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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2009 :  15:41:38  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Are the Seven Senators and the Mayor of Reth described anywhere? Are they given canonical names in any Realms-product?

For that matter, where can I find information on Reth aside from the old Vilhon Reach supplement and the 3.0 FRCS?

I know that the Scions of Arrabar trilogy mentions one of the Seven Senators, possibly two, but I can't remember their names. And novels are not known for their indexes.

One of them is an imposter sent to infiltrate Reth.

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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2009 :  15:50:44  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I cant think of anything. In general there is little to be found in other products concerning the areas covered in the Vilhon Reach supplement.
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe

933 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2009 :  15:53:38  Show Profile  Visit Arion Elenim's Homepage Send Arion Elenim a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My favorite of the Seven Senators was always Grumpy.

Wait....

My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2009 :  15:54:25  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim

My favorite of the Seven Senators was always Grumpy.

Wait....



I thought that was my nickname.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2009 :  16:03:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pg.53, Old Empires

Not much there either - just a couple of paragraphs.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Apr 2009 16:04:01
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2009 :  16:37:36  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The consensus is therefore that no Senator of Reth has been named in any official product apart from the Scions of Arrabar trilogy?

I was thinking about the fact that Fzoul sent an emissary to build a temple to Xvim (Bane now, I assume) there and expected to bring the city under the heel of the Zhentarim shortly.

I expect there is now a large temple to Bane in Reth and that at least some of the Senators are more or less willing pawns of the Zhents and the church.

Given that my players own a warehouse and an office there and employ two locals (a factor and a mercentary recruiter), I'm sure they'd be interested if there was any overt sign of Zhentish influence. They're having enough trouble with Emerald Enclave fanatics disrupting their logging trade without having to fight a trade war with the Zhentarim in a city where the Zhents have official backing.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2010 :  08:09:30  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll be writing up my own Seven Senators (reigning in the beginning of 1373 DR) soon, as my players will visit Reth again during next session*.

Now, what do I particularly have to keep in mind?

One Senator was a character in the Scions of Arrabar story, it is true, and another was described as being the father of a character. That's two at least somewhat accounted for.

It is at least likely that all the Senators are local men of important and old families, with considerable personal wealth. This suggests that they'd be merchants, probably of old Chondathan families, but some might have a Chessentan background as well.

Most probably see the post as a way to further their own business interests. To that end, though, many may have contacts among those foreign powers interested in Reth. Arrabar, after all, had one of the Senators (theoretically) in its pocket and it makes sense that anyone who wants to unify Chessenta, for example, would try to do the same.

The Zhentarim and the Church of Bane had orders, at least, to try to infiltrate the government of Reth. How well they did is anyone's guess.

The Mayor is obviously elected by the people of the city, but how are the autocratic Senators chosen? Elected for life? Co-opted by other Senators?

I find co-option plausible and it also fits the dichotomy of freely elected Mayor versus the autocratic Senators.

What do scribes think are the most important political issues in Reth?

There's relations with the Emerald Enclave, obviously, which will play a role in the logging and fishing industries.

There's foreign policy, whether to be isolationist or to seek allies to defend them from Arrabar's grasping schemes. Or, of course, to actively seek unification with Arrabar and work toward a greater Chondath.

Defence, of course. Whether to build fortifications and a strong local defence or whether the security of Reth might not be better insured by a more proactive role. A strong navy would be in a position to control access to the Vilhon Reach and even a peaceful Reth could benefit from naval might. And, of course, geographically, it would seem natural for Reth and Hlath to band together in a realm which extended from sea to the River Nun in the south and was bordered by the Akanapeaks in the east.

What precisely are the fields each Senator is responsible for?

Somehow, I seem to recall the seven below, but I can't figure out where I got them. Also, it seems superflous to have both Trade and Business, unless, perhaps, one is meant to represent foreign trade and the other local businesses?

Public Works
Defence
Trade
Games
Business
Justice
Foreign Relations

Can anyone identify where this list might come from and whether it is correct?

*Which doesn't take place until September, our time, due to their work-related absences.

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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2010 :  13:58:34  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That list is from Vilhon Reach, and like MT said check Old Empires, it mentions the leader of the merchant council, Murzig Hekkatayn. I think they are all elected, and the Senators are like a ''Closed Council''. Political issues are the separation from Chessenta (Tchazzar), enmity with Airspur, the distrust of Hlath (after Yrkethep), the Akanapeaks orcs, Zhents, pirates, druids, Eles Wianar, war refugees, plague, zombies etc.

Dwonlar Aphorio is the Senator of Defense in the novels.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2010 :  22:14:06  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quale

That list is from Vilhon Reach, and like MT said check Old Empires, it mentions the leader of the merchant council, Murzig Hekkatayn. I think they are all elected, and the Senators are like a ''Closed Council''. Political issues are the separation from Chessenta (Tchazzar), enmity with Airspur, the distrust of Hlath (after Yrkethep), the Akanapeaks orcs, Zhents, pirates, druids, Eles Wianar, war refugees, plague, zombies etc.

