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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13395 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2009 :  17:06:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, we really have THREE "related matters" to deal with here at CK, because all are affiliated with FR - RPGing in general, D&D (including other official settings, because things in them can prove useful to FR DMs), and anything produced by Ed Greenwood (games, settings, novels, articles, etc...).

We already have seperate categories for the D&D and RPGing end of things, I believe, but we could probably use an 'Ed announcments' section. That stuff is usually covered in the "Ed thread", but maybe we could have a seperate section just for discussion of his non-FR endeavors?

Maybe all three of those forums can be put into a new section called Beyond the Realms?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2009 :  19:09:43  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


Maybe all three of those forums can be put into a new section called Beyond the Realms?



I like this idea, MT... Sage? Wooly? Alaundo? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Edit: For those who noticed it: Somehow I triple-posted... offending duplicates (or near-duplicates) have been deleted... hopefully.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 29 Aug 2009 19:11:05
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2009 :  01:23:25  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

I like this idea, MT... Sage? Wooly? Alaundo? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Aye. I'm not entirely convinced such a conglomeration of sub-forums is needed here.

I'll have to think on this.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe

199 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2009 :  19:17:23  Show Profile  Visit bladeinAmn's Homepage Send bladeinAmn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
In closing, this is as good a time as any for me to remind all scribes of Ed's message (paraphrased) from the OGB (as I've done several times before): The Realms are yours to do with as you wish. If you don't like something, change it. Heck, I'll be blowing up Evermeet in my Realms just because I don't want to mess with the geography of Maztica/Anchorome. I just wish that we could see Ed's version of regions that were changed prior to the original publication.



Oh I completely agree. My home campaign will be completely different from the next person's, and so on. Every DM will customize their own home campaign differently from the next.

But the issue that's been avoided is that the 4e Realms canon looks exactly like---from both a professional and cultural standpoint---an extremely divisive mechanism that was centered on the FR community as a whole. There are no wise words to counter this.

Thankfully, there is so much lore to go on in the 2e books, and even the 3e books, in order for people to have extremely thorough, fullfilling, and continuing campaigns, wherein even new and future campaigns can blend in seamlessly w/o being boxed in.

Edited by - bladeinAmn on 30 Aug 2009 19:20:19
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Neil Bishop
Learned Scribe

Singapore
100 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2009 :  16:27:33  Show Profile  Visit Neil Bishop's Homepage  Send Neil Bishop a Yahoo! Message Send Neil Bishop a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage Aye. I'm not entirely convinced such a conglomeration of sub-forums is needed here. I'll have to think on this.


There is already room for consolidation of the forums so the net effect could be zero. The forums are due for a reorganisation, IMO.

These are the forums at the moment:

Well Met
The Candlekeep Inn
------------------
General FR Chat
Running the Realms
Adventuring
Book Club
Novels
RPG Products
Computer Software
D&D Core Products
Chamber of Sages
Sages of Realmslore
RPG News & Releases

Obviously you don't want to touch:

Well Met )
The Candlekeep Inn )
Book Club
Novels
Chamber of Sages

But that leaves:

General FR Chat
Running the Realms
Adventuring
RPG Products
Computer Software
D&D Core Products
Sages of Realmslore
Realms Events
RPG News & Releases

Surely GENERAL FR CHAT, SAGES OF REALMSLORE and REALMS EVENTS are all the same thing: general discussion of FR lore. Why not consolidate these into a single forum? Call it Realmslore?

RPG PRODUCTS, D&D CORE PRODUCTS and RPG NEWS & RELEASES also have significant overlap so why not consolidate? And throw in COMPUTER SOFTWARE as the dearth of new releases, and the unlikelihood of further new releases, means that you can't really justify a whole forum for this. Call it RPG Products & News?

As for creating a specific post-Spellplague forum, why not put it to a vote? I realise that this website is not a democracy but why not at least test the opinions of posters here before Alaundo makes his final decision?

I realise I am only a lurker (albeit for about eight years) so my opinion does not count anywhere near as much as those who have put in the time and effort here, but I still think you need a proper reorganisation as part of a plan to improve the tone of the boards and encourage more activity here again.

On that note, I also think Alaundo et al need to look closely at the performance of moderators. I do understand that being a moderator on any sort of website if often a thankless task, but mods should not ever be the source of the majority of threadcrapping posts which, sad to say, was the case here for an awfully long time.

Frankly, there are no other places on the 'net for discussing FR. The WotC boards have improved of late since some of the serial pests were run off but here is the only place with real lore... and Ed himself posting! However, my own opinion is that this site has suffered some sort of sclerosis possibly as a result of its past success and a reorganisation might be just the thing to get things moving again.



