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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2012 :  00:28:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Can we take things down a notch, before it gets too ugly in here?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe

USA
215 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2012 :  00:40:44  Show Profile Send Wolfhound75 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Too late Wooly....I'm already here!


Good Hunting!

"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb

"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!"
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2012 :  00:46:44  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Imp

I disagree. I'm going to say whatever I like as long I'm not breaching this sites CoC. Who are you to force your opinion on me? To take away my right to free expression and freedom of speech?
I certainly will not endorse any initiative here at Candlekeep that results in anything like that.

As I've said many times, I'm uncomfortable with the notion of censoring speech. Which is why I rely heavily on the dictates of the site's Code of Conduct for support in this.

So, at it's heart, I agree with Imp. Scribes are freely able to positively engage in discussion about the Realms so long as we all, each and every one of us, recognise that opinions will always come into conflict.

But we need to remember that respecting the opinions of other is also crucial to the healthy productivity of this site.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2012 :  04:29:19  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Scribes are freely able to positively engage in discussion about the Realms so long as we all, each and every one of us, recognise that opinions will always come into conflict.

But we need to remember that respecting the opinions of other is also crucial to the healthy productivity of this site.


I agree... and what some scribes have forgotten at various times (including myself, in the early days of the 4E Realms) is that having one's opinions respected does not entail having those opinions agreed with... and to have productive debate stifled by partisan ranting or (worse) personal attacks does not help matters. I'm referring primarily to a recent scroll that attempted to constructively change some attitudes regarding the fallout from the edition wars and what should be done with D&DNext. I'm still somewhat in shock from all of that, and I've been wanting to resume the debate, but I haven't bothered out of my sense that anything productive would be overrun by trolls. So, for the moment, I'll continue drifting from scroll to scroll, contributing and commenting as I'm able, but I would very much like to see those of us with the maturity to civilly discuss the aforementioned issues to continue to do so, and for those without it to stay away.
quote:
If you can't say anything nice, including constructive criticism, don't say anything at all.

Wise words... and we would all do well to heed them.

Rant over.

Edit: Mods, please let me know if I'm off the mark in any way with this post; I still get rather... 'irritated' isn't quite strong enough a word, but 'enraged' is too strong... when I think about the previously-described incident.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 08 Feb 2012 04:36:09
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2012 :  04:41:50  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

... and what some scribes have forgotten at various times (including myself, in the early days of the 4E Realms) is that having one's opinions respected does not entail having those opinions agreed with...
I'll admit, I'm guilty of this myself. I think we all tend to forget, sometimes, that we can respectfully still disagree.

It's when the disagreement is either disrespectful or rude, that the problems start.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2012 :  22:41:54  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

... and what some scribes have forgotten at various times (including myself, in the early days of the 4E Realms) is that having one's opinions respected does not entail having those opinions agreed with...
I'll admit, I'm guilty of this myself. I think we all tend to forget, sometimes, that we can respectfully still disagree.

It's when the disagreement is either disrespectful or rude, that the problems start.
Or when someone mistakes disagreement for disrespect; that's happened a few times in my time here as well. Anyway, hopefully things have calmed down around here. I'd like to suggest an effort on our part of fence-mending with certain people; some WotC employees or contributors have made their presence here all but extinct over the course of the Edition Wars, and I'd like to see us as a community take the initiative and extend an olive branch to those who left our halls because of animosity over the Spellplague. I'm thinking primarily of Bruce Cordell here; regardless of how we might feel about his love for the Far Realm, I believe that he was unfairly blamed for many of the decisions regarding the 4E Realms that were handed down from above and not his call at all, and we could all benefit from having contact with another inside figure at WotC. All that being said, some recent events tell me that he might be better off in some ways turning down this offering, so this is also a renewal of my call for unity at the Keep. If anyone can think of a good reason not to have a member of the development team of the new edition of the rules return to our halls and hear what we have to respectfully suggest, I'd like to hear it. Anyway, enough from me. Wooly? Sage? Alaundo? Others? Your thoughts?

