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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2013 : 22:26:32
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So tiamat use to be a devil type as was lolth, why no anger when they became gods, but we are angery over the most arguably powerful thing in the hells become one?
Edit Let us NOT focus on how he became, how sloppy it was, or shoehorned into the realm.
I wish to focus on the fact that other creatures of similar status has bounced between divinity and not having divinity.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2013 : 23:35:08
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I, personally, am not bugged by Tiamat's ascension because to me it makes sense for her, and because I think she is a natural fit for the Realms.
Asmodeus, on the other hand, likely could have undergone apotheosis anytime he wanted -- the guy is prolly older than Realmspace. He didn't need to have a deity conveniently land at his feet in order to obtain godhood; he could have taken it whenever it was convenient for him, without offing a Realms deity in the process.
I wouldn't be surprised to find out he's helped other fiends ascend to godhood, for his own purposes.
And while I do see a place for Asmodeus in Golarion, I don't think he fits into the Realms as a deity. Especially since one of the stated design goals for the 4E Realms was to have less deities -- this is not something you accomplish by arbitrarily handing out godhood to non-deities. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2013 : 23:44:44
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Not sure about anger, just incredulous dismay at the silly "origins" story. Bad timing I guess.
Tiamat and Lolth appeared to have more D&D divine connections/potential than Asmodeus in the form of Takhisis and Araunshnee. In the Realms themselves, Tiamat grew gradually and her godhood was eventually supported in many products (Draconomicon 2e, Monster Mythology). Tiamat also had connections to the Untheric pantheon and also the draconic pantheon. Plus dragons are still mortal beings who might believe in a god, devils are a different matter and more cynical after knowing what they know.
Planescape, being awesome, also had much to do with solidifying the diabolical rule over hell and Tiamat was free to go the route of five-headed evil dragon goddess. Displacing her from being ruler of the Avernus for baatezu devils meant she got a raise to divinity.
What was enticing about a non-divine Asmodeus was he was outside of the system, he was beyond it and affairs of petty mortal pantheons. They relied on worship, he literally ate souls (depending on some sources). He's part of a different supernatural economy and there's something scary about a villain who has very different views of existence and the multiverse than your typical evil god. He was a heavy-weight on a super-cosmological sense. A divine Asmodeus actually felt like a demotion given his prior place in lore.
There is also the notion that Paizo was doing the Asmodeus thing as well and Asmodeus's church is the center of a major empire on Golarion. The Realms doesn't quite have anything to match that. Regardless of who was first, the Realms comes out the loser in terms of utilization of Asmodeus, thus he seems like an after thought where as on Golarion he is fully integrated. The Realms had Gargauth, which would have answered a neat question, what does an ex-devil lord do with his time? He becomes a god and he's pretty good at it having gained when others lost during the Spellplague. Now that would have been an interesting development. |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 00:52:17
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I could see a tie between Gargauth and Asmodeus...
Gargauth "exiled" but still in the service of the Lord of Sin. Giving Asmodeus access to the divine while still able to do what he's being doing extremely well for ages...
As for Tiamat, she has always felt a part of the Realms. Even if the entire Draconic Pantheon hasn't always been an active part of it, Tiamat has with one scheme or another. So for her to represent the evil chromatic dragons in the Realms makes as much sense as every other racial deity present in the Realms. |
Edited by - ksu_bond on 09 Aug 2013 00:56:24 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 00:58:57
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| Yeah wasen't Tiamat a big part of the latest portion of the griffion company books? |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 02:03:41
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| I'm just going to echo what Dark Wizard said although I'm not mad about Asmo being a deity. I just don't like how he became one. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 02:09:38
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How about this fix...
Asmodeus has always been a Greater Deity... he just hide it, he lied about it like any devil would to gain an advantage. By killing Azuth but not absorbing the spark of divinity but instead storing it.... He can let out the knowledge of him being a Greater Deity under a cloak of the illusion he gained it from Azuth, but while holding Azuth or his divine power for future bartering and Faustian deals (who told people Asmodeus stole the divine energy of Azuth... and does he have links to Asmo?). Perhaps to gain an advantage over the very powerful goddess of magic?
Thoughts? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 02:17:30
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I could live with that Fox. It also gives a nice explanation for the return of Azuth. I do have to say, however, that hiding one's (greater) divinity should difficult...even for Asmo.
Oh, an explanation of Azuth's return...I'm assuming that since his divine energy wasn't actually absorbed that he could be reconstituted. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 09 Aug 2013 02:20:04 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 02:43:20
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Could work.
I'd still prefer the divine Asmodeus to be one of many ruses the adamantly un-divine archdevil concocted to further his labyrinthine plots. Azuth could be an imprisoned godling, Asmodeus draws on his power, but in the grand scheme of things, what is one minor deity to all the evil forces of hell.