Dwonlar Aphorio is the Senator of Defense in the novels.


Thank you very much. A heroic effort which answered all my questions, in so far as they can be, of course.

Now, does anyone know how the disrepancies in the 2e Old Empires and The Vilhon Reach supplements were resolved?

Reth is described as Chessentan in the first and Chondathan in the second.

We know that 902 DR Reth became independent from Chondath. Can it simply be that some time after DR 922, Tchazzar or his armies conquered Reth and it regained its independence sometime before DR 1117?

That would be my prefered solution, I suppose, but I wonder if there is any canon answer.

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2010 :  22:27:49  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Icelander,

Not to toot any horn or anything; but there is another serious power group in the area of Reth that you might want to either pit your party against or have them work with...hell, it could be both in the same gaming session really:

The She-Wolves Mercenary Company and, by default, the Nation of Ixinos.

If you haven't checked it out yet, maybe you could here at Candlekeep.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11767

If you just want to skip the thread and the pages, you can go over to here:

honkin' big link


(MODS: that is some nasty linkage...and I can't fix it!)

HawkinstheDM is being nice enough to host it.

I would dare say that your party would find LOTS of aid against the Banites if they approach the Lady Warriors in a safe fashion.

Mod edit: Casts shrinky links

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Aug 2010 23:56:06
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2010 :  23:47:13  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Hey Icelander,

Not to toot any horn or anything; but there is another serious power group in the area of Reth that you might want to either pit your party against or have them work with...hell, it could be both in the same gaming session really:

I think the PCs would want to stay far away from Ixinos if they possibly can. That is, if they have even heard of it.

What are the chances that someone who has sailed between the Pirate Isles and Reth for several years would know about Ixinos and what, if anything, would he know?

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I would dare say that your party would find LOTS of aid against the Banites if they approach the Lady Warriors in a safe fashion.


Yes, but the PCs might prefer the Banites. Both are slavers, fanatics and killers, but at least one party doesn't conceal it under hypocritical pretences.

The PCs can do business with nearly any group of essentially self-interested people in the Realms, but fanatics worry them*. Especially self-righteous fanatics who enslave people like them on principle.

*Rightly so, in my opinion. Such power groups as the Zhentarim and the Rundeen can have a profitable and comfortable trading relationship with someone their whole lives without anything happening to upset it, as long as it remains mutually beneficial.

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2010 :  00:13:55  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

I think the PCs would want to stay far away from Ixinos if they possibly can. That is, if they have even heard of it.

What are the chances that someone who has sailed between the Pirate Isles and Reth for several years would know about Ixinos and what, if anything, would he know?


Any Pirate in the Sea of Fallen Stars knows well about Ixinos...though what he says may not be true. For ages the Pirates have targeted Ixinos...and not just in my own writings. She She-Wolves Mercenary Company (mentioned in Gold and Glory by TSR) has a long standing feud against Pirates...and male Tyrants in general.

quote:

Yes, but the PCs might prefer the Banites. Both are slavers, fanatics and killers, but at least one party doesn't conceal it under hypocritical pretences.

The PCs can do business with nearly any group of essentially self-interested people in the Realms, but fanatics worry them*. Especially self-righteous fanatics who enslave people like them on principle.

*Rightly so, in my opinion. Such power groups as the Zhentarim and the Rundeen can have a profitable and comfortable trading relationship with someone their whole lives without anything happening to upset it, as long as it remains mutually beneficial.



I can full well understand that the Lady Warriors are not a first choice...or even a second choice...for an ally; however, if faced with someone across a bargaining table, it is always best to have an extra large chip to play.

I don't know the makeup of your group...but if there is even one female among them she might well have a solid chance of gaining an extra bit of muscle (in the form of the She-Wolves) for the group if they ever butt heads with another group that the Ixinosans are already in the mood to not like!

On the other hand...if the party makes nice with the Banites in trade (which isn't a bad idea if your morals point you in that direction) then you could use the Lady Warriors as an enemy in the area! They hate Pirates with a vengeance, Banites nearly as much (the whole male dominance thing) and could really be more scary than a Banite! Where a Banite might be able to be bribed to not enslave you, the Ixinosans don't put much value in money...and a life working a mine or farm on their island isn't the greatest adventure in the world!

I honestly plan to use the Ixinosans in my new 1st Edition game (if it ever gets started) as antagonists to the party. The party might book passage, CHEAP passage, on a ship they have no idea is actually a Pirate vessel down on its luck. Sailing along, suddenly there is a trio of vessels spotted and the crew freaks out and begins to wail and moan about certain death if the Pirate Ship can't outrun the "She Devils of Ixinos!"

Could be fun.

