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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 11:05:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I found reference to an Owl-like creature known as the Hsiao, or Guardian Owl, from the Mystara setting, but no humanoid/avians of any kind just yet, I'll keep looking.
Nice, Fellfire! Have you all already seen this site?
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/_contents.php
Think it will help us with our research |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 21 Mar 2011 11:06:25 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 11:40:32
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Can't really contribute much to this thread - I have my own, very different thoughts about the Creator Races.
For instance, it seems to me rather apparent that the Aarakocra of the Star Mounts are from space (along with the Star Mounts themselves).
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Noctrals are the ones I am thinking of. I was also thinking of Space Owls from Spelljammer. However, I have concluded that they are simply intelligent owls.
I was thinking it would be cool if Space Owls were Aearee that had escaped to Wildspace through spelljamming. However, they are small (normal owl-sized) and share no humanoid characteristics. I don't think they work as Aearee.
There's also Hsiao, which are a fey bird-race, though very different then Aarakocra (like the Space Owls, they are true birds). Although originally OD&D, they were written-up for 2e in the Mystara MC (along with Nagpa). So perhaps some of the fey Hsiao wandered into Arcane Space and became Space Owls (I really wish they had thought of a more clever name). There are also the Dohwar of SJ (penguin-people) - still perhaps a bit too bird-like to connect to the Aeree/Aaarakocra. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Mar 2011 11:41:46 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 12:52:26
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| You know, I have Barastir, but I forget to check it sometimes so many of the sites I have been using have been shut down of late. Thanks for the reminder. 2e was great for monsters, there was such a preponderance of creatures that never made the 3.x conversion. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 21 Mar 2011 20:38:49 |
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Andrekan
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 19:00:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Can't really contribute much to this thread - I have my own, very different thoughts about the Creator Races.
For instance, it seems to me rather apparent that the Aarakocra of the Star Mounts are from space (along with the Star Mounts themselves).
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Noctrals are the ones I am thinking of. I was also thinking of Space Owls from Spelljammer. However, I have concluded that they are simply intelligent owls.
I was thinking it would be cool if Space Owls were Aearee that had escaped to Wildspace through spelljamming. However, they are small (normal owl-sized) and share no humanoid characteristics. I don't think they work as Aearee.
There's also Hsiao, which are a fey bird-race, though very different then Aarakocra (like the Space Owls, they are true birds). Although originally OD&D, they were written-up for 2e in the Mystara MC (along with Nagpa). So perhaps some of the fey Hsiao wandered into Arcane Space and became Space Owls (I really wish they had thought of a more clever name). There are also the Dohwar of SJ (penguin-people) - still perhaps a bit too bird-like to connect to the Aeree/Aaarakocra.
There was a passage dealing with the Staff of Shoon IIV(Staff of the Unicorn) Lurue, Mielikki, Silvaunus, and the Seldarine all seek it's destruction. A geas within the staff will cause those who try to use it without the strength to resist, to return the corrupt staff to the Head Waters of Unicorn Run where Lurue can redeem the staff. I think the sacred area for many of these afore mentioned Gods is at these head water which would be the Star Mounts. It would also lead one to think that there might be a portal there that leads to the House of Nature which maintained a portal to Arvandor which after Spellplague was generalized as the Fey Wild. The head water amid the Star Mounts was possibly guarded by an ancient dragon too large to fly. The aarakocras there may also have acted as guardians to the Portal or may have came from there long ago. |
"Those two talk only of drink, riches, women, brawling, and magic, so ye've a one in five chance..." Quote from "Elminster in Hell" |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 01:15:56
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I appreciate your keeping an eye out Fellfire. I don't have the sourcebook that includes the Hsiao, but I think their Mystaran origins probably rule them out as Aearee, and from what I can glean they seem to be true owls without humanoid features, which inclines me to think they are not related to the Aearee, but thanks for bringing them to my attention. Please let me know if you find any other candidates!
MalariaMoon, your adventure idea sounds like a lot of fun. Let me know how it progresses!
