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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 08 May 2009 : 03:15:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Honestly, I can't see how any number of magical societies and churches WOULDN'T immediately start casting divinationa and looking up charts and tracing the events back to discover who and what is responsible for a giant piece of the moon falling out of the sky. As heavily as Faerunian mages study the cosmos (consider this - someone DID invent the Sphere that traced the constellations and led Erevis to become a shade in the first place), I think it kind of absurd that Selune could lose a Tear the same moment hundreds were killed in a fiery explosion and everybody would just shrug and say 'oops, must've been a god. Moving on.'
Point, partially... Sure, magical societies and any deities that pay attention to the night would be interested. But that's it, I think, and it's a relatively small number of people, compared to the overall populace. Most people are going to be more concerned about their day-to-day lives, not the disappearance of a single point of light -- which assumes that the Tear grabbed was even one of the visible ones!
But what are the deities going to say? "Oh, yeah, this mortal just grabbed one of the Tears and moved it around. Why didn't we stop this guy from messing around with our territory? Dunno... How did this one mortal get so much power? Maybe we shouldn't tell you that..." |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 May 2009 03:17:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2009 : 03:48:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Mac
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Aside from Spelljammers (wich have mostly been ignored for two editions now), and a few lonely Sages who need to get out more, I don't think any groundlings really bother to keep track of the Tears, in regards to how many there really are, or bother to even name any of them.
That might be true if astrology did not exist in the Realms. But as astrology does exist, some people are going to be interested in the movement of the planets, the phases of the moon and the positions of the Tears of Selune.
IIRC, the astrologers of Kara-Tur got very exited when the Tears of Selune first popped into existance. (This was actually a relatively recent event.)
Having said that, astrologers (and other interested groundlings) will have a Toril-centric view of Realmspace. So rather than imagining the Tears of Selune as a disc, they will just see it as a scattered straight line.
In fact the entire "Sea of Night" concept, would imply a bunch of islands floating in a sea, rather than objects that are (in spme cases) as big as Toril itself.
As much as I love Spelljammer, I can't regard anything in Realmspace as being Realms canon. There are plenty of problems with lore in there, most notably the fact that almost none of it is confirmed in any Realms source, and some Realms stuff actually contradicts Realmspace.
No Realms source speaks of the sudden appearance of the Tears... And in the Grand History, there is a reference to the Tears having been created by accident during the Time of Dragons, which way predates that Shou reference. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2009 : 07:22:59
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There is also an entry in The Great Glacier that say Toril was hit by a meteor just a few hundred years ago that changed it's axial tilt and caused the Glaciers to melt.
The planet's axial tilt was changed... and only the primitive peoples of Pelvuria know about it? 
No clouds of dust blocking out the sun for a century? No incredible blast-wave wiping out all life? No tectonic upheavals or Tsunamis?
If I was a Torillian, I find another Prime World and move, what with those stupid tears falling all the time!
Then again, it is one tough planet, considering its getting hit with city-sized chunks of rock all the time and no-one bats an eye.
As for the Shou/Kara-Tur reference - the gods of the celestial Bureaucracy kept the tears hidden from the Shou peoples - for whatever reason - and once they got Spelljammer technology the jig was up.
Thats my story, and I'm stickin' to it.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 May 2009 16:47:11 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 01:43:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Honestly, I can't see how any number of magical societies and churches WOULDN'T immediately start casting divinationa and looking up charts and tracing the events back to discover who and what is responsible for a giant piece of the moon falling out of the sky. As heavily as Faerunian mages study the cosmos (consider this - someone DID invent the Sphere that traced the constellations and led Erevis to become a shade in the first place), I think it kind of absurd that Selune could lose a Tear the same moment hundreds were killed in a fiery explosion and everybody would just shrug and say 'oops, must've been a god. Moving on.'
Point, partially... Sure, magical societies and any deities that pay attention to the night would be interested. But that's it, I think, and it's a relatively small number of people, compared to the overall populace. Most people are going to be more concerned about their day-to-day lives, not the disappearance of a single point of light -- which assumes that the Tear grabbed was even one of the visible ones!