Regards
NXB
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2009 :  17:01:31  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Neil Bishop

There is already room for consolidation of the forums so the net effect could be zero. The forums are due for a reorganisation, IMO.
The layout of the Candlekeep message boards will receive some restructuring as per the update to Candlekeep 2. How that restructuring will go, is still being determined.
quote:
Surely GENERAL FR CHAT, SAGES OF REALMSLORE and REALMS EVENTS are all the same thing: general discussion of FR lore. Why not consolidate these into a single forum? Call it Realmslore?
I disagree. General is for general FR chat. Stuff that really doesn't specifically refer to any particular element of the Realmslore. It just is. Sages, on the other hand, often deals specifically with focused questions about particular pieces of Realmslore. And Realms Events, well, that doesn't just handle in-game events, but out-of-game stuff too, like convention material for the setting.
quote:
RPG PRODUCTS, D&D CORE PRODUCTS and RPG NEWS & RELEASES also have significant overlap so why not consolidate? And throw in COMPUTER SOFTWARE as the dearth of new releases, and the unlikelihood of further new releases, means that you can't really justify a whole forum for this. Call it RPG Products & News?
Again, I have to disagree. There's a reason these shelves were separated in the first place -- because the overlap was becoming confusing for some scribes. RPG Products deals almost exclusively with non-D&D related gaming material, while D&D Core allows for discussions about the central elements of the D&D game. RPG News & Releases covers all the news for all RPG gaming elements and any specific info re: releases.
quote:
As for creating a specific post-Spellplague forum, why not put it to a vote? I realise that this website is not a democracy but why not at least test the opinions of posters here before Alaundo makes his final decision?
That's an option, I suppose, but, again, and I can't stress this point enough, we're not here to divide the FR community. Candlekeep is for ALL editions. Segregation could, conceivably, start to work against that mandate.
quote:
I realise I am only a lurker (albeit for about eight years) so my opinion does not count anywhere near as much as those who have put in the time and effort here, but I still think you need a proper reorganisation as part of a plan to improve the tone of the boards and encourage more activity here again.
Your opinions matter. Any and all feedback is always appreciated, as it helps us to determine how the overall community feels about the functioning of Candlekeep. If you've any further points to raise, I'd be curious to hear them.
quote:
On that note, I also think Alaundo et al need to look closely at the performance of moderators. I do understand that being a moderator on any sort of website if often a thankless task, but mods should not ever be the source of the majority of threadcrapping posts which, sad to say, was the case here for an awfully long time.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Do you have a problem with the way Wooly and myself conduct our Moderator duties here at Candlekeep? If so, please let us know. We each have a clear outline of what we can and cannot do, which was originally set down by Alaundo, and ALL Moderators had to agree to follow that guideline before accepting the role. So if you feel we've worked against that function, contact me privately and we can discuss it.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Neil Bishop
Learned Scribe

Singapore
100 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2009 :  06:00:37  Show Profile  Visit Neil Bishop's Homepage  Send Neil Bishop a Yahoo! Message Send Neil Bishop a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for you reply, The Sage.

Regards
NXB
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
712 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2009 :  17:06:53  Show Profile  Visit Razz's Homepage  Send Razz an AOL message Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with this message. I believe I've personally never insulted an FR author or designer on any messageboards (out loud anyway) and probably won't ever. But I do, and have, questioned their stance on even going through the heavy, topsy-turvy changes they did with D&D and FR as a whole (and will do to future settings) and why a better option wasn't taken.

A friend of mine went to a convention (can't remember which, might've been one of the GenCons) where he spoke with both Ed Greenwood and Salvatore, both which had a discussion with him and informed him of their hatred of 4th Edition and what has happened to the Realms. I've even heard from reliable sources of some employees working on the material that feel like they lost a bit of their soul when they work on this material. It is hurting them as much as it hurts us to read their work. I, for one, am saddened to see they just take it for what it is. The thing is, a lot of us don't want to just take it for what it is and really want things to go back the way they were, no matter how that's achieved. It doesn't excuse them from their degrading comments, of course, but I am sure we all can relate to the feeling of despair and complete loss of hope.

Personally, were I an employee at WotC and was forced to do something like this, based on principle I'd have put up a fight. I'd have rallied everyone I could. (and I did hear this sort of thing kind of happened there, not sure of the extent though). And if it looked like I wasn't going to win, I'd have walked out. And that's what capitalism these days forces us to do --- they force us to make a choice between principle and profit. I don't expect the entire staff at WotC (and I know for a fact MANY of them are not happy at all with 4E FR, and most aren't even happy with 4E itself), to just throw away their careers but I do wish they could find alternatives to what has happened, learn better for 5E, or find a way to sell off D&D and FR to someone else who's willing to buy it and let them bring everything back to normal, and let Hasbro keep their 4E end of things.