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe

USA
215 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2012 :  23:18:57  Show Profile Send Wolfhound75 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*Applause*

"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb

"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!"
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2012 :  23:51:11  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think thatís a great idea Jakk.

In the interests of keeping a second divide from forming by rumors about 5E getting started and then slowly transforming into fact through continuous repetition (as happened over the life of 4E), I think itís a good idea that we identify and invite anyone on the 5E Realms design team to come here and talk with the community on the Chamber of Sages shelf.

I think an invitation could be extended to Bruce Cordell (assuming heís even interested).

Regardless, both moderators would need to take an active role in order to keep things from getting out of hand.

Lately a few scribes have gone out of their way to be highly insulting towards the 4E Realms design team (despite The Sageís call at the start of this scroll to respect otherís opinions without being insulting) and Iíd hate to see any discussion ended before it has a chance to even get going.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2012 :  23:59:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

I think thatís a great idea Jakk.

In the interests of keeping a second divide from forming by rumors about 5E getting started and then slowly transforming into fact through continuous repetition (as happened over the life of 4E), I think itís a good idea that we identify and invite anyone on the 5E Realms design team to come here and talk with the community on the Chamber of Sages shelf.

I think an invitation could be extended to Bruce Cordell (assuming heís even interested).

Regardless, both moderators would need to take an active role in order to keep things from getting out of hand.

Lately a few scribes have gone out of their way to be highly insulting towards the 4E Realms design team (despite The Sageís call at the start of this scroll to respect otherís opinions without being insulting) and Iíd hate to see any discussion ended before it has a chance to even get going.




I should like to think that "both moderators" have taken an active role in keeping things from getting out of hand.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2012 :  00:09:07  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Man I can't catch a break.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I should like to think that "both moderators" have taken an active role in keeping things from getting out of hand.

Apologies. My post originally included a comment near the end that The Sage appears to be taking a step back from moderating (for a short time).

Before my final edit and post I cut that portion of the comment out, then moved the remainder (the part you quoted) up to the middle of my post.

So no, I wasn't implying only The Sage is taking an active role in moderation.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2012 :  00:27:11  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The optimistic side of me thinks this is a great idea and feels it would go a long way in WotC mending the divide and reassuring fans the setting is in good hands.

However, the realistic side of me asks if this is even a possibility. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've not seen most of the 4E FR architects ever having a strong presence here or even at the WotC FR forums, with the exception of Ed and Rich Baker. Most of the 4E FR team is no longer with the company, including Rich.

Also, possibly due to Rich's unfortunate treatment during the 4E transition, but most likely his work shifting him elsewhere (A&A miniatures, 4E core) during his later tenure with WotC, his interaction with the FR community (Candlekeep and WotC FR) lessened to virtually nothing.

I suppose the only one with any significant FR work under his belt is Bruce Cordell, but has it even been confirmed he is on the 5E FR development team?

The 4E version of FR is still a hot button topic with many fans. I hate to say it, but I'm not comfortable inviting a designer or author here only to see him (or her) experience an all too predictable result. As much as I disagree with some of those designers, it's not fair to them.

Maybe a better route could be to have a moderator (such as one of Candlekeep's moderators) act as intermediary with any designer willing to participate. This might help keep the communication focused on the vital matters.

I'm also curious as to what rumors turned to fact through repetition during 4E? As far as I recall, 4E FR sprang fully formed before WotC unveiled it to the market.

I don't expect WotC to do anything different come 5E FR. They took into account the existing situation and formulate their intended changes for the Realms. We will see the result of their work when they feel it ready to preview in the drive towards the release date.

Edited by - Dark Wizard on 09 Feb 2012 00:33:48
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2012 :  00:59:13  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

I think an invitation could be extended to Bruce Cordell (assuming heís even interested).
Bruce already has a "Questions" scroll, here:- http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9676

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2012 :  01:01:05  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I should like to think that "both moderators" have taken an active role in keeping things from getting out of hand.

Indeed. And I'd like to applaud Wooly's efforts in keeping most of the 4e-related discussions, and by extension, the edition debates, in order -- especially when I've not been here [since that's largely the time these discussions appear to take place].

