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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29795 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2009 :  16:15:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Responnding to Matt via PM; we really don't need another public debate on what was done to the Realms.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
908 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2009 :  16:18:05  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No problem :) Just trying to stay chipper :D
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe

USA
623 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2009 :  16:35:47  Show Profile  Visit Knight of the Gate's Homepage  Send Knight of the Gate a Yahoo! Message Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreed, and I (again) am NOT trying to reopen the discussion: I just wanted to address Matt's point vis-a-vis the attitudes of those unhappy with the S.P..

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2009 :  17:45:30  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Mr. Goodman's post that I linked to has been discussed in many arenas as well. Since he doesn't provide any of the 'data' that he's gathered, there's no way to prove/disprove what he says either.


Fair enough, but from my point of view he's given the clearest answer we're likely to get. I've done a number of web searches for sales of 4E and the data can't be found (by me).

I'm glad it seems to be doing well. Monte Cook made a valid point a while ago that WotC carries everyone else. Certainly we're living in interesting times, if nothing else.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3071 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2009 :  21:20:02  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn

quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Mr. Goodman's post that I linked to has been discussed in many arenas as well. Since he doesn't provide any of the 'data' that he's gathered, there's no way to prove/disprove what he says either.


Fair enough, but from my point of view he's given the clearest answer we're likely to get. I've done a number of web searches for sales of 4E and the data can't be found (by me).

I'm glad it seems to be doing well. Monte Cook made a valid point a while ago that WotC carries everyone else. Certainly we're living in interesting times, if nothing else.



As much as I respect and like Mr. Cook, I don't think that's true anymore. Ten, even five, years ago, if WotC and Hasbro shuttered the shop and left town, I think the gaming industry would have dried up and (probably) gone under. However, in the last five years, we're seeing the explosion of PDF publishing, allowing all kinds of companies and individuals to keep a healthy flow of material on a daily basis*. If WotC stopped producing right now, the impact would be felt, definitely, but the Catalyst Game Labs, White Wolfs and Paizos are not tied so directly to WotC's market anymore. In fact, if WotC did go out of business, it probably would lead to those other companies boosting their income and thereby boosting their employment, marketing and publishing to new heights.

I'm not saying I want WotC to go under (I wouldn't mind it not being owned by Hasbro anymore, but that's my humble opinion). But the market is very different than it was 20, 10 or 5 years ago. While at GenCon, my friends and I spoke with some of the 'top dogs' at Catalyst Game Labs regarding their new game Eclipse Phase. Since the game is not one of their major products (Shadowrun/Battletech), they decided to release the PDF of the book at a relatively low price and were actually pushing players to share the pdf with their friends to get them interested. As the designer told us, "If you really like it, you'll go out and buy it. If you don't, we haven't lost anything."

Granted, a lot of third party publishers put out books and such that enhance D&D and aren't really anything 'new', but the market is such now that these books could still be released and sold for years after a supposed shutdown of WotC. For instance, look at the number of products that are not being published for OD&D. And Paizo have not created a viable company and business model being built on 3E. Five years ago, if you wanted to play 2nd edition or older, you either had to use the old books and modules or rework the rules for your own use. Now, you can find rules, modules and settings for these editions everywhere on the web.

Like I said, I'm not wishing WotC to go out of business, but I don't think they are holding up the industry like they once did.




*Regarding new material, I check DriveThruRPG everyday and their are at least ten new products a day. Most are clip-art or such, but I still see at least two or three modules/rulesets a day available for purchase.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2009 :  23:57:30  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

While at GenCon, my friends and I spoke with some of the 'top dogs' at Catalyst Game Labs regarding their new game Eclipse Phase.
Ooooh! Thanks Ashe. I completely forgot about the release of EP.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe

545 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2009 :  09:09:23  Show Profile Send Mr_Miscellany a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to say I disagree with Matt.

Since Sage and Wooly stepped up, things seem a whole lot calmer and friendlier around Candlekeep. As a lurker who mostly opens and closes lots of scrolls, I for one no longer feel these halls are treating I or anyone else who actively enjoys the 4E Realms as intruders in someone else's library.

Seems like there will always be scribes who aren't keen on the 4E Realms and who perceive the Spellplague in the absolute worst possible way (see KotG's earlier post) but that can't be helped.