For now, we have to live with what has happened and just accept it. Maybe one day D&D and FR will go back to the way it was 1e through 3e. Things sometimes come full circle. And hopefully those same authors and designers will come right back to set things right again.
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
908 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2009 :  12:37:59  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be fair, we are not sure if no resistance was put up. We cannot damn them for what we do not know. Also, secondary hearsay from Ed and Bob should be repudiated until they, themselves, give such a statement rebuking the edition.

This site has become overwhelmingly destructive. Regardless of personal feelings of how the Realms are being shaped, and despite trying to remain positive about said changes, I'm having difficulty finding value in continued Realms discussions here. I've browsed these boards for years, since it was first pointed out to me by my brother, and always relished the Realmslore info within. For the most past it was devoid of politics and I found a lot of value. I would hate to see things continue down a divided path.

Edited by - Matt James on 02 Nov 2009 12:38:43
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2009 :  13:21:25  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heh. I thought the problems we'd been experiencing previously had quietened down actually, since I first posted this directive.

And Matt, with respect, I'm not quite sure I understand what you're referring to when you say "overwhelmingly destructive." Can you offer some recent examples?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 02 Nov 2009 13:22:08
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2009 :  14:45:47  Show Profile  Visit Darkmeer's Homepage Send Darkmeer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Heh. I thought the problems we'd been experiencing previously had quietened down actually, since I first posted this directive.

And Matt, with respect, I'm not quite sure I understand what you're referring to when you say "overwhelmingly destructive." Can you offer some recent examples?




Umm, not to insinuate or say that this is the case, but I believe Matt was describing Razz's comment above.

I believe that cooler heads will prevail here, but, to be honest, I believe that there is strong police-ing of the Anti-4e crowd being done by the mods.

"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME."
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
908 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2009 :  15:10:39  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was referring to the Realms, mostly. I would rather see it survive and be nurtured back to health by communities like this than the mentality "bah, I'd rather see her die than accept any of the 4e changes".

Yes, I'm cranky and getting over the flu ;)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2009 :  15:46:59  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, but to be fair, we've not had much of that since I put forth this directive. In fact, it's been nice to see some quality Realmslore chatter return to these halls.

Having said that, I've got a couple of ideas that I'd like to run past Alaundo before implementing them here. They're the direct result of studies I've made of both participation here and at the Wizards' boards. It's my hope that these ideas will encourage scribes to re-engage in the types of quality Realmslore discussions that Candlekeep has long been known for.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 02 Nov 2009 15:47:46
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skychrome
Senior Scribe

713 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2009 :  18:37:42  Show Profile  Visit skychrome's Homepage Send skychrome a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What a dificult and neverending topic, isnīt it?

I have been thinking about this a lot lately and what would be the best way to handle this forum in this context.
It appears logical to me that there are fewer people here in this Realms-forum who like the 4e realms than who are against them. Everyone says "4e", but it is actually "4e realms".

I have read some of the D&D 4e material and in terms of game mechanics I feel it is sound and very well done. Probably there will be rather few people who really reject the 4e rules system.

However the other part is the "4e realms" and considering that this is a forum about the realms, apparently things may look different. As much as I appreciate 4e Core, I cannot see any good and sane reason for what has been done to the realms.

On the other hand, I do not like the 4e bashing here neither and I think Matt James probably suggests the best strategie: nurture the realms back to health (which I personally interpret as: make them what they used to be in 3.5, but with 4 e rules). But how?

After all this forum will be legacy if not keeping up with the editions, but on the other hand I completely understand that it is not so easy for everyone here to start nurturing the realms back to health after what has been done in the last months.

I do not see many alternatives to having an anti-bashing / moderate-critcism-please policy and try to at least foster positive work here on 4e Core rules.

Does anyone by chance know, how 4e sales are going for WoTC? Especially in comparison to other edition changes?


"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625

Edited by - skychrome on 02 Nov 2009 18:39:47
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29795 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2009 :  22:40:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by skychrome

Does anyone by chance know, how 4e sales are going for WoTC? Especially in comparison to other edition changes?


It's really difficult to say. I don't think any official numbers have been released. Even if they have, it's still not an apples-to-apples comparison: back when 3E came out, people were just discovering the internet and online shopping. This time around, there was more potential for getting the word out, and more options for buying the books.

