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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
 Posted - 02 May 2009 : 06:57:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Have some of you scribes not tried Pathfinder yet? 
The rules? No need. The setting? It's not the Forgotten Realms.
You do make a good point. I could just stay 3e and homebrew my own version of the Realms. Like a Magelord Campaign set in 225 DR. The looks on my players faces when they meet Halaster Blackcloak and his Seven Apprentises at Deepwater Habor. Then Halaster calls a hunt in the future Undermountain. 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 02 May 2009 06:58:25 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2009 : 10:06:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Have some of you scribes not tried Pathfinder yet?
Nope. As I never could stand the 3ed. so I see no reason to try a game based on it. ANd what I have read about the game doesn't interest me at all.
I have plenty of TSR products and a couple of alternative systems to last me a lifetime. And I have little curiosity when I am already satisfied with what I have. If it works why fix it. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2009 : 00:03:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Have some of you scribes not tried Pathfinder yet?
The rules? No need. The setting? It's not the Forgotten Realms.
In my opinion it's as well written as the Realms, with the same kind of love and attention to detail as the Realms I fell in love with. The whole premise and design philosophy behind the setting is a lot more "grey" and aimed at more "mature" audience; I love it that even non-evil people *do* have wild sex, kill each other or worship devils/demons... unlike in 'Points of Light'.
I'm an old fan, but now I've become very excited about Golarion -- if I can't have that same kind of support for the Realms anymore, I'll happily buy Paizo goodness. And the best part is that nearly everything can be dropped into FR with only slight modifications! 
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2009 : 00:04:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Have some of you scribes not tried Pathfinder yet?
Nope. As I never could stand the 3ed. so I see no reason to try a game based on it. ANd what I have read about the game doesn't interest me at all.
I have plenty of TSR products and a couple of alternative systems to last me a lifetime. And I have little curiosity when I am already satisfied with what I have. If it works why fix it.
Nah, you're just an old grumbling grognard, Jorkens -- admit it!   |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2009 : 09:27:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Have some of you scribes not tried Pathfinder yet?
Nope. As I never could stand the 3ed. so I see no reason to try a game based on it. And what I have read about the game doesn't interest me at all.
I have plenty of TSR products and a couple of alternative systems to last me a lifetime. And I have little curiosity when I am already satisfied with what I have. If it works why fix it.
Nah, you're just an old grumbling grognard, Jorkens -- admit it!
What are you talking about? I cant see why you would put a label like that one me, just because I prefer outdated role-playing systems, 40's movies, 60's and 70's music, pre-50's general literature, pre-80's fantasy and comic books, vinyl, and the general look of a Foghat member?! And where would you get the idea that I was grumpy! Me, with my ever present smile (hidden by the moustache of course) and continual stream of positivity. Towards my own tastes of course. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2009 : 17:33:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I know. Although, at 32 pages that dragonborn book sounds awfully skimpy anyway.
No more so then some adventures I could think of, and $10 sounds about right these days.
I do not recall saying the price wasn't fair. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 05 May 2009 17:35:56 |
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Baldwin Stonewood
Acolyte
34 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2009 : 03:31:11
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| I've recently, since Dec. 08, started a new campaign that I based out of Crimmor, Amn, using Pathfinder character. I used Ed's write up about the city from Dragon v. 334, which is absolutely fantastic. I think the blend has worked out good so far. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 09:58:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Have some of you scribes not tried Pathfinder yet?
The rules? No need. The setting? It's not the Forgotten Realms.
Well Said Brian, my thoughts entirely.
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Barshevy
Learned Scribe
275 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 10:21:08
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| I'm playing in a few Pathfinder games and I must say that I find the thoughtful detail Paizo has been putting into their setting is strongly reminiscent of the best Forgotten Realms material. So while Pathfinder certainly isn't the Realms, it has some of its spirit. |
The Search for Morn * Combat Spreadsheet * Combat Map * |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 15:15:42
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Well, the setting put out currently by WoTC barely qualifies as the Realms either.
Ah well, I do like the Star Wars Saga products put out by WoTC, so they still get some of my money. Just not that much. More of my cash goes on Paizo and other OGL products these days. |
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edappel
Learned Scribe
Brazil
211 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 18:36:05
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Anyone knows which books will be released next year?
The brotherhood of the Griphon, Realms of Dead, Cycle of Night, Stone of Tymora 3... Anything else? |
--- Ed Appel
*** I'm a brazilian FR fan. So, feel free to correct my writing mistakes to improve my english. |
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Patrakis
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 20:51:45
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I decided to try 4e rules within the old forgotten realms setting. I based a new campaign of mine around keep on the Shadowfell following the guidelines put foth in the dungeon magazine 155. I'm basing the story in 1358, where the time of troubles never happend.