I daresay things will continue to get better so long as calm, thinking heads remain at the helm.

Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 04 Nov 2009 12:08:55
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3071 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2009 :  14:10:45  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany

I have to say I disagree with Matt.


I had to do a double-take, thinking you were disagreeing with me! (silly me, sharing a first name with Mr. James...)

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2009 :  14:40:38  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany

Since Sage and Wooly stepped up, things seem a whole lot calmer and friendlier around Candlekeep. As a lurker who mostly opens and closes lots of scrolls, I for one no longer feel these halls are treating I or anyone else who actively enjoys the 4E Realms as intruders in someone else's library.
We appreciate that Mr_Miscellany. Thank you.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Aerik DeVallo
Learned Scribe

USA
87 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2009 :  19:25:38  Show Profile Send Aerik DeVallo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was startled to read the first post by The Sage in this scroll. Candlekeep, in my opinion, is made whole by the presence of the people who have helped to bring ALL aspects of the Realms to life for us every one. Whether that be 1st Edition, through 4th Edition.

My point is this: I was aghast to think that my fellow scribes could be offensive to any one who has provided us with what we all so collectively love and enjoy so much. I have expressed my opinions of 4th Edition, but I hope that in my doing so that I never offended a single person. I didn't try to, and if I did, I'm not sure if I can be able to apologize enough.

I hope that the designers, creators, and authors are with us for many years to come - regardless of the opinions of anyone else. At least where I, and many others are concerned, they are greatly appreciated.
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe

Kazakhstan
588 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2010 :  08:33:58  Show Profile  Visit Sill Alias's Homepage Send Sill Alias a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aerik DeVallo

I was startled to read the first post by The Sage in this scroll. Candlekeep, in my opinion, is made whole by the presence of the people who have helped to bring ALL aspects of the Realms to life for us every one. Whether that be 1st Edition, through 4th Edition.

My point is this: I was aghast to think that my fellow scribes could be offensive to any one who has provided us with what we all so collectively love and enjoy so much. I have expressed my opinions of 4th Edition, but I hope that in my doing so that I never offended a single person. I didn't try to, and if I did, I'm not sure if I can be able to apologize enough.

I hope that the designers, creators, and authors are with us for many years to come - regardless of the opinions of anyone else. At least where I, and many others are concerned, they are greatly appreciated.





I agree with Aerik DeVallo. I was a little confused and disappointed about changes in 4th edition. But there is no helping it. I see it like horrible future, that cannot be changed, unless there is a way to timetravel back in time to stop these acts of gods.

By the way, it gives me idea about new adventure.

Someone who can't agree to that edition to the point of insult must be gone from the Forgotten Realms or learn wild magic and dwell in the past.

You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias

"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2874 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  05:23:51  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BUMP!

Scribes should read this.

It's time that the snide names for a certain version of the Realms comes to an end here. I understand that one of the names is a mods pet name for this version of the Realms, so it gets a pass. NO MORE!

Do we as a community support the Realms? DO WE OR DON'T WE??

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  07:17:07  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

BUMP!

Scribes should read this.

It's time that the snide names for a certain version of the Realms comes to an end here. I understand that one of the names is a mods pet name for this version of the Realms, so it gets a pass. NO MORE!

Do we as a community support the Realms? DO WE OR DON'T WE??



I agree, and the same goes towards the same type of comments towards certain groups of fans Brimstone.
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2874 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  07:32:59  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

BUMP!

Scribes should read this.

It's time that the snide names for a certain version of the Realms comes to an end here. I understand that one of the names is a mods pet name for this version of the Realms, so it gets a pass. NO MORE!

Do we as a community support the Realms? DO WE OR DON'T WE??



I agree, and the same goes towards the same type of comments towards certain groups of fans Brimstone.


Indeed. I agree.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29795 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  09:55:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

BUMP!

Scribes should read this.

It's time that the snide names for a certain version of the Realms comes to an end here. I understand that one of the names is a mods pet name for this version of the Realms, so it gets a pass. NO MORE!

Do we as a community support the Realms? DO WE OR DON'T WE??



This is part of why the edition wars exist. Some people see the pre-4E Realms and the 4E Realms as being entirely different. Other people refuse to respect that opinion.