And the unofficial info isn't much better. Some people have tales of people at their game stores snatching up everything 4E, others have tales of it gathering dust or being returned. The store that used to be my FLGS said that 4E sales were strong, and that everyone seemed happy -- but the guy who owns the place also told me he was still charging pretty much cover price for 3.x stuff, and he couldn't keep it in stock.

There's also the very notable success of Pathfinder, which I personally regard as evidence that 4E hasn't taken hold as readily as WotC was hoping.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3071 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2009 :  22:49:29  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alas, there are no statistics for how 4E is selling, much less comparisons to other editions (although Joseph Goodman has some theories), so everything is mere speculation.

In regards to the 4th Edition rules, I know a good many people that have rejected the rules system regardless of it being in the Realms or not.

Finally, Realmslore has been and should always be edition/rules-free. You do not need to have rules mechanic to enjoy the lore of the world.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2009 :  00:02:10  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Finally, Realmslore has been and should always be edition/rules-free. You do not need to have rules mechanic to enjoy the lore of the world.
Exactly.

Ultimately, DMs are free to make use of whatever Realmslore they wish for their campaigns, regardless of the edition -- in most cases. And discussion of that Realmslore, here at Candlekeep, should be considered in much the same way.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2009 :  01:09:14  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by skychrome

What a dificult and neverending topic, isnīt it?

I have been thinking about this a lot lately and what would be the best way to handle this forum in this context.
It appears logical to me that there are fewer people here in this Realms-forum who like the 4e realms than who are against them. Everyone says "4e", but it is actually "4e realms".

I have read some of the D&D 4e material and in terms of game mechanics I feel it is sound and very well done. Probably there will be rather few people who really reject the 4e rules system.

However the other part is the "4e realms" and considering that this is a forum about the realms, apparently things may look different. As much as I appreciate 4e Core, I cannot see any good and sane reason for what has been done to the realms.

On the other hand, I do not like the 4e bashing here neither and I think Matt James probably suggests the best strategie: nurture the realms back to health (which I personally interpret as: make them what they used to be in 3.5, but with 4 e rules). But how?

<chop>



I agree entirely, Skychrome. My two current gaming projects are (a) development of the Realms outside of Faerun/Kara-Tur/Zakhara, starting with Anchorome, and (b) Version 3.0* of JD&D, which will incorporate the opposed-roll mechanic of 4E into a fusion of the 3.5 and Pathfinder ruleset. Yes, I have non-gaming projects as well, primarily RW-genealogy.

As to an answer to your question, I'm thinking like Ashe and Sage: keep it mechanics- and ruleset-independent. There are plenty of us out there who play in the Realms with 1E, 2E, 3.x, 4E, and completely different game systems (I believe GURPS has been mentioned in the past), not to mention the people like me who like to (re)build rulesets for fun.

* - for the curious, Version 1.0 was basically 2E with a critical hit system, paladins and rangers of other alignments, and elimination of level limits for nonhumans, and Version 2.0 was basically 3.x with some tweaks to advancement, feat acquisition, and ability score boosts.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 03 Nov 2009 01:13:15
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2009 :  10:10:25  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Razz

I've even heard from reliable sources of some employees working on the material that feel like they lost a bit of their soul when they work on this material.


It must be tough to do something you don't like to something you've enjoyed for so long. But, I'm sure, like lots of us, the game designers and authors fundamentally have to think about their livelihoods. Many of us also have to put up with things we don't like in our careers.

The flip side to this is that when producing something creative, it is better if it is produced with real passion and enthusiasm. It seems strange to me that someone in a position of authority would seek to push against those feelings.

However, judging by the comments of those people who say they like 4E, I get the impression that many of the designers were enthusiastic. It is a different system compared to 3rd End, and there's got to be a lot of fun involved in creating something new.

Speaking of something new - The post-Spellplague Realms..
quote:
Originally posted by Razz

The thing is, a lot of us don't want to just take it for what it is and really want things to go back the way they were, no matter how that's achieved. ...I am sure we all can relate to the feeling of despair and complete loss of hope.


Things won't go back to what they were. Even without the edition change there would always have been changes. The difference, of course, is that there's been a huge change and that's captured our attention.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2009 :  10:22:44  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Alas, there are no statistics for how 4E is selling, much less comparisons to other editions (although Joseph Goodman has some theories), so everything is mere speculation.


Thanks for the link. That's the first straight answer on 4E sales that I've seen.

Trying to find sales figures on line is impossible, but I think with Joseph Goodman's comment we'll get as close to a clear answer as we're going to get.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.
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skychrome
Senior Scribe

713 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2009 :  13:44:23  Show Profile  Visit skychrome's Homepage Send skychrome a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Alas, there are no statistics for how 4E is selling, much less comparisons to other editions (although Joseph Goodman has some theories), so everything is mere speculation.