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2012 :  04:30:12  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

I think thatís a great idea Jakk.

In the interests of keeping a second divide from forming by rumors about 5E getting started and then slowly transforming into fact through continuous repetition (as happened over the life of 4E), I think itís a good idea that we identify and invite anyone on the 5E Realms design team to come here and talk with the community on the Chamber of Sages shelf.

I think an invitation could be extended to Bruce Cordell (assuming heís even interested).

Regardless, both moderators would need to take an active role in order to keep things from getting out of hand.

Lately a few scribes have gone out of their way to be highly insulting towards the 4E Realms design team (despite The Sageís call at the start of this scroll to respect otherís opinions without being insulting) and Iíd hate to see any discussion ended before it has a chance to even get going.


Only lately? I'd say it was at its worst a year and a half ago, before The Sage opened this scroll. But I completely agree with your dismal predictions, after what happened with your attempt to encourage unity. I'm still dismayed by the way that ended. And yes, Sage, Bruce already has a scroll here, but check the date of his last post. He hasn't been around in quite some time, and I don't blame him for it, considering the things that were said about the 4E Realms (something I played no small part in, to my great shame). Honestly, I still don't care for it as a setting in its entirety, but it has its good points that I've felt free to cherry-pick from; Returned Abeir would be great if it had its own book; ditto for the Abolethic Sovereignty; and the same for Akanul and Tymanther (although I share other scribes' concerns that it was a bit of wheel-reinventing).

quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard

The optimistic side of me thinks this is a great idea and feels it would go a long way in WotC mending the divide and reassuring fans the setting is in good hands.

However, the realistic side of me asks if this is even a possibility. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've not seen most of the 4E FR architects ever having a strong presence here or even at the WotC FR forums, with the exception of Ed and Rich Baker. Most of the 4E FR team is no longer with the company, including Rich.

Also, possibly due to Rich's unfortunate treatment during the 4E transition, but most likely his work shifting him elsewhere (A&A miniatures, 4E core) during his later tenure with WotC, his interaction with the FR community (Candlekeep and WotC FR) lessened to virtually nothing.

I suppose the only one with any significant FR work under his belt is Bruce Cordell, but has it even been confirmed he is on the 5E FR development team?

The 4E version of FR is still a hot button topic with many fans. I hate to say it, but I'm not comfortable inviting a designer or author here only to see him (or her) experience an all too predictable result. As much as I disagree with some of those designers, it's not fair to them.

Maybe a better route could be to have a moderator (such as one of Candlekeep's moderators) act as intermediary with any designer willing to participate. This might help keep the communication focused on the vital matters.


I also think that Dark Wizard raises some legitimate concerns, and he may have the best way to go about the process until we know more about what the 5E Realms will look like. And yes, Dark Wizard, from what I've read, Bruce is in fact on the 5E team. I don't recall his specific role, however.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 09 Feb 2012 04:33:45
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2012 :  04:54:46  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

And yes, Sage, Bruce already has a scroll here, but check the date of his last post. He hasn't been around in quite some time, and I don't blame him for it, considering the things that were said about the 4E Realms (something I played no small part in, to my great shame).
Actually, way back when I last sent him a message, Bruce informed me that lack of time was preventing his participation here at Candlekeep.

And given his great hand in developing 4e material, I can't imagine that lacking has changed all that much.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2012 :  05:52:57  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Actually, way back when I last sent him a message, Bruce informed me that lack of time was preventing his participation here at Candlekeep.

And given his great hand in developing 4e material, I can't imagine that lacking has changed all that much.


I hope he wasn't just being nice... but as you say, with the great number of projects he's involved in, it's very likely that time really is a significant factor for him. It's good to know that much, at least.

Perhaps we should invite Monte Cook into the Keep... From Jason Buhlman's foreword to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, he would be a fascinating person to talk game design with... and with an open playtest, one would think that he would be interested in this opportunity... unless he's already up to his eyeballs in processing input from the playtesters. Just a thought...

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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