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Janav
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Posted - 02 Jun 2009 :  13:53:59  Show Profile  Visit Janav's Homepage Send Janav a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Greetings,

I'm at a bit of a loss here as to how to proceed or answer a question. It's been more then a few years since i was DM'ing properly - perhaps i'm simply not remembering correctly or my re-reading of the sourcebooks has been somewhat lax. Anyway, here's the conundrum (or rather, question: a PC in the campaign i'm currently running posed the question of how one would go about in enchanting (or crafting, if you will) an item (ring, necklace, rod) with the "anti-magic field" effect (Sor/Wiz 6) - activatable/deactivatable as a standard/free action.

My first answer was that such an item would be a minor/major artifact and not creatable with the simple "Create Wondrous item" feat. Now it's not the power/impact of the potential item i want to discuss, but the concept itself.

According to the description, the antimagic field supresses the magical effects of items (such as magic arms/armor) and prevents spells/spell-like effects from working. As such, shouldn't the field prevent the potential, enchanted rod/item from working/functioning at all since it's a magical effect imbued into an item, much like the enhancement of a weapon?

Well, much like i said - a stupid question perhaps, but i'd like a somewhat more informed answer then my own speculations :p.

Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 02 Jun 2009 :  14:54:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, until the spell is active, it's not going to have any effect on anything.

If the spell is being activated from a ring or something, then the spell is going to take a charge or whatnot before its working. And then it will be up and running. So the charge is expended, the ring used, and then the spell takes effect -- at that time, then no more magic is going to happen. The spell isn't running before then, so it can't stop the item from functioning.

The only way the antimagic field would prevent itself from running was if it took effect retroactively -- before the ring was even used.

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Janav
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Posted - 02 Jun 2009 :  15:08:39  Show Profile  Visit Janav's Homepage Send Janav a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Well, until the spell is active, it's not going to have any effect on anything.

If the spell is being activated from a ring or something, then the spell is going to take a charge or whatnot before its working. And then it will be up and running. So the charge is expended, the ring used, and then the spell takes effect -- at that time, then no more magic is going to happen. The spell isn't running before then, so it can't stop the item from functioning.

The only way the antimagic field would prevent itself from running was if it took effect retroactively -- before the ring was even used.



Nod Makes tons of sense, i suppose. I've always found the concept of the spell a bit problematic,i feel it's far too powerful - even given the limited area of effect that it has - to be a Sor/Wiz 6.

Anyway, suppose i was thinking too much. I blame the damn morning caffeine buzz :p.

Thanks for the swift response!
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Erik Scott de Bie
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Posted - 02 Jun 2009 :  16:04:17  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just popping in because I like the concept!

It is a bit funny to think of a spell that prevents spells from functioning--like a magical black hole, huh? I mean, what maintains it? Magic works in mysterious ways.

And while it's death for a wizard, it's also not usually complimentary to the person who casts it, as 11 wizard levels generally don't do good things for your fighting prowess. (Though I have had an eldritch knight in one of my games who would occasionally, at need, pop himself into an antimagic field and go toe-to-toe with enemy spellcasters.)

The simplest way to build your item *would be* a wand of antimagic field, but wands only take up to 4th level spells (to keep them from being too powerful, I suppose). Barring that, a ring or amulet is a good bet and seems appropriate. It's going to be spendy (11th level caster, 6th level spell, command word activation, at-will = 118,800 gp to build, 119 days work time), which can be mitigated to some extent if you're going to limit how many times per day you can use it.

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Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 02 Jun 2009 :  16:34:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Just popping in because I like the concept!

It is a bit funny to think of a spell that prevents spells from functioning--like a magical black hole, huh? I mean, what maintains it? Magic works in mysterious ways.

And while it's death for a wizard, it's also not usually complimentary to the person who casts it, as 11 wizard levels generally don't do good things for your fighting prowess. (Though I have had an eldritch knight in one of my games who would occasionally, at need, pop himself into an antimagic field and go toe-to-toe with enemy spellcasters.)

The simplest way to build your item *would be* a wand of antimagic field, but wands only take up to 4th level spells (to keep them from being too powerful, I suppose). Barring that, a ring or amulet is a good bet and seems appropriate. It's going to be spendy (11th level caster, 6th level spell, command word activation, at-will = 118,800 gp to build, 119 days work time), which can be mitigated to some extent if you're going to limit how many times per day you can use it.

Cheers



I'm not real fond of that limitation on wands... 3E and 4E took some of my personal faves of magic wands and either depowered them (wand of fire, wand of lightning) or removed them altogether (the ever-fun wand of misplaced objects).

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Erik Scott de Bie
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Posted - 02 Jun 2009 :  17:39:10  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not to mention making it mechanically dodgy to rebuild my house-ruled wand of unwelcome touching.

Where in 1e and 2e, they were a unique magic item all to themselves, wands served a different mechanical purpose in 3e (i.e., giving you charges to burn through instead of spellslots for casting spells you used frequently--basically, extra ammo), and yet *another* mechanical purpose in 4e (i.e., magical weapons for spellcasters, some with a cool secondary or tertiary power).