Thanks for the suggestions Markustay, FYI I did include the Dohwar among the Aearee descendants; they are written up on p.1 of this thread. While I think the Aearee and the Star Mounts are native, I do believe the Aearee had spelljamming capability (possibly purchased or bartered from the mysterious race called the Mercane/Arcane) and that they used spelljamming techniques to float some of their aeries, including the 4 that escaped to Coliar. In fact 4 of the most ancient aarakocra spelljammer docks/floating cities of Coliar are, at their core, the remnants of the 4 original aeries that brought the aarakocra to Coliar, having fled the rampaging dragons of Toril. It's my belief that the Aearee became sophisticated spelljammers during their brief 1000 year reign. It for this reason that they have spread out among the stars and established themselves on other worlds, despite getting wiped out in Faerūn some 30,000 years ago.
Andrekan, thanks for mentioning the lore about the Staff of the Unicorn. Do you happen to know what sourcebook that is in? I would definitely like to read up on that. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 02:02:52
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"It is uncertain how the hsiao came to be; given their alignment and priestly powers, rumors call them the mortal offspring of a powerful lawful Immortal. The hsiaos most important ecological role involves protecting the forest and its inhabitants."
Hsiao, pp. 62 MC Appendix: Mystara
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 22 Mar 2011 02:03:28 |
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Andrekan
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 03:35:56
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The Staff of Shoon is in Dragons of Faerun Pg.137
"Elaacrimalicros awakens from his lair among the highest Star Mounts and devoured most of the aarakocras." 3E Forgotten Realm Campaign Setting Pg.166
And there were two more sources about the Unicorn Run's head waters. I did some research on this about four years ago for a game I made. I almost think it was a pdf of Volo, Savage Frontier, or the North. I'm not sure and would have to check, seemed like there was an altar there as well. It seems like there was more about the aarakocras in the online source. I will double check and let you know. |
"Those two talk only of drink, riches, women, brawling, and magic, so ye've a one in five chance..." Quote from "Elminster in Hell" |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 03:54:11
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| I also seem to recall reading of the Staff of Shoon in the Lands of Intrigue box set. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Andrekan
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 03:54:52
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Savage Frontier Pg.25
Aarakocra
The aarakocra, the bird men of the Star Mounts, are the extremely secretive descendants of one of the ancient creator races. Were it not for an occasional sighting made of manlike forms flying above the High Forest, mankind would be totally unaware of their presence here. They dwell in six small villages on the upper slopes of the central mountains. At least one village is located at the headwaters of The Unicorn Run. |
"Those two talk only of drink, riches, women, brawling, and magic, so ye've a one in five chance..." Quote from "Elminster in Hell" |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 04:36:51
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Aarakocra must be like catnip to dragons. They may have some kind of scent that is irresistible or that intensifies hunger. They are bright and colorful, and they stand out against the background of the sky. It was their downfall back when, and it happened again when Elaacrimalicros awoke. Aarakocra have a flight speed of 90', while dragons start at a minimum of 100' but most can fly 150', 200' or greater. Dragons can easily chase down an aarakocra and chomp it out of the air. Tasty, slow, and difficult to hide; that's three strikes against them in the game of bird and dragon.
Although, Monsters of Faerūn mentions that there were survivors of the Star Mounts massacre, and aarakocra are increasingly seen in Cormyr and across the North. It also says the survivors are plotting their revenge on the green wyrm. Wonder if they ever got it? |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 14:04:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Andrekan
Savage Frontier Pg.25
Were it not for an occasional sighting made of manlike forms flying above the High Forest, mankind would be totally unaware of their presence here.
Hey, the sightings could also be related to lost avariel tribe's sightings... Or to Uthgardt Sky Pony barbarians using their beast totem powers...  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 22 Mar 2011 14:05:22 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 17:04:40
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| Speaking of it: could the existence of partially bird creatures (griffins, sphinxes, pegasi, or even avariel) be somehow linked to Aearee magical experimentation? Is there any lore about the creation of Giant Eagles? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 17:19:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Speaking of it: could the existence of partially bird creatures (griffins, sphinxes, pegasi, or even avariel) be somehow linked to Aearee magical experimentation? Is there any lore about the creation of Giant Eagles?
Since green elves and avariel predate the presence of moon and sun elves on Toril, I could see the avariel being the product of Aearee experimentation on green elves. Avariel also almost went extinct due to the presence/emergence of dragons. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2011 : 04:10:08
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I was wondering that myself. The Aearee were close to the fey races. It strikes me that there could be some connection between the Avariel and the Aearee.