Strangely, after a second reading of the rule set in 4e, i can find myself enjoying the new mechanics. As for the setting, i still cant find a reason to move to Golarion since i still have my books of the old realms. It just suddenly didn't become bad because nobody writes about it anymore.
On the other end, i'm sure i'll convert a couple of pathfinder modules to the realms in the near future.
Pat
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Have some of you scribes not tried Pathfinder yet?
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Dancing is like standing still, but faster.
My site: http://www.patoumonde.com |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 12:28:52
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If I were to start running a game tomorrow, I would most certainly use the Pathfinder rules.
However, although I think the Golarion setting is 'Da Bomb', and has the potential to become the next FR... itt's not FR.
Despite my interst and respect for that new setting 9and the amazing array of talent behind (it), I have to much time invested in FR to just 'jump ship' at this point.
If my next game is not set in FR (pre-4e, of course), then it will be set in a homebrew based heavilly on FR (with a smattring of Golarion and others thrown in).
I'm getting too old to learn a whole 'nother setting at this point, so if I do decide to do it again, it'll be one of my own making, so I never have to worry about some company raining on my parade years from now, when they decide to sell-out to some corporation. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 16:08:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Patrakis
As for the setting, i still cant find a reason to move to Golarion since i still have my books of the old realms. It just suddenly didn't become bad because nobody writes about it anymore.
This is quite true... However, for a lot of people, it has been tainted by what's been done to it. Even if they never bother with the Sellplague, the dislike of that event is so great that it bleeds over. And then, when you think about the setting, no matter what timeframe you think about, you can't help but think about what was done to it. That's how serious a dislike some folks have for the Sellplague.
The other thing is that the Realms is no longer supported. I used to love running to the game store to buy the latest Realms release. Now I will never again be able to do that. The setting is forever stuck at one point, now. When you like to see a setting progressing forward, having it stop is not good. So that's another reason why some people are jumping ship -- Golarion may not be the Realms, but it's a setting that's still growing. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 16:20:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This is quite true... However, for a lot of people, it has been tainted by what's been done to it. Even if they never bother with the Sellplague, the dislike of that event is so great that it bleeds over. And then, when you think about the setting, no matter what timeframe you think about, you can't help but think about what was done to it. That's how serious a dislike some folks have for the Sellplague.
The other thing is that the Realms is no longer supported. I used to love running to the game store to buy the latest Realms release. Now I will never again be able to do that. The setting is forever stuck at one point, now. When you like to see a setting progressing forward, having it stop is not good. So that's another reason why some people are jumping ship -- Golarion may not be the Realms, but it's a setting that's still growing.
One of the annoying side effects of the Spellplauge is that I now hear players that used to not have an opinion one way or another saying that "well, FR needed to have X, Y, and Z happen because it was too crowded and didn't have any room left for adventures."
Once someone goes into a campaign with that idea, its hard to fight against it, true or not. If all of my players were die hard Realms fans that never took any of the 4E complaints about FR seriously, I might not have been as motivated to move settings. But when I have several players that just "play D&D" rather than being especially in love with the setting, and when they are exposed to the design principles that the 4E team have stated, since they play 3.5/Pathfinder and 4E, it becomes a case where I'm fighting a battle before I even start a campaign.
I really feel like one of the biggest mistakes of 4E wasn't any rules changes, it was the fact that the marketing campaign was less "Hey, here is something cool we just created that should give you a fun option that we feel is better than anything we've done before," and more scorched earth, "look at how bad all of this stuff is . . . you don't want to keep playing this do you?" |
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malchor7
Seeker
62 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 18:41:23
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I really don't get this attitude where "the Realms is no longer growing"?
Did the 4e FR novels and the Realms articles on DDI suddenly stop existing?
The only functional difference between the old system (where new realms sourcebooks came out all the time) and the new system (DDI) is transmission and format (hard copy vs. electronic). Now there are certainly faults to the new schema, and I'm not saying I like it better or even the same. You can certainly refuse to subscribe to DDI because you don't like the concept, but you can't claim that WotC is no longer releasing Realms stuff. They are, you're just not buying it, because you don't like the format.
You can't just claim the setting is no longer supported just because *you* don't want to buy into the support that's being offered.
And what about the novels, which are--for the record--my favorite aspect of the setting? They add *nothing* to the Realms? Nonsense!
/rant
(Sorry for that. Love you guys. Keep up the good word!  )
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 18:44:16
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You're totally correct, Malchor. Just because we don't like where the setting is heading, doesn't mean it's not growing.
But, you have to admit also, that new sourcebooks every month or so is a BIG difference from a 500 word article every 3 months. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 18:56:24
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Well, so far most of the DDI articles that have come out have been long articles of game "crunch" such as new powers, feats, and monsters, with a few proper names from the Realms thrown in, and a sidebar that's longer than the Realms "fluff" explaining how you can ignore all of the Realms specific stuff when you use this information in "core." I know, I've been getting the DDI since the beginning.