But what are the deities going to say? "Oh, yeah, this mortal just grabbed one of the Tears and moved it around. Why didn't we stop this guy from messing around with our territory? Dunno... How did this one mortal get so much power? Maybe we shouldn't tell you that..."
Sorry, Wooly I still don't buy it. I think yes - considering that Faerunian deities will notice all kinds of minutia (sp?) in the Realms, I think Selune would more than just 'notice' if a mortal pulled one of her Tears out of the sky and then let it crumble to the ground and kill hundreds of people. And I'm not saying that the peasants would have an uprising, just that they would notice.
I think if people in Calimport or pirates on the frickin ocean can learn about how there's a new Lord of Waterdeep in the mix, then people would notice if one of only a few stars near the moon (that pic from NWN not withstanding) suddenly plummeted to earth...that's earth, not THE Earth...
Could anyone do much about it? No. But I find it a bit absurd that not the Chosen of Mystra nor any clerics of Selune nor anybody who had been looking up in the sky at any point for the past thousands of years wouldn't at least say 'hmm...that's queer. I wonder if we should find out why we're all suddenly on fire...'
I think it's just one of things that WOTC decided to overlook in favor of cramming other stuff notcoming from novels into 4th ed. I just think that as beautiful as that story was, as Realms-shattering as it should've been, they should have at least nodded their heads in Kemp's direction.
...and if I were one of said moon-priests, I'd be uber-pissed and lookin for answers. Hmm...methinks there's a short story in there somewhere... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 06:56:51
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I'm not saying people wouldn't notice -- I'm saying that most people wouldn't care. Here on Earth, we've been staring at the night sky for thousands of years... If suddenly one star can't be seen, how is this going to impact your life?
And I'm also saying that the gods are not going to admit that a mortal had that much power... A mortal wielded god-like power, and messed with a deity's turf, and caused the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands -- and no deity did anything to act against him. You think they're going to admit to something like that? "Oh, yeah, we dropped the ball, here -- but don't you try that! We gave every appearance of being powerless, but trust us, we can still do all sorts of stuff!"
I'd actually like some input on why a mortal was allowed to pull off a stunt like that without deific interference. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 17:03:26
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Because the character was a 'cosmic muffin' - an uber-baddie of such magnitude that he was able to kidnap powerful Celestials and Fiends with ease, and he himself stated, "No-one can stop me".
He flat-out told that Celestial that it's 'friends' would be unable to find him, or rescue him if they could (and they themselves would die in the attempt), and IIRC, he made mention of the fact that he had "dealt with gods before as well".
Basically, he ate gods for lunch, or so the author would make it seem. That part of the story I find a bit much. Not that I mind that level of power, and the scene with the Celestial was the way in which the author hinted to us as to why gods weren't getting involved.
Add to that that at least one god was directly involved in stopping him (Mask). Who knows what sort of deals were made 'on-high'? As long as one deity was handling the situation others might not have felt the need to ge involved. I could defiantely see Selune taking an interest, and the Mask informing her that it was being taken care of. They do have some indirect history together (revolving around Leira - including that bit from Spelljammer that you dislike so much). Mask being the god of people who mostly make their living at night, and Selune being the moon goddess can allow all sorts of speculation on their 'working relationship'.
When I read a novel, I often 'back-fill' scenes in mentally, imagining for myself what was occurring elsewhere to allow it. Authors don't have that sort of leeway, because they have page-counts and deadlines. Its up to us to fill in the 'big picture' of the world around the novel.
Of course, in a shared world like FR, this becomes much harder to do at times, when several things seem to happen to the same area, person, or item simultaneously (as it did to the Twin Towers of the Eclipse.)
I could pick those novels apart, but I could do that with any FR novels (including Ed's), but I don't bother. I disconnect my 'FR Nerve' from my novel-reading and just enjoy the story as it was meant to be enjoyed. When I don't enjoy a novel or series (as I didn't with WotSQ), THEN I start picking-out the numerous errors... but I have to already have not liked it for some reason to do that.