And this might be a stretch, but even their name could be a clue: could the name "Avariel" be a corruption of Elf-Aearee?
I could see the Avariel gaining wings from perhaps some kind of cross-breeding with the Aearee, or magical grafting, or epic magic. Or maybe some kind of solidarity/friendship with the Aearee. Perhaps they gained wings through a high magic ritual, racially transforming themselves in or order to protect the High Forest from Aearee-Quor attack during the war between Aeng-Shara and the Aearee-Syran capital of Phwiukree in the Star Mounts.
The timeline is almost right. If the Avariel were transformed green elves that came over directly from Faerie to help out with the war, then they might have stayed on after. They could have been transformed by Aearee magic, or by the Fey gods, or by the LeShay, or by High Magic of their own weaving. Grand History of the Realms says that green elves were the first elves to settle Faerūn in about -27000 DR. So maybe the Avariel came over around -30,100 DR to fight in the war for the High Forest, and this just wasn't previously known. Or alternatively, they came over from Faerie briefly to help out in the war, and then returned to the Feywild. Then later they came back to Faerūn around -27000 DR or after and settled more permanently.
Here is another possibility. If it is true that Krocaa is the son of Remnis and Akadi. And if it is true also that Aerdrie Faenya is an aspect of Akadi. Then Krocaa may be the son of Aerdrie Faenya. And Syranita may be Aerdrie's granddaughter. It may partially explain why the fey and the Aearee were so close. May also explain why Syranita was close with Aerdrie and was absorbed into her when she passed away. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2011 : 04:28:41
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| Now that is a fascinating game of connect the dots! The Avariel creation has only been hinted at in the vaguest of sense of an explanation. I'd love to hear your further musings. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 26 Mar 2011 04:40:27 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2011 : 04:34:39
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I might be mistaken, but I think Savage Coast material states that avariels originated somewhere in that world (Mystara) and subsequently migrated to other worlds (an explanation of sorts for their rarity and low population). I recall the passage was written somewhat in the context of legend, however, so it's not necessarily true, accurate, nor complete.
I'm personally inclined to believe they're some ancient elven-celestial offshoot. Though even if that were true it still wouldn't invalidate your lore, GR. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2011 : 16:37:55
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Thanks for mentioning the Savage Coast lore. Found it in Orc's Head Peninsula Sourcebook pp.48-52.
There's some interesting lore there! I don't think it precludes the possible origins mentioned above. In Savage Coast myth (and it is only handed down as a myth) an elf named Aeryl traveled to Faerie where she was given wings. She is the ancestor of all Savage Coast Avariel.
Perhaps she traveled to Faerie and became involved in the recruitment of fey to defend the High Forest? Perhaps she was just one of many elves who underwent the ritual to grow wings and fight in the aerial wars over Faerūn. She could easily have gone back to her homeland after.
I think it very interesting that even her name Aeryl could be linguistically related to the Aearee. Also the Savage Coast avariel call themselves Ee'aar, which seems also like it could be related to the name Aearee.
Here's one other cool thing. The Savage Coast Ee'aar use glassteel weapons. Glassteel was used by the Aearee who learned it from the Batrachi who developed the technology when they lived in the oceans, who perfected the art of making building blocks and ceramics from the most plentiful substance on the ocean floor: sand.
The weather control towers of Phwiukree atop the Star Mounts were made from this material. The fragments of those towers still lie broken and scattered around the tops of the Star Mounts to this day. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 11:03:10
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| @ Gray - wow, cool idea, keep em coming! I love the avariel! |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 12:49:05
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Really cool!