I kinda like 'em all, though. Wands have always been a fun item, IMO.

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Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 02 Jun 2009 17:40:08
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 02 Jun 2009 :  18:21:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Not to mention making it mechanically dodgy to rebuild my house-ruled wand of unwelcome touching.

Where in 1e and 2e, they were a unique magic item all to themselves, wands served a different mechanical purpose in 3e (i.e., giving you charges to burn through instead of spellslots for casting spells you used frequently--basically, extra ammo), and yet *another* mechanical purpose in 4e (i.e., magical weapons for spellcasters, some with a cool secondary or tertiary power).

I kinda like 'em all, though. Wands have always been a fun item, IMO.

Cheers



I didn't mind the mechanical purpose in 3E, I just think it was too limiting -- it made them more into what were essentially batteries (in that a caster could use them to cast the same spell, over and over, rather than use it once himself) and took away part of the wonder of it all. I don't see how allowing closely related powers in a wand would be a problem, or in allowing it to be recharged.

I don't like the 4E version, though.

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Erik Scott de Bie
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Posted - 02 Jun 2009 :  20:01:49  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't like the 4E version, though.

The version I like best is actually the version I came up with while writing Downshadow, *after* WotC gave me a some early notes about 4e wands, but *before* I saw the actual mechanics. You'd have loved wands done *my* way.

But I digress.

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Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

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Knight of the Gate
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Posted - 02 Jun 2009 :  20:08:52  Show Profile  Visit Knight of the Gate's Homepage  Send Knight of the Gate a Yahoo! Message Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For the purposes of 3e, Scepters take over the functions of specific wands like the Wands of Fire and Frost. Also, on topic, your player could make a Scepter of Antimagic Shell, since Scepters can hold up to 7th level spells.

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco
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George Krashos
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Posted - 03 Jun 2009 :  00:04:41  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've had a few discussions with Ed regarding anti-magic (stemming mainly from some of his prose in "Elminster in Myth Drannor") and he made the cogent point to me that 'anti-magic' is still ... well ... magic. Otherwise it would collapse itself immediately upon being cast or brought into being. An anti-magic shell is a spell that prevents the operation of other magic, it is not a 'dead magic' zone or somesuch.

As it is magic, then other magic can be created and specifically tailored to combat it or ignore its effects. I think that this is why the spell is 6th level. Conceivably you can have a higher level spell that dismisses and banishes an 'anti-magic shell' whilst the caster is still in it. In other words, there are spells that can be cast while inside an 'anti-magic shell' - see the aforementioned novel and note its reference to a 'spell shear' as cast by the fabled Mythanthar.

I've conceptualised a few specialised spells in this regard previously - one is called something like 'weave aura' which is a 9th level contingency type spell that operates on contact with a sphere or area of anti-magic. It basically wraps the worker in a small shard of the Weave instantaneously and allows them to continue casting spells in a normal fashion that affect them personally (i.e. they can 'teleport' out) or take effect outside of the 'anti-magic shell' itself. Another one I thought of was 'Maranth's Shunsphere', an 8th level spell which can be cast inside an anti-magic shell and moves it instantaneously to another area within the spell range.

Of course, the above are very specialised spells and not something that would be in most wizard's repetoires or memorised on a daily basis. But if you knew that your wizard/monster opponent liked using anti-magic, it would be a no brainer.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 03 Jun 2009 00:06:19
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The Sage
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Posted - 03 Jun 2009 :  00:52:15  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm inclined to agree with Krash.

An anti-magic spell is still a spell. It's not dead magic. It is still powered by the Weave. If it wasn't, then it would collapse upon casting, 'eating' itself in the process.

I've ponder on the possibility that one could craft a spell specifically designed to deal with anti-magic shells/rays that could operate and be cast in anti-magic areas. But haven't got any further on that.

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Artemel
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Posted - 03 Jun 2009 :  01:02:34  Show Profile  Visit Artemel's Homepage Send Artemel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And there is always http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm

It's a spell that can destroy anti-magic fields, potentially.

:)
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The Simbul
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Posted - 03 Jun 2009 :  06:18:42  Show Profile  Visit The Simbul's Homepage Send The Simbul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
3E D&D did have an antimagic item, and it was printed in a FORGOTTEN REALMS source. The second of those two details gives me surprise that it was not mentioned earlier.

The Antimagic Torque appeared in Underdark. It was a neck-slot magic item that could produce an antimagic field effect around the wearer once per day, activated by a command word. It had a very short duration if I remember correctly.

Anything more than that I would consider to be too powerful, specifically since a magic item activated by command word (as well as continuous or use-activated items) can be used by any character, without any need of skill or spellcasting abilities.

By contrast--aside from the very skilled or charismatic rogue--the use of a scroll, scepter, or even a staff containing antimagic field is generally going to be limited to the same characters who suffer the most from its effects: spellcasters.
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Janav
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Posted - 03 Jun 2009 :  07:18:11  Show Profile  Visit Janav's Homepage Send Janav a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the replies and for the clearing up. I actually didn't look in the underdark sourcebook and i don't recall the Antimagic Torque - will have to check it when i get home :).