Edit: In order to try and stear this back on-topic, I just went through Twilight Falling, and absolutely no details were given. An orrery was used in the scene, by only as a visual model for Cale. The sphere itelf was described as a Map to a 'when' (rather then a 'where'). In fact, nowhere in that disussion (pgs.173-174) is 'constellations' even used - just stars and "other heavenly bodies".
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 May 2009 17:25:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 17:21:43
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| I dunno... I just can't see any plausible reason that Selūne would allow this plot to succeed. If it the whole thing was a surprise to her, she still could have grabbed the Tear before it entered Toril's atmosphere and moved it back. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 May 2009 17:23:34 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 17:22:33
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Look at the mortal - way beyond the ken of the normal spellslinger (much like good 'ol Karsus, one could argue, who was allowed to do awful things...). Free Will dictates they get to do as they wish, but one could argue that one god DID interfere - Mask, via Erevis.
I think you're right however on one front, someone dropped the ball in the heavens (or hells), or, and more likely, it happened for a reason. Someone needed that destruction to go down.
And I think I would notice if a star that had been part of a small series of star constantly visible whenever the moon was, suddenly disappeared after something plummeted to the Earth (that's THE Earth, this time ).
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My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 17:33:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Look at the mortal - way beyond the ken of the normal spellslinger (much like good 'ol Karsus, one could argue, who was allowed to do awful things...). Free Will dictates they get to do as they wish, but one could argue that one god DID interfere - Mask, via Erevis.
Fine. Free will gives them the chance to try. Are the gods totally powerless, though? Do they have to allow anything and everything to happen, especially in their own backyard? Not no, hell no. There is no reason for Selūne not to have done something.
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I think you're right however on one front, someone dropped the ball in the heavens (or hells), or, and more likely, it happened for a reason. Someone needed that destruction to go down.
I fail to see how anyone benefitted from the destruction.
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
And I think I would notice if a star that had been part of a small series of star constantly visible whenever the moon was, suddenly disappeared after something plummeted to the Earth (that's THE Earth, this time ).
*bangs head into wall, desk, keyboard, and any other handy, mostly immobile object* Why do you keep sticking on the noticing aspect? I've already said, more than once, that yes, people would notice. What I keep saying is not that people wouldn't notice, but that the average person isn't going to care at all about the disappearance of one of the thousands of twinkling little lights in the sky. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 17:36:51
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I had added an Edit to that post before either of you responded....
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno... I just can't see any plausible reason that Selūne would allow this plot to succeed. If it the whole thing was a surprise to her, she still could have grabbed the Tear before it entered Toril's atmosphere and moved it back.
Mask's connections to 'shadows', and through his affiliation with Shar and former affiliation with Leira, both could allow him a bit of power in the 'things hidden' dept. He may have somehow managed to keep her out of it by more then agreement - the event may have been veiled from her until too late (doubtful), or Mask may have had her distracted elsewhere (more in-line with Mask's M.O., but only slightly less likely then the first thing I mentioned).
I also think it could have just been Selune's choice to let it happen, for whatever reason. We have canon lore that at least two other 'Tear Falls' have occurred, and for all we know those may have been unnatural events as well. Maybe Selune doesn't like all that crap following her around.
I have theorized before that I thought the FR mythos would work better if Shar had a Moon of her own (a 'Dark Moon'... with a purplish aura under certain circumstances). This moon would have been destroyed during the WoL&D (probably when Selune tore Mystryl from Shar), and those tears are what's left. Forever fated to follow her around the Heavens, a reminder to Selune of what she had done.
If you use that take, then it could be a good reason why she wouldn't mind seeing them go.
I don't think it was as simple as "someone dropped the ball in the heavens" - that seems unlikely where gods are concerned. I will agree with Arion Elenim that it is far more likely that someone wanted it to happen, and that Selune was 'blocked' from interferring (which would include that the events could have been obscurred from her... which would take some major mojo).