What about Giant Eagles? Is there any mention about their origins? I think Monster Mythology implies that they are Remnis' offspring. If so, he fathered them without a mate (a common theme in mythology), or can you think of an union with other spirit or creature? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 14:14:41
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| My own take is that giant eagles evolved naturally, that they are simply larger strains of normal eagles. I don't think that Remnis created them (except perhaps as a myth) but rather that Remnis is an expression of the collective psyche or spirit of all eagles (giant and small alike). |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 14:37:38
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I've asked about Giant Eagles because they are intelligent, and while in 3.5e they speak (Common and Auran), in the 2e they have a limited form of telepathy. Not thet they could be an evolved form of eagle, but this intelligence makes me look for some divine spark in their origins. That's why I thought maybe they could be the offspring of Remnis alone, or the children of the Greal Lord of Eagles with a - Planescape's - Animal Lord, or another similar spirit.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 15:51:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The Aearee were close to the fey races. It strikes me that there could be some connection between the Avariel and the Aearee.
(...)
I could see the Avariel gaining wings from perhaps some kind of cross-breeding with the Aearee, or magical grafting, or epic magic. Or maybe some kind of solidarity/friendship with the Aearee. Perhaps they gained wings through a high magic ritual, racially transforming themselves in or order to protect the High Forest from Aearee-Quor attack during the war between Aeng-Shara and the Aearee-Syran capital of Phwiukree in the Star Mounts.
(...)
Here is another possibility. If it is true that Krocaa is the son of Remnis and Akadi. And if it is true also that Aerdrie Faenya is an aspect of Akadi. Then Krocaa may be the son of Aerdrie Faenya.
It is interesting that the Giant Eagles are found as allies of elves, and that Remnis, in Monster Mythology, is connected and frequently act as a mount to "sky gods and the Seldarine".
Besides, according to The Complete Elves:
"No one knows whether the avariel are a natural offshoot of the elven line or the result of powerful magicks. There are those who claim that the avariel are the original elves and that the other elves have fallen from this high state. Most, however, maintain that the avariel are the result of magic that combined elves with their beloved giant eagles."
Considering there were high magic rituals that transformed normal elves into sea elves, and that at least one ritual can turn one elf from one subrace into another, a ritual creating the winged elves, either from scratch or fusing them with the eagles, would be entirely plausible.
Now, if you see the eagles as somehow connected to the Aearee, or at least as their servants (the Aearee could have magically increased their intelligence), maybe they could have developed the avariel in conjuction with the leShay (making a "servant's mix", if you think of elves as servants of the Fey creator race). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 28 Mar 2011 16:00:42 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 21:54:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
My own take is that giant eagles evolved naturally, that they are simply larger strains of normal eagles.
Well, something just occurred me. How could evolution work in a world filled with creator deities, magical experiments with races, and so on...? Another question: have humans evolved phisically since the times of the creator races? We know humans lived in caves back then. Besides, who or what created them along with the other Iqua-Tel'Quessir?
And finally, I know of some places in the Realms where you can find dinosaurs, but what about pleistocene animals, or those animals that existed in times prior to the "terrible lizards" or "thunderers", as they are called in Toril? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 06 Apr 2011 21:56:50 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 07:27:33
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Good question. I don't actually know that evolution does work in the Realms. I should have said that my suspicion is that their origin is the same as other types of eagles. But on this point I claim no special knowledge.
Is Toril only 70,000 years old? Sages tend to think it is. But it could be millions or billions of years old. If so then evolution may have occurred on Toril just as it has in scientifically based spheres. Although, I myself am quite comfortable with the (roughly) 70,000 year old creation date and magical origins for the species of Toril.
So lets assume, for the sake of argument, that the date that Ed Greenwood suggested that Toril's most learned sages believe to be the right date (approx 70,000 years ago) is accurate. What then are some plausible origins for the many species we see inhabiting the world?
1) They could have been created by Chauntea or the World Serpent (who may possibly be aspects of each other). There are myths that say that Chauntea created all life in Realmspace. Did she create life? Or did she come into existence as a consequence of life evolving--or spontaneously generating, whatever the mechanism. What came first, the chicken or the egg?
2) They could have been created by Ao. Although, I don't know that the lore supports this. The lore only supports that he created the crystal sphere of Realmspace, which was filled with a shapeless gray mist (I am assuming an Ethereal Plane of pure potential) from which the heavenly bodies distilled (Or were created by Selūne and Shar) at a later date. Ao was possibly only responsible for the set up of initial conditions but not the actual creation of things. That is, he racked up the billiards, but didn't make the break shot.
3) Some other god (or gods) may be responsible.
4) Primordials cannot be ruled out either.
