, but it's another subsea defense to add to your list.
For that matter, simply letting great kelp forests grow in the harbor mouth might help. Build some merfolk garrisons among them, patrol them regularly to be familiar with them, and then trap the hells out of them (both magical and mundane), and you could have a seriously intimidating barrier that not only wouldn't obstruct the outgoing water flow but could actually be harvested for food and trade with the city. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 06:00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Well, that's part of why no one wants to block the water flow, because without that "flushing" effect, the harbor turns into a cesspool really quickly.
I was also thinking that nets, probably made out of some sort of metal (mithril or adamantine, preferably, but everbright steel if that doesn't work), would probably be the most likely candidate, but that could get really expensive, and without regular patrols wouldn't be likely to do much good.
On a side note, does anyone know how deep the harbor actually is? I keep thinking its several thousand feet deep, but I'm not sure if that's an accurate memory or if I'm just making stuff up.
Finally, Riverwind, do you have an Al'Qadim material? If so, take a look at the pirate city of Hawa. As detail in, I think, Corsairs of the [adjective-I've-forgotten] Sea, it sits in a recessed bay protected by a massive coral reef that the local sea elves periodically rearrange using magic. Waterdeep's water is too cold for coral, but it's another subsea defense to add to your list.
For that matter, simply letting great kelp forests grow in the harbor mouth might help. Build some merfolk garrisons among them, patrol them regularly to be familiar with them, and then trap the hells out of them (both magical and mundane), and you could have a seriously intimidating barrier that not only wouldn't obstruct the outgoing water flow but could actually be harvested for food and trade with the city.
The harbour isn't that deep is it? Also the map shows different shades of blue which I guess shows different depth. If you had gates under the waterline say by 20(?) feet or so, that would limit the amount of invaders that could enter the harbour but I'm not sure what the dispacement of the ships is, but it's not like they're supertankers.
No I don't have the Al'Qadim stuff.
I guess nobody liked my "locks" idea. I'm 0 for 2 now. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 24 Apr 2010 06:01:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 15:36:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Well, that's part of why no one wants to block the water flow, because without that "flushing" effect, the harbor turns into a cesspool really quickly.
I was also thinking that nets, probably made out of some sort of metal (mithril or adamantine, preferably, but everbright steel if that doesn't work), would probably be the most likely candidate, but that could get really expensive, and without regular patrols wouldn't be likely to do much good.
On a side note, does anyone know how deep the harbor actually is? I keep thinking its several thousand feet deep, but I'm not sure if that's an accurate memory or if I'm just making stuff up.
Finally, Riverwind, do you have an Al'Qadim material? If so, take a look at the pirate city of Hawa. As detail in, I think, Corsairs of the [adjective-I've-forgotten] Sea, it sits in a recessed bay protected by a massive coral reef that the local sea elves periodically rearrange using magic. Waterdeep's water is too cold for coral, but it's another subsea defense to add to your list.
For that matter, simply letting great kelp forests grow in the harbor mouth might help. Build some merfolk garrisons among them, patrol them regularly to be familiar with them, and then trap the hells out of them (both magical and mundane), and you could have a seriously intimidating barrier that not only wouldn't obstruct the outgoing water flow but could actually be harvested for food and trade with the city.
The harbour isn't that deep is it? Also the map shows different shades of blue which I guess shows different depth. If you had gates under the waterline say by 20(?) feet or so, that would limit the amount of invaders that could enter the harbour but I'm not sure what the dispacement of the ships is, but it's not like they're supertankers.
No I don't have the Al'Qadim stuff.
I guess nobody liked my "locks" idea. I'm 0 for 2 now.
I don't think undersea gates would have worked in the previous attack against Waterdeep. Iakhovas and his pals weren't even from the Sea of Swords -- they came from the Sea of Fallen Stars. If there had been gates in the harbor, the magic that got them from one body of water to the other could have simply targeted the inner harbor. Or he could have done like he did against the Sharksbane Wall -- blow up part of it and then go thru the breach. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2010 : 05:18:08
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
The problem with the break water idea, Riverwind is that they're a very modern invention. Traditional harbour breakwaters, Moles, were built into open water to create areas of calm water were there were no natural barriers. They were never built in natural harbours because they were both uneeded and added massive problems with silting that can only be prevented by heavy dredging.
The harbour portions of the Walls of Dubrovnik which included breakwaters to create kill zones were constructed in 1485. |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2010 : 16:30:14
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Err, have you looked or read up on the city walls of Dubrovnik? It's tiny. It also has no moles, but has the advantage of a natural ridge of stone cliffs that curve out to from a small cove. The walls are built on the cliffs. At the very tip of the cliff, where it curves back towards land, they built a keep that overlooks the harbour mouth.