Edit: Come to think of it, the meteorite storm fell mostly on Sembia. Wouldn't it have been in Shar's best interest to weaken Sembia and 'sew chaos' anyway she could, since we now know that the Shades were working towards a take-over? Shar would have both the power and reason for veiling the unfolding events from Selune, and it would be within her portfolio to do so. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 May 2009 17:42:50 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 18:03:02
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I still don't see it. We don't have any evidence that Shar was involved. And even if she was, it wasn't just her and Selūne that were affected... Mystra's Weave was part of what was being used. Hundreds of people being killed would have meant a lot of deities lost followers -- and in Sembia, this would have affected Waukeen, since this kind of thing would disrupt commerce.
And even if Shar somehow stopped all these other deities from noticing anything before it happened, the deorbiting of the Tear was not an instantaneous thing -- thousands of people saw it. That means thousands of fearful prayers going to all these different deities -- did Shar somehow block those, too? If she could do that in this case, then she could do it at any time, and it's game over for any deity other than her.
Again, I don't see any reason why the Sojourner wasn't stopped. Even if he succeeded in deorbiting the Tear, there was still plenty of time for plenty of deities to react and make sure it got put back. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 18:26:03
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Because if the Sojourner was stopped, we wouldn't have had the trilogy.
I understand your sentiments, but I think you may be asking a bit much. Although parts of the series was very over-the-top, it was just a good yarn at it's heart.
By the same token, why the hell didn't someone just put a bullet in Batman 50 years ago and be done with him? 
There is a point where you need to kick-in your suspension of disbelief... especially where a shared-author, fantasy game setting like FR is concerned.
And yes.. I do agree with your sentiments.. I just moved beyond them for my part. I think Paul is an excellent writer and I learned to over-look the 'hokey-bits'.
Hell, If I applied logic to everything I read, I would have never enjoyed Angels and Demons or The DaVinci Code.
Great stories both.. but completely full of $***.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 May 2009 21:24:11 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 19:15:08
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Simple answer Willy. I said that because you said: "Here on Earth, we've been staring at the night sky for thousands of years... If suddenly one star can't be seen, how is this going to impact your life?" :)
Sorry if I'm causing you the desire to cause yourself bodily harm, but I have to disagree with ya. :)
Oh, and Markustay, I'm fine with suspension of disbelief. I just feel a little miffed that Kemp's stuff gets kicked under the couch when he writes about things that should be one o' them there Realms Shattering Events. It's not like he's Salvatore - whose events (the invasion of MH notwithstanding) tend to be primarily personal and don't impact the Realms at large.
Though at least the Shadowstorm got a nod in 4e. It would have been silly to ignore such a thing, and I feel that by the same token the shattering of a Tear should be noticed by the populace and cause a general concern. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 20:14:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Because if the Sojourner was stopped, we wouldn't have had the trilogy.
Not necessarily -- he could have succeeded, and then Selūne stepped in and moved the Tear back... The Tear falling was not part of his plan -- just moving it was. That was all he cared about, creating his eclipse. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 20:24:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Simple answer Willy. I said that because you said: "Here on Earth, we've been staring at the night sky for thousands of years... If suddenly one star can't be seen, how is this going to impact your life?" :)
Sorry if I'm causing you the desire to cause yourself bodily harm, but I have to disagree with ya. :)
There's a difference between noticing something and being impacted by it. You can notice the new haircut on your significant other, but it's not going to change your life.
You keep saying people will notice. I have not contested that. I'm saying that even if people notice, that for the vast majority of folks, it's not going to be worth anything more than a comment or maybe a brief conversation.
Unless your livelihood and/or hobbies directly involve constantly watching what's going on in the sky, having one star more or less doesn't change a thing for you. If you're a guard, bad guys aren't going to act differently nor your sword suddenly swing differently. If you're a cook, food's not suddenly going to acquire a new taste. If you're a farmer, your turnips aren't going to suddenly grow to five times the size and need three times as much water. If you're a craftsman, your materials will still behave the same. And so on.
It's like a branch falling out of a tree. It might be worth commentary, but it's a non-issue for just about everyone involved. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 21:15:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There is also an entry in The Great Glacier that say Toril was hit by a meteor just a few hundred years ago that changed it's axial tilt and caused the Glaciers to melt.
The planet's axial tilt was changed... and only the primitive peoples of Pelvuria know about it?
No clouds of dust blocking out the sun for a century? No incredible blast-wave wiping out all life? No tectonic upheavals or Tsunamis?