5) Speaking of the Ethereal, it was a plane of pure potential. It might have been responsible for some kind of spontaneous generation of life.
6) There could have been some kind of magical evolution. The physics of Toril work differently from Earth. We know that gunpowder doesn't work when brought to the Realms, but smoke powder can be crafted from a different alchemical formula. A type of evolution may exist in the Realms, but it may operate along Lamarckian rules, or some kind of spontaneous generation. There may be magical forces at work of which we are unaware. Evolution, or mutation, may occur at a faster rate or triggered by different principles, like faerzress perhaps. Some sages believe that dragons existed as a much smaller, less fearsome proto-dragon species that suddenly evolved into the dragons we know today around the time of Tearfall. Others believe dragon eggs rained from the sky during Tearfall. But if proto-dragons suddenly evolved into true dragons, that might be an example of magical evolution.
7) Species may have wandered in from other worlds through planar rifts. We know that Earth and other worlds are tied to Toril by means of gates, portals, planar rifts, the Shadow Plane, etc. There are numerous ways that life of every stripe and kind could have migrated to Toril, the way that remote dessert islands, newly formed by volcanism, suddenly become populated by seeds and spores that travel on the wind, birds fly in bringing insects and parasites, critters arrive on driftwood and mats of seaweed. There are numerous documented species that arrived from other worlds, no reason to believe that other species couldn't similarly arrive prior to recorded history. Life on Toril may be similar to Earth precisely because they crossed over from Earth.
8) The world could have been seeded by the Mercane/Arcane, or other ancient races by spelljamming, who brought in species from other worlds to terraform Toril, or settle it, or improve the ecology for whatever reason, or simply as an experiment. Maybe it was a failed colony, like Roanoke. The colonists died out but all the plant species and animals and slave races they brought in thrived. Don't forget there was an ice age. The ice age could have killed off the colonists in a mass extinction event. There could have been some cosmic benefactor race, like the Preservers/Progenitors in Star Trek that seeded humanoid life on planets across the galaxy.
9) All of the above. Nothing precludes more than one of the above explanations from being true. A little from column A, a little from column B... Some combination of the above may be responsible for life on Toril.
Ultimately, it is a mystery as to how Toril came to be filled with life. And it is probably exactly the kind of mystery that will be left open without resolution by Ed and the other designers.
As for humans? We are told they were pretty primitive cavemen back in the Days of Thunder. Does that mean like Neanderthals or some other type of early hominid? Or simply homo sapiens living in a primitive state? That I don't know. It could be that humans themselves underwent some kind of evolution (magical or otherwise) or it could be they just developed civilization and became more sophisticated, possibly learning from other races who they interacted with or even lived among as slaves or peers.
Now who created humans? Well, it's possible that if the World Serpent created the Sarrukh, and Krocaa created the Aearee, and the Batrachi were transformed into landwalking amphibians from an aquatic octopoid people by Ramenos. Not sure who created the aquatic progenitors. And I have no clue as to the LeShay. But I do note that humans are missing a racial patron. Was there a human version of Corellon, Moradin, Gruumsh, Yondalla, Garl, etc?
My own theory is that the human racial patron deity was so successful that he earned a divine rank higher than 20 and graduated to overgod status. When gods graduate (apotheosize? meta-apotheosize? hyperapotheosize?) and become overgods, it is presumed that they have to perform an epic act of some kind. Like a PHD thesis. Some tend to create crystal spheres as their project. Is it possible that Ao was the human racial patron deity? And having succeeded in meeting the prerequisites to acquire overdivine status, he created Realmspace as his eaglescout project to complete the transformation? I think that Ao is a good candidate for the original human racial patron/creator god. I'm not saying that he definitely is, but he could be. And I think he just might. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 08:27:04
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'Dire' animals take the place of Pliocene mammals in FR.
There are some examples (the Branta in SM, for instance) of more 'normal' prehistoric animals as well. Large, flightless birds, Saber-toothed cats (the steppe tiger), etc... they're there if you look hard enough.
Evolution does take place - the two are not mutually exclusive. Many of the stranger beasts in D&D (Peryton, Owlbear) were most-likely due to magical experiments, and yet those creatures managed to adapt and become viable races - that means some evolution had to have taken place. Adaption is part of the evolutionary process.