Yes, I coined both terms. Years ago. And I've backed off from them, mainly because I was tired of defending my opinion to those who would never respect it.

I've been trying to show some respect to others. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  12:03:11  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well as a relative newcomer i dont know what candlekeep was like before but i for one am glad the mods are taking this initiative as the hostility directed towards the realms is a little surprising and disquieting in what is supposed to be a fan site.
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althen artren
Senior Scribe

USA
778 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  19:28:01  Show Profile Send althen artren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't agree. It is not as if using one of the
alternative names of the Spellplague is a direct
attack at another individual. Everyone has
the right to their opinion.

Now I do agree
that the way that opinions are shared are
not done in the spirit of the Realms

I just happen to think we should stop trying to
change other people's opinion on parts of the
Realms we don't like, or at least agree to
disagree and leave it at that.
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1381 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2012 :  06:12:01  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

As such, I'm declaring that outright insulting for no other reason than to express one's distaste over the 4e Realms will no longer be tolerated.

We each have our opinions on the 4e Realms. And we each feel the need to express those opinions. That's great. Because that's what Candlekeep is all about. But, at the same time, it should be noted that expressing opinions about an official designer's work and/or efforts with the 4e Realms should receive just as much respect and care as do the opinions made about the works of designers from previous editions of the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign.
[...]
This ends now!

For this point on, if a scribe wishes to express dislike over something about the 4e Realms, you must also make an effort to respect the opinions of others who may hold opinions counter to your own, and also respect the work of the individual/s and/or products you're referring to. Inane negative commentary that directly insults others -- whether they be fellow scribes or official FR designers -- and adds no new or constructive elements to a discussion, will receive heavy scrutiny each and every time, and discussed privately with the offending scribe.
That's cool, but not... constructive. I mean, "respect designers and authors" is a good, healthy idea, and i'm all for it. But that was a generic thunder in the sky, nut not a specific "do-s and don't-s instruction.
Using as examples non-Realmsian 3.5 - 4 ed. trends, does this mean the right way to express opinion while respecting opinions would be something like "Naming supplements after previous supplements at very least introduces needless confusion. In some cases, when authors differ, it looks like pretending the previous ones didn't exist and thus the new version is completely original... not that there's something wrong with that"? Or, "Personally, i think the brand of 'philosophy' marketed by the Book of Exalted Deeds is inane at best and unsettling at worst - notthattheressomethingwrongwiththat!" - or what else does it practically mean?
It most definitely can be read this way. And if it can, will. Because even if to you it's quite clear, it's not necessarily obvious to every reader - yes, even to this degree.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2012 :  06:46:26  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

That's cool, but not... constructive. I mean, "respect designers and authors" is a good, healthy idea, and i'm all for it. But that was a generic thunder in the sky, nut not a specific "do-s and don't-s instruction.
I'm not comfortable with being too specific about what scribes can and cannot do in discussion here at Candlekeep.

Some of our best scrolls have come from unexpected ideas and commentary that adds positive insights into a discussion. You can't be too specific when it comes to that kind of unexpected chatter. You can only shape and nurture, and, when necessary, curtail problematic discussion.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29795 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2012 :  11:05:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

As such, I'm declaring that outright insulting for no other reason than to express one's distaste over the 4e Realms will no longer be tolerated.

We each have our opinions on the 4e Realms. And we each feel the need to express those opinions. That's great. Because that's what Candlekeep is all about. But, at the same time, it should be noted that expressing opinions about an official designer's work and/or efforts with the 4e Realms should receive just as much respect and care as do the opinions made about the works of designers from previous editions of the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign.
[...]
This ends now!