That's a very different thing from building large moles into a deep water harbour. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2010 : 05:14:37
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
Err, have you looked or read up on the city walls of Dubrovnik? It's tiny. It also has no moles, but has the advantage of a natural ridge of stone cliffs that curve out to from a small cove. The walls are built on the cliffs. At the very tip of the cliff, where it curves back towards land, they built a keep that overlooks the harbour mouth.
That's a very different thing from building large moles into a deep water harbour.
Tiny? I think they are considered the most impressive of the time. |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2010 : 11:41:10
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| As a citadel, Ragusa (to give Dubrovnik it's Venitian name) certainly is impressive. As a fortified harbour? Not so much. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2010 : 15:59:29
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
As a citadel, Ragusa (to give Dubrovnik it's Venitian name) certainly is impressive. As a fortified harbour? Not so much.
The entire network of walls is miles and miles long, that's a bit more than a citadel. Anyway, my point was to a poster who said that breakwaters were a modern ivention. They're not. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 04:38:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Riverwind, Sembia is a naval trading power facing an ongoing HUGE problem with pirates in the Sea of Fallen Stars (see the 2e sourcebook about those pirates), plus Calaunt, Zhentil Keep, and other "fierce to hostile" naval powers. Of COURSE they have a large navy.
BTW, they have almost NO army, just lots and lots of mercenaries that everyone can hire.
Comparing Sembia with Waterdeep really is comparing apples and oranges.
Blueblade,
Sembia has a huge army, with 25,450 troops. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 08:28:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Riverwind, Sembia is a naval trading power facing an ongoing HUGE problem with pirates in the Sea of Fallen Stars (see the 2e sourcebook about those pirates), plus Calaunt, Zhentil Keep, and other "fierce to hostile" naval powers. Of COURSE they have a large navy.
BTW, they have almost NO army, just lots and lots of mercenaries that everyone can hire.
Comparing Sembia with Waterdeep really is comparing apples and oranges.
Blueblade,
Sembia has a huge army, with 25,450 troops.
Riverwind,
If you go by the numbers, and then take into account factors of population and territory that needs to be controlled / defended, Sembia's army may actually be weaker than Waterdeep's! "Huge" is relative... |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 08:48:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Riverwind, Sembia is a naval trading power facing an ongoing HUGE problem with pirates in the Sea of Fallen Stars (see the 2e sourcebook about those pirates), plus Calaunt, Zhentil Keep, and other "fierce to hostile" naval powers. Of COURSE they have a large navy.
BTW, they have almost NO army, just lots and lots of mercenaries that everyone can hire.
Comparing Sembia with Waterdeep really is comparing apples and oranges.
Blueblade,
Sembia has a huge army, with 25,450 troops.
Riverwind,
If you go by the numbers, and then take into account factors of population and territory that needs to be controlled / defended, Sembia's army may actually be weaker than Waterdeep's! "Huge" is relative...
True, I was just responding to the poster who said Sembia had NO army. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2010 : 20:50:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Oh, and one more thing: the harbor forts are unmanned except in times of war.
THO, I just wanted to point out page 11 of FR1:
"The navy's base is fortified Deepwatch Isle, which protects the harbor mouth from weather and from seaborne attackers, and is garrisoned by almost a thousand guardsman at all times."
Anyway, thanks for all your help. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2010 : 21:37:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Oh, and one more thing: the harbor forts are unmanned except in times of war.
THO, I just wanted to point out page 11 of FR1:
"The navy's base is fortified Deepwatch Isle, which protects the harbor mouth from weather and from seaborne attackers, and is garrisoned by almost a thousand guardsman at all times."
Anyway, thanks for all your help.
River, maybe I should remind you you are referring to what appears to be a 1st Edition Product? My search indicates FR1 copyright date was 1987. 2nd Edition copyright date appears to be 1989.
Water deep has have had to suffer Edition changes, rules changes in addition to what Role Play changes that took place over the years.
I also ask you to remember that any source book looks at a period of time. The sea forts clearly could have been manned by Guard because a period of raiders on the traders was more common.
THO knows the home campaign because of her friendship/association with Edward Greenwood. This though is to be treated as a guide.
Ed has indicated often that what he submitted to TSR/WotC has often either being placed on hold or changed.
FR is a shared world that Ed invented, he does not control it. However he does have the right to offer canon that does not conflict with print. He uses THO as his spokesperson. It does become hard to say she is wrong, even when speaking for herself.
In some ways it might be useful to remind readers that your main source of reference is FR1. In some ways discussion maybe should be focused about that period of time. IIRC FR1 was before the Time of Troubles that changed the world. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2010 : 23:23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Oh, and one more thing: the harbor forts are unmanned except in times of war.