And humans were a bit hairier and smellier 25K years ago.
Not much... but a little.
Giant Eagles - I concur. I just have to wonder if the 'eagle god' (beast totem) came first, or did the sentient eagles? If the god developed from the species-awareness (overmind) of the eagle animal genus, then it could be that the eagle god caused some to become 'awakened' (as per the spell).
FR Elves have always used Glasteel - they just call it something else (and the name escapes me - Dagnirion has it written down somewhere...)
Your interpretation makes the Avariel less elf-like and more raptoran, which I actually prefer (my avariel ARE raptorans - the fluff works perfectly for winged elves). The 'wings growing out of the back' thing is too angelic (or even fey) for my taste, and not very natural at all.
On the other hand, their arms could morph as part of 'the magic' (which isn't much of a stretch, given the fey bloodlines and the existence of Lythari). In fact, you could even use the raptoran as a model for a hybrid form (if we made the avariel shape-shifters).
Just tossing ideas out there, like usual. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Apr 2011 20:57:48 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 08:42:39
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| Hmmmm... yet another possible mechanism: a feedback process. The god springs forth from the collective unconscious/psyche/oversoul of the race. The race in turn is strengthened and flourishes because they have a god protecting and guiding them. This in turn augments their deity and so on. Sort of a divine bootstrapping. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 18:20:44
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Well, if genetic laws happen the same way in the Realms, and magic doesn't interfere very much, natural selection would exist. Simply because there are ambiental pressures and the cycle of life and death works. I just don't know if there is enough time for evolution to occurr, considering this 70,000 years of Realms.
I've totally forgotten about the dire animals. Actually, I never considered them very much, because they look to me as a kind of "misinterpretation of a rule". Some game designer once said "if there is a dire wolf, why not having a dire bear, a dire badger, or even a dire canary?"
However, "dire wolf" is the actual name a pleistocenic variety of wolf, Canis dirus. That's it, a different species, a little bigger and with a larger head, in proportion. Just as the jaguar in comparison to a leopard (paleonthologists believe jaguars look similar to leopard's ancestors, by the way), and not an overly large variation with those awful bony ridges that came from who knows where, designed only for players having a meaner version of the animal to beat.
Not every pleistocene relative of nowadays animals is larger, but many were, just because animals that live in cold environment tend to be larger (to avoid loss of heat). But there is no need of dire bears when you have already the cave bear, and no reason for dire elephants when there are mammooths and mastodons around.
However, my question was: there is a place specially inhabited by pleistocene animals? Or they simply are still there, and never became extinct at first place? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 07 Apr 2011 18:25:04 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 21:23:20
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According to Ed (from a question I asked long-ago), there was no 'great ice-Age' in the Realms, but rather a series of minor ones (like our RW 'little ice-ages'). There have been incidents - like tearfalls and sunderings - which should have caused something of that magnitude, but 'the gods' mitigated the outcomes, causing them to be less severe, and things were able to survive (this last part is suppositon on my part, based on Ed's answers).
So the animals had time to move to better climates during such events, and survive, unlike our own prehistoric animals, but they have 'evolved' into forms better-suited for survival in such a hostile and heavily-contested environment as a fantasy world (hence, the 'bony ridges' on dire animals).
There was also a 'dire Owlbear' - it is called a giant owlbear, and is much more feral (if you can believe) and dangerous then its 'normal' counterpart. It is mentioned in Cormyr (the novel), but it also later says they are 'no more'. When Brian James was asked about the Redwoods in northern cormyr (4e), which was my own homebrew originally, I had answered that several 'lost species' had appeared within the new forest, including the small 'forest rothe' (which still exist in the Underealms as deep rothe) and the Giant Owlbear, amongst others.
And evolution is something that should be included in some nature deity's portfolio, if it isn't already. Evolution need not be based entirely on science (and I personally don't feel it is), but rather taps into the very essence of life itself - that 'yearning' all things have to survive. It goes beyond mere thought - it is part of the very fabric of our cellular structure, which makes changes to us (and everything else) as conditions change. If 'life' isn't divinely inspired, then I don't know what is.