The articles that aren't as "crunch" heavy have been long articles, not so much about how the Realms is now with the same level of details that it had in previous editions, but rather how much of what we knew about the Realms we knew and loved was actually wrong. To me, that doesn't "grow" the setting, it replaces large aspects of it.
As for the novels . . . some of the new ones may be brilliant and they may reforge the feeling of the Realms, but when there is no way of locking them down in continuity, I just wonder if they will actually ever be considered by the designers of the setting when new articles come out.
There have definitely been FR eras where the novels don't get paid attention to as much as they should have been, which usually meant that fine designers like Eric Boyd had to jump through monumental hoops to make various disparate sources make sense in the grand scheme of things. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 19:30:55
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Well, so far most of the DDI articles that have come out have been long articles of game "crunch" such as new powers, feats, and monsters, with a few proper names from the Realms thrown in, and a sidebar that's longer than the Realms "fluff" explaining how you can ignore all of the Realms specific stuff when you use this information in "core." I know, I've been getting the DDI since the beginning.
The articles that aren't as "crunch" heavy have been long articles, not so much about how the Realms is now with the same level of details that it had in previous editions, but rather how much of what we knew about the Realms we knew and loved was actually wrong. To me, that doesn't "grow" the setting, it replaces large aspects of it.
As for the novels . . . some of the new ones may be brilliant and they may reforge the feeling of the Realms, but when there is no way of locking them down in continuity, I just wonder if they will actually ever be considered by the designers of the setting when new articles come out.
There have definitely been FR eras where the novels don't get paid attention to as much as they should have been, which usually meant that fine designers like Eric Boyd had to jump through monumental hoops to make various disparate sources make sense in the grand scheme of things.
Well-Said, J.R.- That's the post I was about to write. Whilst I no longer support WotC (other than Buying Downshadow, 'cause Ed talked me into it) I'd love to hear what those who are using the new setting think of the recent Realms releases: Are they well-written? Are ANY of the ongoing plots from the 1300's being developed, other than 'Teh Shadez totes pwned everybody- Shar iz kewl'?
I am not expecting them to do anything with extant plotlines, but I'd be pleasantly surprised to hear that they did.
Edit: Having re-read that, it sounds all bitter- but I honestly would like to hear what 4e FR fans think of the new supplements. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 16 May 2009 19:32:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 20:29:07
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As far as I'm concerned, yes, the setting is no longer supported.
As has been pointed out, we went from sourcebooks to a sporadic offering of articles that are widely held to be substandard, and that you can't get unless you buy an entire package of things you may or may not want. My biggest objection to the DDI isn't the format, and it's not the fact that it's all 4E -- though both of those are a factor. My objection is that even though all I want is Realmslore, I can not buy just the articles. No, I have to buy two entire "magazines" full of content I don't want, and a character builder I don't want, and an index I don't want that tells me what book to look in. Before, when I wanted a Realms article that was in Dragon, I bought just that one issue, and there was other stuff in there that I could enjoy. The digital magazines are a shadow of what the print magazines were, and both of them together don't match the content or quality of what we had before. The only choice I have is to buy two "magazines" and everything else, just to get one article, or not buy anything at all.
Before 4E, we had (at various times) sourcebooks, articles in magazines, novels, modules, supplements, boxed sets, and free web content. Now we have novels and web content that isn't free... And that occasional web article -- tossed out as a sop to all of those fans they've casually brushed aside -- is certainly not a match for a sourcebook.
Of the two post-4E novels I've read, I've found it difficult to separate the story from the setting. Since I hate what's been done to the Realms, it affects my reading of the novels. Even if I wasn't actively boycotting everything 4E, I'd not buy these novels, because I simply can't enjoy them the way I enjoyed older novels.
The setting I enjoyed is no longer supported. The thing masquerading as that setting is receiving only negligible support. The Realms is now a dead setting, and I don't think it's going to be all that long before WotC stops pretending otherwise. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 20:45:36
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There is only one thing I will point out . . . they will "support" FR since its their organized play campaign, and they have stated that they have no interest in trying to shift organized play each year to the "current" supported campaign. On the other hand, I have watched the LFR games at the FLGS, and I've talked to players in LFR, and the adventures are much like the articles cited above . . . very little that draws on previous lore or the depth of the setting other than some proper names.
I cringe at the "everything is official unless we say otherwise" stance of the RPGA, though, especially when new "core" Eberron material comes out. There are already LFR Warforged all over the place, from what I've heard, with no official explanation, because the Warforged article in Dragon was never tagged as "unavailable" to LFR play. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2009 : 16:02:15
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Right.