George Krashos - thanks for clarifying that point further. That's partially what i was uncertain about.
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George Krashos
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Posted - 03 Jun 2009 :  07:50:27  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're more than welcome. Thanks for raising such an interesting topic and letting me show off!

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freyar
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Posted - 03 Jun 2009 :  13:26:52  Show Profile  Visit freyar's Homepage Send freyar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate

For the purposes of 3e, Scepters take over the functions of specific wands like the Wands of Fire and Frost. Also, on topic, your player could make a Scepter of Antimagic Shell, since Scepters can hold up to 7th level spells.



I don't know scepters. Do you mean rods? Or possibly staffs?

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 03 Jun 2009 :  15:52:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by freyar

quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate

For the purposes of 3e, Scepters take over the functions of specific wands like the Wands of Fire and Frost. Also, on topic, your player could make a Scepter of Antimagic Shell, since Scepters can hold up to 7th level spells.



I don't know scepters. Do you mean rods? Or possibly staffs?



A scepter is like a really fancy-looking mace.

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Artemel
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Posted - 03 Jun 2009 :  16:42:11  Show Profile  Visit Artemel's Homepage Send Artemel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

I don't know scepters. Do you mean rods? Or possibly staffs?



As in Craft Scepter from Lost Empires of Faerun. Sort of a step between wands and staffs if I recall correctly.
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Erik Scott de Bie
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Posted - 03 Jun 2009 :  17:04:44  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

You're more than welcome. Thanks for raising such an interesting topic and letting me show off!
-- George Krashos

I agree heartily: we always appreciate it when someone gives Krash the chance to show off!

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

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Knight of the Gate
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Posted - 03 Jun 2009 :  17:12:19  Show Profile  Visit Knight of the Gate's Homepage  Send Knight of the Gate a Yahoo! Message Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Artemel

quote:

I don't know scepters. Do you mean rods? Or possibly staffs?



As in Craft Scepter from Lost Empires of Faerun. Sort of a step between wands and staffs if I recall correctly.


That's the one. They allow the creator to imbue them with one or two spells of up to seventh level each.

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco
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freyar
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Posted - 05 Jun 2009 :  13:24:15  Show Profile  Visit freyar's Homepage Send freyar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Artemel
As in Craft Scepter from Lost Empires of Faerun. Sort of a step between wands and staffs if I recall correctly.



Ok, non-core. Thanks! I'd just been thinking how some rods in 3.X replaced some of the old unique wands (like viscid globs, etc).

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Knight of the Gate
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Posted - 05 Jun 2009 :  17:09:16  Show Profile  Visit Knight of the Gate's Homepage  Send Knight of the Gate a Yahoo! Message Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by freyar

quote:
Originally posted by Artemel
As in Craft Scepter from Lost Empires of Faerun. Sort of a step between wands and staffs if I recall correctly.



Ok, non-core. Thanks! I'd just been thinking how some rods in 3.X replaced some of the old unique wands (like viscid globs, etc).


In LEoF the creation of scepters is presented as lost Netherese lore, but I've worked them into several campaigns (giving the PCs the chance to learn the feat) and the players have universally loved them.

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 05 Jun 2009 :  17:49:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by freyar

quote:
Originally posted by Artemel
As in Craft Scepter from Lost Empires of Faerun. Sort of a step between wands and staffs if I recall correctly.



Ok, non-core. Thanks! I'd just been thinking how some rods in 3.X replaced some of the old unique wands (like viscid globs, etc).



Yup. Because when a stick won't hold magic spells, a bigger stick will.

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Knight of the Gate
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Posted - 05 Jun 2009 :  19:26:26  Show Profile  Visit Knight of the Gate's Homepage  Send Knight of the Gate a Yahoo! Message Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by freyar

quote:
Originally posted by Artemel
As in Craft Scepter from Lost Empires of Faerun. Sort of a step between wands and staffs if I recall correctly.



Ok, non-core. Thanks! I'd just been thinking how some rods in 3.X replaced some of the old unique wands (like viscid globs, etc).



Yup. Because when a stick won't hold magic spells, a bigger stick will.


Reaffirming the age-old wisdom: Size DOES matter.

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 05 Jun 2009 :  19:58:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by freyar

quote:
Originally posted by Artemel
As in Craft Scepter from Lost Empires of Faerun. Sort of a step between wands and staffs if I recall correctly.



Ok, non-core. Thanks! I'd just been thinking how some rods in 3.X replaced some of the old unique wands (like viscid globs, etc).



Yup. Because when a stick won't hold magic spells, a bigger stick will.


Reaffirming the age-old wisdom: Size DOES matter.




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Erik Scott de Bie
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Posted - 05 Jun 2009 :  20:21:39  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know, I just got why all my annoying NPC wizard villains carried around blasting scepters . . . compensating, you know.

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Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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