And on (Ed's) FR world, life = magic, so magic itself is one-and-the-same as the process which allows creatures to adapt and change. They go hand-in-hand, and magic is part of that process.
Sorry for the minor derailment Gray.
As for 'the gods' (at least the proto-ones, not the ascended deities), I think they form out of the communal awareness (overmind) of species-identity - something animals have but humans have lost (but other races may still have some inkling of). These very primitive 'gods' (more like beast-totems) start-out like the 'reptilian brain' in psychology, but evolve over-time just as the race does. So yeah, the 'bootstrapping' thing you mentioned is cause-and-effect, with each feeding the other. As the species grows and evolves, so does it's 'god', and at some point it achieves self-awareness, and that's when it would begin to 'tinker'.
The very first mortal gods may have been created this way, but as time went on, and hero-worship kicked-in, the 'racial overmind' would have lent part of it's energy to these demi-powers, who would have grown on their own over time (into deities, which could have out-stripped the racial awareness that gave birth to them). As species grew into civilized, sentient races, the need for these 'primal spirits' lessened, and this is where we get many of our 'lost gods'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 04:15:28
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Not sure in what context Ed answered you, but Grand History of the Realms p.5 says "earliest days of recorded history begin at the end of a great Ice Age, some 37,000 years ago, when the last glaciations largely ended and the great ocean receded to reveal dry land." And in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide p.42 it talks about how Dendar ate the sun. "Global temperatures plummeted, and soon, most life on the planet became extinct." It goes on to tell how the Days of Thunder began when all the ice melted: "Eons passed before sunlight warmed the world once more. Oceans thawed, then receded, allowing dry land to rise above the frigid water." Maybe the Shadow Epoch was actually a lot of little ice ages, but the indications are that it was an extinction level event that blanketed the world in ice for eons. While the term eon just means an indefinitely long period of time, it usually implies a timescale of geological significance. Eons in this context could mean a few thousand years or a few million or even billion years.
The lore does imply that some life survived. Presumably the Sarrukh, as the Shadow Epoch is detailed in Sarrukh myths, and the World Serpent is named as one of the gods who fought the Primordials during that period. We might also surmise that the aquatic creator race survived, deep in the oceans beneath the ice where the water was still liquid.
Not sure if humans survived the ice, or came about after it ended. But humans were definitely around during the Days of Thunder. Grand History says "Though humans did exist during this time, they were primitive and apelike, using only simple tools and living in caves." We might take the "apelike" reference to imply that humans were a lower form of hominid during the Days of Thunder.
There is enough circumstantial evidence to indicate that whatever passes for the laws of physics in the Forgotten Realms may allow for some kind of punctuated evolution where species advance dramatically in a short amount of time. Evolution may exist in the Realms but progress way more rapidly, or have much shorter periods of stasis between changes in species.
This could be the effect of different mechanisms for mutation. I don't think we can be sure that life in the Realms is based on DNA. The alchemical bonds which make up the building blocks of life may work on entirely different principles. One might refer to the theories of Pythagoras and Aristotle regarding preformationism for inspiration regarding some alternate methods on how such a thing might work in the Realms.
I think I mentioned faerzress as a possible mutagenic factor, and there may be other, magical forces at work. Not to mention the very Weave itself. The natural flows of raw magic around Toril may cause mutation in species. And given that it's magic, it may alter species in a more meaningful or positive/beneficial way than mutation on Earth, which is usually more negative than beneficial to the afflicted offspring. Just a couple of simple adjustments to the laws of nature might explain the more rapid evolution of species on Toril. Firstly that mutations occur more often, and secondly that the net effect of mutation tends to be more positive under Realms physics than in Earth's scientific universe.
As for your view of the gods evolving as well, I share it. There is even some evidence of it. We know that Earth Mother is a more primitive aspect of Chauntea, wild and untamed. No doubt before that she was apelike back in the Days of Thunder (at least the human conception of her anyway) and going back through time she may have been more reptilian when the Sarrukh were around during the Shadow Epoch. Or maybe octopoid as first conceived by the aquatic creator race in the depths of the ocean. Back before that, she might have been a jelly fish, or krill or algae. I am very fond of the notion that divine "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny."
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The Aearee: Secrets of the Avian Creator Race