Back some time ago (on the WotC boards) I had some ideas for a "Dark Azuth" or a "Grey Azuth" who survived his supposed encounter with Asmodeus but returned as a grittier entity who espoused furthering magic and being hardened spellcasters to prevent another cataclysm or an impending fiendish invasion. I feel the Realms should have an Enclave of Magic deities, many deities of magic to reflect the diversity of magic and styles of spellcasting. They would run the gamut of alignments and outlooks. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 02:54:41
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| I like my games to be gritty/messy (think Game of Thrones novels) myself. Someone speculated in another thread that Mystra (merged with The Simbul) would come back grittier...and I think Azuth following suit would be great. My version of Mystra is TN alignmnent anyway. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 03:39:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, personally, am not bugged by Tiamat's ascension because to me it makes sense for her, and because I think she is a natural fit for the Realms.
Pretty much. I like that Tiamat now has a more permanent fit in the Realmslore.
quote:
Asmodeus, on the other hand, likely could have undergone apotheosis anytime he wanted -- the guy is prolly older than Realmspace. He didn't need to have a deity conveniently land at his feet in order to obtain godhood; he could have taken it whenever it was convenient for him, without offing a Realms deity in the process.
Asmodeus, both in and out of the traditional PLANESCAPE-lore, kind of had this ascension-pending aspect built into most of the material written about him. So I'd be inclined to agree, and just simply further note that his mastery of schemes and lies apparently knows no bounds in the entirety of the D&D multiverse. So, naturally, he probably had numerous pathways to true apotheosis ready at various points and times throughout the ages. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 04:27:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Could work.
I'd still prefer the divine Asmodeus to be one of many ruses the adamantly un-divine archdevil concocted to further his labyrinthine plots. Azuth could be an imprisoned godling, Asmodeus draws on his power, but in the grand scheme of things, what is one minor deity to all the evil forces of hell.
Back some time ago (on the WotC boards) I had some ideas for a "Dark Azuth" or a "Grey Azuth" who survived his supposed encounter with Asmodeus but returned as a grittier entity who espoused furthering magic and being hardened spellcasters to prevent another cataclysm or an impending fiendish invasion. I feel the Realms should have an Enclave of Magic deities, many deities of magic to reflect the diversity of magic and styles of spellcasting. They would run the gamut of alignments and outlooks.
I'd prefer that Asmodeus be overthrown by Mephistopheles. I understand that the Nine Hells is an orderly place, and change comes slowly there. But come on! WOTC has been willing to change Thay, Halruaa, Nevewinter, Baldur's Gate, and other staples of the realms.
It lessens the impression of the Nine Hells being filled with the multiverse's most dangerous schemers if nobody can take Asmodeus out. Let's spice things up a bit in the outer planes. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 04:54:51
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Well, that is how we ended up with someone incased in ice, and another into a slug like creature. I would love an epic overturning arch of a story, but I would still want Asmodeus to win , and Mephistopheles maybe being influenced by the slip of mask he has, and maybe become the new minor god of thieves instead of having one of the mortals doing it.
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 05:32:48
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| I got the impression devil princes were of a similar level of power to gods. However, I do not think Asmodeuscould became a god anytime he wanted...becoming a deity should be mysterious process mortla do not understand. I reject the notion Asmodeus is a deity...it seems like he just had a popular name people were familiar with. In my own world I gave Gargauth the portfolio of sin which allowed him to be a lesser deity. (Asmodeus being a greater deity is silly unless the spellplague changed how Divine status is earned. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 05:41:24
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| One great big flaw in your statement, Asmodeus is not mere mortal who does not understand things. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 05:54:04
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Silverwolfer has it on the dot.
The hierarchy is so ingrained (and actively enforced), even super-genius level scheming by half of hell is hard pressed to throw off the order. Lesser, unworthy devils may shift in position due to endless machinations, but that is not befitting of the head honcho of hell.
Other devils think they act first, Asmodeus always laughs last.
Mwahahahaha! |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 05:59:45
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
So tiamat use to be a devil type as was lolth, why no anger when they became gods, but we are angery over the most arguably powerful thing in the hells become one?
Edit Let us NOT focus on how he became, how sloppy it was, or shoehorned into the realm.
I wish to focus on the fact that other creatures of similar status has bounced between divinity and not having divinity.
The thing is, Tiamat was only Lord of Avernus for a brief period during D&D's earliest years, and her status and history wasn't explored super heavily in most of those few sources that dealt with her. And still relatively early on in the game's history her status as Lord of Avernus was retconned. As a result, from 2e onwards, in-game Tiamat was not and never had been a devil or Lord of Avernus. She had always been the Chromatic Queen, a deity, and Bel was Lord of the 1st, with Zariel (and presumably others) holding the position before that. Tiamat's domain was situated on the border between Avernus and Dis, and as far as deities in Hell goes, she had a very special relationship with the Dark 8 (including a half-fiend child with one of them).
There wasn't much uproar over her being a god because she has been such for most of D&D's history, and when she wasn't, there wasn't much detail. Without having contradicted tons of information across lots of sources, there isn't much to get upset over, and as a result, it's not a very comparable situation to Asmo gaining godhood (and there are other complicating factors within the lore and continuity there as well). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 09 Aug 2013 06:05:56 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 06:26:29
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The answer is because Tiamat and Lolth were not devils. Tiamat was the mother of chromatic dragons and Lolth was the goddess of the drow. When the history of the drow on Toril was unfurled, in particular the Descent, then Araushnee was presented as an earlier Seldarine identity for Lolth, at least as far as the Realms cosmology is concerned. Both Tiamat and Lolth have always been divine; there was no bouncing.