If I was a Torillian, I find another Prime World and move, what with those stupid tears falling all the time!
Then again, it is one tough planet, considering its getting hit with city-sized chunks of rock all the time and no-one bats an eye.
As for the Shou/Kara-Tur reference - the gods of the celestial Bureaucracy kept the tears hidden from the Shou peoples - for whatever reason - and once they got Spelljammer technology the jig was up.
Thats my story, and I'm stickin' to it.
Dont forget those pesky Elves. 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 21:29:27
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I can't blame the Elves for everything Brimstone...
...no matter how hard I try.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not necessarily -- he could have succeeded, and then Selūne stepped in and moved the Tear back... The Tear falling was not part of his plan -- just moving it was. That was all he cared about, creating his eclipse.
Very good point.
That would have been the better way to go, in retrospect. Considering the negligible impact it had, thats the way things should have turned-out. Perhaps a little bit of the rock flaked-off, thus creating some dramatic 'shooting stars', but thats about as far as it should have gone. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 May 2009 21:30:01 |
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ijkay
Acolyte
Canada
17 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2009 : 19:30:05
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Its been a while since I read this trilogy so I can't quite remember if the extent of the damage/deaths caused by the Tearfall.
Nonetheless I would take it not so much as why did Selune let him do it but as why would Selune want the Tearfall?
Thoughts that came to my mind were:
At the centre of every Tear is an artifact like jewel (ala 2nd Ed Player's Guide to FR) and Selune wished one to be put into play again.
Fragments of the Tear were directed subtlely to hit targets of Selune's enemies. (She gave each fragment a push to where she wanted it to go)
She slipped subtle warnings to friendly peers such that true believers had time to get out of the way.
Questions from the Mortal world as to the why would be answered with mystical answers along the along the line of "The ancient writings of Moonseer Tywerna Plewster foretold a rise in power of the Silvered Rays of the Moon to be proceeded by the casting to ground of a Tear of the Lady."
Answering to the God council at large would be something like "The movement of the Tear was not my doing and resultant destruction was caused by another agent. That one dared to touch a sacred namesake of mine is being hunted by mine own and will be punished as I deem fit. (All could be true in a sense)
Thus she sends agents after the Soujourner(can't remember if he died in the novels or not), he becomes the patsy and perhaps the other gods look to each other for the cause if any of theirs had been damaged.
Just a few thoughts but I like the idea of somebody thinking they are defying the gods but are being manipulated by them unknowingly.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I still don't see it. We don't have any evidence that Shar was involved. And even if she was, it wasn't just her and Selūne that were affected... Mystra's Weave was part of what was being used. Hundreds of people being killed would have meant a lot of deities lost followers -- and in Sembia, this would have affected Waukeen, since this kind of thing would disrupt commerce.
And even if Shar somehow stopped all these other deities from noticing anything before it happened, the deorbiting of the Tear was not an instantaneous thing -- thousands of people saw it. That means thousands of fearful prayers going to all these different deities -- did Shar somehow block those, too? If she could do that in this case, then she could do it at any time, and it's game over for any deity other than her.
Again, I don't see any reason why the Sojourner wasn't stopped. Even if he succeeded in deorbiting the Tear, there was still plenty of time for plenty of deities to react and make sure it got put back.
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Ian Franks
"So I thought to myself who gives a damn if all the jobs are gone, I'm going to be a Pirate on the River Saskatchewan!", The Arrogant Worms |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2010 : 09:43:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I still don't see it. We don't have any evidence that Shar was involved.
Towards the end of 3E Shar was involed in everything, or so it seems... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 23:15:47
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| heh. Space nipples |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 04:34:56
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| Uh... What? How is that in any way relevant to this discussion? |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Nov 2010 04:37:56 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 04:55:56
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| Strange phenomena of the heavens, I suppose. Manifestations of divine, uh, power. I dunno. Maybe just delete it. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 05:47:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
heh. Space nipples
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 17:47:43
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Note that Waterdeep (Avatar Trilogy) established that when Midnight became a goddess, a constellation of her new holy symbol appeared in the sky that evening.