According to the LFR guys, tons of new FR material is constantly being developed... but you have to be in the LFR to access it.
However, whenever I am able to question anyone 'official', they respond with "FR will be supported by articles in the DDi".... and they never mention the LFR (they did during the 'preview period', but stopped mentioning the LFR after the setting hit the shelves).
Most peculiar. Its almost as if the only guys who consider the LFR stuff canon are the LFR guys. Considering the designers can just toss-out anything they don't like (and use whatever they do), I would consider it quasi-canon at best. Until WotC puts it into a printed source (something impossible as of right now) or the DDi, it's really just glorified homebrew.
Anyhow, I understand the articles are getting better (I wouldn't personally know), although they are still very generic in flavor (even the FR-specific ones). I also had the pleasure of reading Swordmage (I won it), and as much as I didn't want to, I really enjoyed it. It was what I want out of an FR novel - an intersting tale about a cool character that effects very little outside of the area he is in, while also inccluding lots of juicy bits about the locale (lore is always a good thing). I've read one other 4e novel, and I have to say I enjoyed Swordmage more, but only because I didn't feel like I was having my nose rubbed in 4e every other page. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 May 2009 16:04:25 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2009 : 16:39:48
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I really wanted to enjoy the two 4E novels I read -- I wanted to enjoy them as much as I've enjoyed some of the novels prior to 4E. And I did enjoy the tales. But I could not enjoy them as much as the prior books, because every time there was a reference to something 4E, it threw me right out of the story. I hate what's been done to the setting so vehemently that even an oblique reference is enough to remind me of it.
And keep in mind, I'm one of the more moderate people when it comes to disliking what WotC has done...
I think when 4E Eberron comes out, all we'll be getting after that is novels, and I think those will slowly dry up, too. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2009 : 16:57:08
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I'm pretty sure the LFR modules are reviewed by Novels and R&D just like anything else. And the NPCs, monsters, and magic items presented in the LFR modules are in the DDI right there beside everything else. And the LFR gets a monthly Dragon article and a "top level tab" on the homepage, equal billing with the magazines and features.
Christopher
(who DMed an LFR adventure set in the High Forest just yesterday, as it happens)
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2009 : 18:08:13
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Looking at the LFR forums, it would seem that practically everything is legal. Which is interesting, to say the least. Yay for Warforged Artificers walking around Waterdeep.
Much of the LFR 'lore' seems to fall into the category of mostly harmless to the overall world. Nice bunch of well meaning people making some adventures for the world. Hardly counts as a lot of lore though. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2009 : 18:16:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Nice bunch of well meaning people making some adventures for the world.
And hooray for that! |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2009 : 20:35:55
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Sure, adventures are good. But given the nature of them, it's hard for fluff to be put into them in a meaningful way. I mean, the LFR modules are 4 hour adventures meant to be run at conventions, for a group that has perhaps never met each other before.
Put it this way. If the only things being put out for Pathfinder were the Pathfinder Society modules, it'd be odd to call that product line supported (at least in a meaningful way). Same with Star Wars Saga and it's Dawn of Defiance adventure line.
A supported setting, for me, means products in print, be it physical product or on another media. The Realms lacks that now, except for novels (and that's if you accept that the 4th Edition Realms is similar in anyway to the previous setting, a premise I don't personally accept). |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2009 : 21:14:42
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It's been my experience that there's fluff to be found in the LFR modules--at least those I've read (about twenty-five).
As for products being in print, across various media platforms, well, what folks think should count varies, of course. My bibliography of 4E Realms materials, which is always incomplete, lists over 80 products totaling almost 5000 pages of material. If you want to take out the LFR modules, it's still over 30 products (novels, short stories, articles, modules, "bound" RPG products) and over 3000 pages. And it's only been a year, with more coming every month.
No reason for another round-and-round, of course. Those are just quantitative statements (in the second paragraph, I mean).
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2009 : 01:22:18
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Fluff that by the very nature of the medium it's presented in is limited and 'fan' made. (Of course, in my view, it's fluff made for the Pseudo-Realms, rather then the Realms.)
Now then, out of that 3000 pages, how many are in novels? I'd be surprised if it's less then 2000. Other then that, well, there aren't going to be any more print products, only poor quality articles online (Zhent Headless Horseman, anyone?)
Hardly fills me with confidence that the setting is getting supported, beyond being a novel setting. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2009 : 01:33:19
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Sure, sure. Probably more like 2500 at a guess--I'm not at the computer that's got the document on it. That's always been the case, though, hasn't it (in terms of ratios and percentages, I mean)?
I think pretty much every Realms product is fan made. I know the ones I'm making are. That said, the authors of the LFR modules do get paid for their work--as much as for some short stories I've published, in fact.
No more print products. We'll see.
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 18 May 2009 01:34:36 |
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Wizard's 2010 releases