Anything that argues with that is a retcon. Making either of them demons/devils is weak; they may use fiends, as servants and pawns, but reducing them to that rank is lame. We have plenty of interesting demons and devils; we don't need to go turning our gods into former-fiends.
On a tangent, Asmodeus shouldn't be a god either, and he shouldn't be interested in becoming one. As Wooly pointed out, he probably could have done so at any point if he wanted to. The answer to the question of "why didn't he" is that he didn't want or care to. Simple and logical. Ignore the idea that gods > archdevils... it's not true. Asmodeus should regard himself as "greater than most gods in most ways" and aspire to turn the "most" into "all" -- his plan should be not to change or become something other than what he is but to continue developing into something deeper and more powerful than any god... the entity of which Ao is a pale and distinctly weaker reflection.
Mephistopheles and the lesser Lords of the Nine are just trying to overthrow and become Asmodeus. That doesn't gloss over or minimize them; it's just a matter of scale/degrees. It wouldn't make sense for the Lord of the First to suddenly succeed in a plan to become more powerful than any other devil. It would be only slightly less nutty for the Lord of the Eighth to succeed. They may have huge hopes and dreams, and they're definitely watching carefully for opportunities to turn those dreams into plans, but the superiors over whom they're trying to step are careful and wise, and thus the end result is that the only successful steps are going to be baby steps. Otherwise, the outcome is unreasonable and ludicrous.
It's one thing to turn the Realms on its head every few years. It completely shatters the verisimilitude of the setting, but I understand the desire to blow stuff up and change stuff around frequently. Mortals are destructive and sadistic little buggers, and plus things can legitimately change rapidly even within a human lifetime. There are people alive today who remember a time before televisions or the internet were invented. Note: that doesn't justify RSEs; it only makes it possible to understand occasional rapid progressions of ideas or cultural development.
It's another thing, a totally irrational thing, to screw with the planes. Asmodeus has been around since before the gods existed. It seems reasonable that he's older than the Prime Material plane. What can and does sometimes change is mortals' perspective of the planes... not every five years for eternity, but sometimes. However, Asmodeus doesn't suddenly become a god unless he's always been a god and if Asmodeus is a god then what we should be wondering about is how we discovered that because it would be among his darkest and most carefully kept secrets. Being a god undoubtedly would make him vulnerable to certain things, and he wouldn't want anyone to know about that. It would also make his power dependent on the size of his cult -- considered by itself, this is enough reason to utterly trash the idea of Asmodeus being a god. Finally, it would place him (or at least his activities concerning the Realms) squarely under Ao's purview, and that would make Asmodeus much less interesting. He's infinitely better as the Lord of the Ninth, the Ao of the Hells, the insurmountable obstacle frustrating the dreams the other Lords harbor of altering the landscape of the lower planes to fit their own whims.
2 coppers.
Edit: I can stand somewhat corrected on a point of fact by Shemmy; I'd forgotten the Lord of Avernus bit. Tiamat is better as a goddess though, and I'd explain her apparent presence in Baator as a devil impersonating the goddess... and (perhaps consequently or perhaps for another reason) being a short-lived Lord.
If Tiamat were a devil, chromatic dragons would be extraplanar creatures and then Bahamut would have to be demoted to some kind of archon. I can't be the only one who sees that this would be dumb.  |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 09 Aug 2013 06:40:32 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2013 : 12:59:41
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Its been said, Tiamat was always a godlike entity to dragons... further enhanced when DL came out (and yes, I know they're "not" the same chromatic dragon goddess). Lolth was always some kind of "higher entity" for the drow race. So, when it was "revealed" that they'd attained godhood, it made sense.
There was no reason to ascend Asmodeus in the realms. You already had Gargauth, the exiled devil who became a god and who was plotting against Asmodeus to make a 10th layer of hell one day. Then, you have to throw in the amazingly silly method that it happened (oh look... a god, I'll absorb his divine power and ascend to a higher divine rank than even he was.... with a portfolio that has nothing to do with what he managed... yeahhhhhhhhhhh). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 19:18:51
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Its been said, Tiamat was always a godlike entity to dragons... further enhanced when DL came out (and yes, I know they're "not" the same chromatic dragon goddess). Lolth was always some kind of "higher entity" for the drow race. So, when it was "revealed" that they'd attained godhood, it made sense.
There was no reason to ascend Asmodeus in the realms. You already had Gargauth, the exiled devil who became a god and who was plotting against Asmodeus to make a 10th layer of hell one day. Then, you have to throw in the amazingly silly method that it happened (oh look... a god, I'll absorb his divine power and ascend to a higher divine rank than even he was.... with a portfolio that has nothing to do with what he managed... yeahhhhhhhhhhh).
I totally agree with the above quote. I also believe that for Asmodeus becoming a god may have actually made him less powerful and definitely less interesting.
@silverwolf Yes Tiamat was a big part of the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels. |
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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Why no anger over tiamat?