THO, I just wanted to point out page 11 of FR1:
"The navy's base is fortified Deepwatch Isle, which protects the harbor mouth from weather and from seaborne attackers, and is garrisoned by almost a thousand guardsman at all times."
Anyway, thanks for all your help.
River, maybe I should remind you you are referring to what appears to be a 1st Edition Product? My search indicates FR1 copyright date was 1987. 2nd Edition copyright date appears to be 1989.
Water deep has have had to suffer Edition changes, rules changes in addition to what Role Play changes that took place over the years.
I also ask you to remember that any source book looks at a period of time. The sea forts clearly could have been manned by Guard because a period of raiders on the traders was more common.
THO knows the home campaign because of her friendship/association with Edward Greenwood. This though is to be treated as a guide.
Ed has indicated often that what he submitted to TSR/WotC has often either being placed on hold or changed.
FR is a shared world that Ed invented, he does not control it. However he does have the right to offer canon that does not conflict with print. He uses THO as his spokesperson. It does become hard to say she is wrong, even when speaking for herself.
In some ways it might be useful to remind readers that your main source of reference is FR1. In some ways discussion maybe should be focused about that period of time. IIRC FR1 was before the Time of Troubles that changed the world.
Hmmm... yeah, except that the same passage appears in the boxed set City of Splendors, "Companion Guide to the City", p. 10. Plus, it does say "at all times", no exceptions. That's 2nd Edition, set in 1367 DR, after the Time of Troubles. I cannot comment on what changes 3rd edition brought, since I do not have the materials. To a certain extent, THO's version (which i presume is drawn from her experience as a player in Big Ed's games) seems to contradict canon.
Still, it does not mean that what THO said was "wrong", and what Riverwind read in canon material was "wrong".
Attempting to do a "Krash treatment" on it, à la Impiltur and "Fallen Kingdom". Deepwater Isle is only one of the harbour forts, so it's still quite possible that the others (Stormhaven Island, Harborwatch Tower) are not manned (as the passage only refers to Deepwater Isle). Even so, as Riverwind already pointed out the navy's manpower is separate from the Guard and the Watch, and those guys have to sleep somewhere. So I would say that the passage referred to in FR1 and CoS merely indicates that the one of the fortified island has a permanent garrison, it says nothing about the others. And, furthermore, "garrisoned", in my view, means that that is where the sailors are based, but it does not mean they are all there at any given time... But there would still be some permanent presence (unless everyone was out at sea, which seems statistically impossible to me...). |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 03:32:19
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Ah, I see where the confusion is rising, gents.
In nomenclature.
When I said "harbor forts" I did not mean the naval base of Deepwater Isle. I meant the unnamed towers located along the "arm" walls.
If you look at the 2nd Edition CITY OF SPLENDORS Waterdeep maps, anything with a name (like "Harborwatch Tower" and "Outer Fort" [which is a mistake, BTW; it should read "Outer Beacon Tower"] is NOT a "harbor fort" in Ed's parlance.
To him, and therefore to me and all the players in Ed's campaign, a "harbor fort" is one of the little towers incorporated into the walls. Which are indeed unmanned except in times of war or alert readiness for war. They are sometimes used as housing for crews trapped in the harbor by severe weather or even for a winter, and (very rarely) for quarantining. They do have catapults and ballistae mounted atop them (crenelated waist-walls around).
The named forts ARE always manned, but NOT by the Navy, and therefore shouldn't be counted into naval strength.
The named forts are normally manned in shifts by small patrols consisting of: two Guard officers, one Watchful Order Magist, a veteran lookout and a trainee lookout from the Guild of Watermen, and a veteran lookout and a trainee lookout from the Master Mariners' Guild, plus three pages (messenger-runners, usually young and fit boys) from Peirgeiron's Palace.
There are heavier guards only where needed to control the harbor chains and when dockside fighting or security problems (caged monsters being unloaded, for instance, or a ship calling in from Luskan) are expected.
Sorry for the delay in clearing this up. I hadn't checked this thread for a day or so, being too busy with real-world matters and keeping up to date with Ed's Questions thread.
I hope this clears up some of the debate.
love to all,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 06 May 2010 16:17:47 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 03:36:07
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Oh, and a postscript: Riverwind and Blueblade are BOTH correct about Sembia's army.
It is as large as Riverwind quotes, from the rulebooks - - but it IS almost all mercenaries. The "career army" who are "sworn to Ordulin" is a mere skeleton, who serve as officers in command of the mercenaries.
About a thousand all told, I think, though I'd have to check with Ed.