Very interesting link!
Which basically confirms what I already suspected. 4e in general seems to go well and there is no way that complaints on the new realms as one part of 4e will change anything at WoTC, which makes it even more necesary to focus here on the aspects of 4e that are worth it to be discussed at the excellent level, which one can usually expect at this forum.

Makes me sad though too. There are some few parts of the new realms that I consider interesting, but in general it hurts me very much how things look now...

"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3071 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2009 :  13:47:30  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Damn, I shoulda put some sarcasm tags up on that link...

Mr. Goodman's post that I linked to has been discussed in many arenas as well. Since he doesn't provide any of the 'data' that he's gathered, there's no way to prove/disprove what he says either.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 03 Nov 2009 :  14:42:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See, this is part of what I was talking about.

quote:
Yes. In the 35 year history of D&D, we stand at a high point. D&D is selling more copies, reaching more customers, supporting more game stores, than it has during most of its history.


He's not paying attention to the facts that gaming is closer to mainstream than it has been at any previous point in its history, that it's more popular than it has been at any point in its history, and that it's more available and more advertised than it has been at any point in its history.

I'm not saying 4E is or is not doing well -- I'm saying you can't make any comparison between this edition and prior editions, because the gaming industry itself has grown and expanded during the interval between editions.

A more accurate measure would be to compare the overall number of D&D players to the number of D&D players playing a specific edition. However, that data can only be gathered by getting the info from the players themselves, which tends to skew results.

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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

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Posted - 03 Nov 2009 :  15:18:31  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bad things happen in real life that put a bad cramp on the world; i.e. terrorism, wars, economic issues, global warming, etc... You name it, crap comes up all the time that makes me go 'grrrrrr'. Why can't things like the Time of Troubles and Spellplague be the same for the Realms? It sucks, badly, but life goes on and new and interesting stories end up being told. The world keeps on rolling along. This is a great way to view the Toril without the scattered real-world edition issues. Sure, things were lovely before, but isn't that also what makes the Realms great? Heroes dealing with crap-sandwiches and pushing forth?

Just perspective on the story as it was affected by the edition change. If the Spellplague occured without an edition change, people probably would have viewed it differently. Mystra biting the dust would have made for a shocking new story to envelop ourselves in, right? Sure, people would have been upset, but no one ever said she is gone forever; even Ed! :)
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Knight of the Gate
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Posted - 03 Nov 2009 :  15:45:17  Show Profile  Visit Knight of the Gate's Homepage  Send Knight of the Gate a Yahoo! Message Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James

Bad things happen in real life that put a bad cramp on the world; i.e. terrorism, wars, economic issues, global warming, etc... You name it, crap comes up all the time that makes me go 'grrrrrr'. Why can't things like the Time of Troubles and Spellplague be the same for the Realms? It sucks, badly, but life goes on and new and interesting stories end up being told. The world keeps on rolling along. This is a great way to view the Toril without the scattered real-world edition issues. Sure, things were lovely before, but isn't that also what makes the Realms great? Heroes dealing with crap-sandwiches and pushing forth?

Just perspective on the story as it was affected by the edition change. If the Spellplague occured without an edition change, people probably would have viewed it differently. Mystra biting the dust would have made for a shocking new story to envelop ourselves in, right? Sure, people would have been upset, but no one ever said she is gone forever; even Ed! :)



I'm really not trying to re-open this discussion, since most of us know where we stand, and few (if any) of us are budging.
Matt, while you make a somewhat valid point, the problem (as I and many others here see it) isn't the Spellplague, per se; It's the time jump. Had the Spellplague hit the 4E Realms in 1375 and the setting been picked up in (say) 1380 DR, I would have moaned, but likely continued playing in the 'current' Realms. The issue is the (to me) totally egregious 100year time jump, which was done expressly to invalidate old lore. Since CK is a place for just that sort of lore, it's less than shocking that the scribes here are unthrilled at the prospect of hundreds of questions which will forever go unanswered, dozens of beloved characters dead without an eulogy, not to mention the paring-down of the various pantheons to a very (IMO) un-Realmsian few gods, and (of course) the invalidation of thousands of dollars worth of gaming products and hundreds of hours of Realms scholarship which are now reduced to the level of 'quaint history having nothing to do with the current setting'. We stuck thru the ToT, we stuck thru all the subsequent RSEs- we could have stuck thru the S.P.. That we did not is a testament (again, IMO) to the totality of the destruction.

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco
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