For this point on, if a scribe wishes to express dislike over something about the 4e Realms, you must also make an effort to respect the opinions of others who may hold opinions counter to your own, and also respect the work of the individual/s and/or products you're referring to. Inane negative commentary that directly insults others -- whether they be fellow scribes or official FR designers -- and adds no new or constructive elements to a discussion, will receive heavy scrutiny each and every time, and discussed privately with the offending scribe.
That's cool, but not... constructive. I mean, "respect designers and authors" is a good, healthy idea, and i'm all for it. But that was a generic thunder in the sky, nut not a specific "do-s and don't-s instruction.
Using as examples non-Realmsian 3.5 - 4 ed. trends, does this mean the right way to express opinion while respecting opinions would be something like "Naming supplements after previous supplements at very least introduces needless confusion. In some cases, when authors differ, it looks like pretending the previous ones didn't exist and thus the new version is completely original... not that there's something wrong with that"? Or, "Personally, i think the brand of 'philosophy' marketed by the Book of Exalted Deeds is inane at best and unsettling at worst - notthattheressomethingwrongwiththat!" - or what else does it practically mean?
It most definitely can be read this way. And if it can, will. Because even if to you it's quite clear, it's not necessarily obvious to every reader - yes, even to this degree.



A large part of what prompted this scroll was the behavior of some scribes at the time this scroll was created. At that time, any time someone tried to discuss some aspect of lore in the 4E Realms, the thread was immediately flooded with anti-4E talk, most of it little better than "4E is t3h suck!"

That's the main focus here: making sure people are free to discuss what they want, and that everyone treats each other, and our designers, with at least a little bit of courtesy.

This isn't an attempt to censor speech or anything like that, as some will undoubtedly claim. We're just asking for some courtesy for everyone involved.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Feb 2012 11:06:16
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Light
Learned Scribe

Australia
231 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2012 :  14:11:43  Show Profile Send Light a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

BUMP!

Scribes should read this.

It's time that the snide names for a certain version of the Realms comes to an end here. I understand that one of the names is a mods pet name for this version of the Realms, so it gets a pass. NO MORE!

Do we as a community support the Realms? DO WE OR DON'T WE??



This is part of why the edition wars exist. Some people see the pre-4E Realms and the 4E Realms as being entirely different. Other people refuse to respect that opinion.

Yes, I coined both terms. Years ago. And I've backed off from them, mainly because I was tired of defending my opinion to those who would never respect it.

I've been trying to show some respect to others. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.



May I be so bold as to inquire into what these words are?

"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga)

Edited by - Light on 01 Feb 2012 14:12:10
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29795 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2012 :  18:38:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Light

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

BUMP!

Scribes should read this.

It's time that the snide names for a certain version of the Realms comes to an end here. I understand that one of the names is a mods pet name for this version of the Realms, so it gets a pass. NO MORE!

Do we as a community support the Realms? DO WE OR DON'T WE??



This is part of why the edition wars exist. Some people see the pre-4E Realms and the 4E Realms as being entirely different. Other people refuse to respect that opinion.

Yes, I coined both terms. Years ago. And I've backed off from them, mainly because I was tired of defending my opinion to those who would never respect it.

I've been trying to show some respect to others. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.



May I be so bold as to inquire into what these words are?



I long ago suggested splitting the 4E Realms into its own independent setting, and having another Forgotten Realms that did not involve the Spellplague. My suggestion was to call the 4E Realms "the Shattered Realms" -- a name that I still think is a good, marketable name that will get attention, and that was intended without any trace of derogatory intent.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Imp
Learned Scribe

231 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2012 :  20:00:37  Show Profile Send Imp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

BUMP!

Scribes should read this.

It's time that the snide names for a certain version of the Realms comes to an end here. I understand that one of the names is a mods pet name for this version of the Realms, so it gets a pass. NO MORE!

Do we as a community support the Realms? DO WE OR DON'T WE??


I disagree. I'm going to say whatever I like as long I'm not breaching this sites CoC. Who are you to force your opinion on me? To take away my right to free expression and freedom of speech?

The nerve of some people...

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Edited by - Imp on 01 Feb 2012 20:01:06
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arry
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
313 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2012 :  22:59:08  Show Profile Send arry a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No-one has the right to free speech on a private forum, which this is. We are all here as guests and should do well to remember this.
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Imp
Learned Scribe

231 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2012 :  23:00:39  Show Profile Send Imp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
I disagree. I'm going to say whatever I like as long I'm not breaching this sites CoC. Who are you to force your opinion on me? To take away my right to free expression and freedom of speech?

The nerve of some people...


Look closer.

And... this isn't a public forum? Then what are all the people doing here?

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Edited by - Imp on 01 Feb 2012 23:01:53
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