And to restate something that it seems many gamers have to be reminded of, time and again: by the original Realms agreement (which is the instrument by which any of you outside the small circle of those who've actually played in the Realms with Ed as DM got to see the Realms at all), anything Ed Greenwood says about the Realms is canon, by definition, unless or until contradicted by something in print. That's the way it all works, and has since 1986. (That's one of the reasons I'm always careful to tell you when I'm quoting Ed directly, or telling you my experiences, or trying to remember/paraphrasing what Ed said.) Just as Tolkien was THE expert on Middle-Earth and Anne McCaffrey is THE expert on Pern, Ed is THE expert on the Realms.
You're stuck with him, folks. 
(Can't think of a nicer guy to get stuck with, myself...)
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 05 May 2010 03:41:02 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 04:29:06
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@ THO, re: harbor forts: That's a really interesting point, and does clear up the confusion I was having regarding what was where.
This whole conversation, and the one over in the Waterdeep's Army thread, has really brought something home to me about the city that I hadn't fully realized before: in times of peace, Waterdeep really doesn't have the ready-at-hand manpower to stop a surprise attack in force from penetrating the walls and getting into the city.
Which, come to think of it, makes sense. Waterdeep is a city, after all, not a fortress like, say High Horn or Darkhold, which is expected to be able to fend off an attack at any moment. Against such a surprise attack, its defense would be much like Calimshan's: absorb the attackers with its sheer bulk and buy time for its defenders to respond.
This is probably a fairly basic observation, but I've never dealt much with Waterdeep in my Realms, so haven't had much chance before now to think deep thoughts about it. And, of the off chance others here are as slow as I am, I figured I'd share.
Which brings me to a slightly different question for you, THO. Based on your experience, how would you rate Waterdeep's defenses if it has time to recognize an attack and plan accordingly? Say an orc or barbarian horde is a tenday or two away and definitely aiming at sacking Waterdeep. How effective are the defenses at their canonaical strongest? We've seen it shrug off a sahuagin attack, and there were the occasional barbarian horde, but what if, say, Obould and Greneire (sp?) had decided to join forces and attack Waterdeep instead of slaughtering each other at the Citadel of Many Arrows?
And, to bring these questions back to the water, is it even possible to successfully besiege the city when it has such a wonderful harbor? If Waterdeep is cut off from Goldenfields, can it import enough food to keep its populace fed? And what about when winter comes? I assume these are things the Lords and the Guard have planned for, since the aren't outside the realm of possibility. What is their general opinion?
Though debating with Riverwind is occasionally reminiscent of banging one's head against a brick wall, I do thank him for making me think about the particulars of Waterdeep more than I have before. And no, I'm not surprised to find that Ed had this all figured out before I was even born. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 11:20:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Oh, and one more thing: the harbor forts are unmanned except in times of war.
THO, I just wanted to point out page 11 of FR1:
"The navy's base is fortified Deepwatch Isle, which protects the harbor mouth from weather and from seaborne attackers, and is garrisoned by almost a thousand guardsman at all times."
Anyway, thanks for all your help.
I've missed this part. Its logical, as the navy would require a standing, trained force. It also gives the city a reserve that could help within the city itself if some minor trouble started or if the main guards were overworked for some reason and the rulers were afraid things might get out of control. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2010 : 14:11:40
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I'm going to regret this. In COS they update the line from FR1 a little: (page 34)
"The navy is based in the Inner Fort, the Outer Fort, Smuggler's Bane Tower, and Harborwatch Tower, collectively garrisoned by almost a thousand marines at all times."
I guessing these marines are ones that are not out on patrol, but what happens when the whole navy has to sortie? We already know that the navy, with 2,000 members, does not have enough personnel to man all of her ships. If the navy has to sortie, these forts like the ones entrusted to the Guard, become lightly manned or unmanned.
If we look at the Battle of Waterdeep Harbor, the initial attack came from surface ships, not from creatures under the waterline. The initial strike team posed as shippers, entered the harbor and attacked Smugglers' Bane Tower. Once that fort fell, the invaders were able to keep the gates open. IMO, none of the forts should be easily taken by the enemy, there should be multiple layers of defence, but that takes manpower. After the battle, the entire merchant fleet in Waterdeep was destroyed, and Dock Ward was in ruin.
Here's something very telling IMO, a merfolk talking after the battle: (page 218, Threat From The Sea Single Edition)
"Even if we'd told the Lords of Waterdeep about the attack, they wouldn't have been prepared. They wouldn't have given much credence to our fears"
This sounds like the defenders of the city were overconfident, even arrogant. So like the Guard, I think they need more men. I'm not saying they should take over the world, but they should be able to defend the city and meet their mission: (COS page 34)
"...a navy capable of DOMINATING its rivals...' |
Edited by - Riverwind on 05 May 2010 14:13:27 |
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Waterdeep's Navy