EDIT: even more fun...the She-Wolves and some EXTRA Ixinosans attack Reth in retribution for some deed against them contrived by one of the Councilors! Always lots of fun with some barbaric women wanting the testicles of all men as tobacco pouches!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Edited by - Dalor Darden on 05 Aug 2010 00:15:09
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2010 :  21:29:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Now, does anyone know how the disrepancies in the 2e Old Empires and The Vilhon Reach supplements were resolved?

Reth is described as Chessentan in the first and Chondathan in the second.

We know that 902 DR Reth became independent from Chondath. Can it simply be that some time after DR 922, Tchazzar or his armies conquered Reth and it regained its independence sometime before DR 1117?

That would be my prefered solution, I suppose, but I wonder if there is any canon answer.

That sounds like a fine solution to me.

There may be a canon solution in the Realms FAQ hosted here at the keep - check the main page. I've fond quite a bit of useful errata there involving geography. The L-list is another good source for such 'fixes'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2010 :  07:59:01  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That sounds like a fine solution to me.

There may be a canon solution in the Realms FAQ hosted here at the keep - check the main page. I've fond quite a bit of useful errata there involving geography. The L-list is another good source for such 'fixes'.


I didn't see any canon answer and will proceed on the assumption that this best fits the available evidence. It also allows for mixing Chessentan and Chondathan cultures to create something a uniquely Rethan culture.

Both Chessenta and Chondath are famous for mercenaries. Does anyone know whether those mercenaries specialise in some form of combat style or have particular weapons that they are likely to be good with?

In the real world, various areas were famous as the sources for hired warriors specialising in certain skills. This seems likely to be true for the Realms as well.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6648 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2010 :  08:11:56  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I didn't see any canon answer and will proceed on the assumption that this best fits the available evidence. It also allows for mixing Chessentan and Chondathan cultures to create something a uniquely Rethan culture.

Both Chessenta and Chondath are famous for mercenaries. Does anyone know whether those mercenaries specialise in some form of combat style or have particular weapons that they are likely to be good with?

In the real world, various areas were famous as the sources for hired warriors specialising in certain skills. This seems likely to be true for the Realms as well.



As I recall, Eric Boyd mused quite a bit about Reth in the work-up for "Cloak & Dagger". I'll try and dig up my notes and see if there is anything there.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe

USA
624 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2010 :  16:16:36  Show Profile Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the topic of Senators: If you want to evoke the feel of the Roman Senate in Reth, (which, since Chessenta is a sort of Greek analogue, isn't that far off the mark) an interesting point about Roman Senators is that they were forbidden to engage in business or trade of any sort. It was considered an unsenatorial practice and could result in the Senator being disbarred. As such, all their money came from land ownership, which led to an interesting conundrum: Since male children had to be given land (and enough to pass the Wealth test to enter the Senate, at that), it was customary for young Senatorial men to marry girls of wealthy merchant houses with large dowries to enable the purchase of yet more land. In faerun, this could include female adventurers, making any female party members the target of amorous Senatorial youths, as well as love-philters and spells.

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2010 :  05:14:43  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
As I recall, Eric Boyd mused quite a bit about Reth in the work-up for "Cloak & Dagger". I'll try and dig up my notes and see if there is anything there.

-- George Krashos



Thank you. That would be great.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2010 :  07:14:49  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate

On the topic of Senators: If you want to evoke the feel of the Roman Senate in Reth, (which, since Chessenta is a sort of Greek analogue, isn't that far off the mark) an interesting point about Roman Senators is that they were forbidden to engage in business or trade of any sort. It was considered an unsenatorial practice and could result in the Senator being disbarred. As such, all their money came from land ownership, which led to an interesting conundrum: Since male children had to be given land (and enough to pass the Wealth test to enter the Senate, at that), it was customary for young Senatorial men to marry girls of wealthy merchant houses with large dowries to enable the purchase of yet more land. In faerun, this could include female adventurers, making any female party members the target of amorous Senatorial youths, as well as love-philters and spells.


While interesting, this is somewhat unlikely in light of what we already know.

Canonically, the Seven Senators are 'merchants', which to me at least, rules out the possibility of them being forbidden to engage in commerce.

Add to that, the two Senators we've heard about in Realmslore are both noted as living and working in the city and having jobs other than 'landowner'. There's, obviously, Dwonlar Aphorio who is a powerful wizard and then there is the father of the main's character's 'friend' in the Scions of Arrabar's series who was noted, IIRC, as being involved in trading of some sort.

No, I think it is far more likely that these men will be, like Sembian or Chondathan merchant lords, a mixture of 'old money' and vulgarly rich men of more recent origins. The fact that someone who constructed for himself a new identity in Reth and it took him only about a decade to become a Senator suggests that other factors may be more important than how established they are in the community. I will, of course, assume that Dwonlar Aphorio had massive support in the form of magic, funds and contacts from Arrabar; but even so, the fact that he made it onto the seven man ruling council in a decade or so suggests that Banites, Zhents, the Emerald Enclave, Airspur, Cimbar or Turmish might not be all that far from getting one of their own onto there (at least one of these groups is very like to have done so, if not more).

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