Taking that and extrapolating to the number of pantheons of deities Toril has, one would think there wouldn't be any space for constellations that were not actually associated with some deity. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 17:57:55
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| Ah ... I thought Spelljammer explained that Realmspace is a big crystal sphere. The stars/constellations are just images on the inside surface of the sphere. People walk around on this surface. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 18:13:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Ah ... I thought Spelljammer explained that Realmspace is a big crystal sphere. The stars/constellations are just images on the inside surface of the sphere. People walk around on this surface.
Indeed. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 18:20:48
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quote:
Originally posted by see
Note that Waterdeep (Avatar Trilogy) established that when Midnight became a goddess, a constellation of her new holy symbol appeared in the sky that evening.
Taking that and extrapolating to the number of pantheons of deities Toril has, one would think there wouldn't be any space for constellations that were not actually associated with some deity.
Not necessarily... Just because we know of one deity with a dedicated constellation, it doesn't mean there are others. That same book failed to mention a constellation for Cyric, and we've no references to disappearing constellations for slain deities, nor to the night sky changing when all the gods were kicked out of the heavens.
The Dragginglance idea of each deity having a constellation is an okay idea with a limited number of deities, but it would never work in the Realms. Besides, with some deities, a constellation wouldn't be appropriate -- like with Shar or Lathander. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 18:30:52
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Which FR deities seem mostly likely to be able to "rearrange" constellations? Lathandar, Selūne, Mystra, Ao, Grumbar?
I can't recall any major events or characters relying on astrology in the Realms. Yes, navigation and astrology skills exist and "planetary alignments" and such stuff are handy plot devices from time to time, but the constellations seem to have been entirely ignored. |
[/Ayrik] |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 22:33:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by see
Note that Waterdeep (Avatar Trilogy) established that when Midnight became a goddess, a constellation of her new holy symbol appeared in the sky that evening.
Taking that and extrapolating to the number of pantheons of deities Toril has, one would think there wouldn't be any space for constellations that were not actually associated with some deity.
Not necessarily... Just because we know of one deity with a dedicated constellation, it doesn't mean there are others. That same book failed to mention a constellation for Cyric,
Certainly not necessarily. But Khelben did say "That's one of the new constellations"; note the plural.
It is possible that the new constellations did not all correspond to new gods. But we know there were new gods, new constellations, and a direct link between one of the new constellations and one of the new gods. The inference that constellations and gods match one-to-one is a plausible one.
As far as the number, the number of constellations in the real world, as defined by the IAU, is 88. It is not particularly difficult to design a night sky where the constellations average half the height and width of real-life ones (with more tightly-grouped stars and probably no Milky Way) and thus have a sky with more than 350 constellations. Plenty to handle all the gods of Toril ever named anywhere in print with scores left over for the undetailed areas.
Since many of the constellations will not be visible from any given spot on Toril, and since there will be many constellations of gods from Kara-Tur, Maztica, Zakhara, etc. in the sky, there will be no obvious one-to-one correspondence between known gods and constellations to the average inhabitant of the Realms, and thus no easy way to check deific status by the stars. It is also quite possible that dead gods' constellations linger, perhaps as long as any deity continues to answer prayers to that god.
I'm not saying this is canon, but it is a plausible extrapolation consistent with canon.
(And Shar's constellation is obviously entirely done in dark stars. ) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 23:29:23
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by see
Note that Waterdeep (Avatar Trilogy) established that when Midnight became a goddess, a constellation of her new holy symbol appeared in the sky that evening.
Taking that and extrapolating to the number of pantheons of deities Toril has, one would think there wouldn't be any space for constellations that were not actually associated with some deity.
Not necessarily... Just because we know of one deity with a dedicated constellation, it doesn't mean there are others. That same book failed to mention a constellation for Cyric,
Certainly not necessarily. But Khelben did say "That's one of the new constellations"; note the plural.
True. But do remember that constellations shift and change over time. What Realms folk see as constellations today, likely weren't recognisable as constellations 35,000 years ago. Khelben could merely have been referring to the shifting of stars and planets in the night's sky, over an extended period of time. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The night's sky in the realms...
