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Herkles
Seeker
82 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 05:33:00
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I have been looking for information on Arcane Archers, or what is close to them. I so far haven't been able to find much lore upon them. I believe one of the characters in Rich baker's series The last Mythral deals with one, but yet I can not find much information or lore, weather fan made or cannon, though I am looking for cannon. About the closet thing I found to the Arcane Archer is the, Justice of Wield and Woe, Though I do not know much about them other then are supposed to serve the Eldrath Valathuu.
IF anyone has any lore on Arcane archery,here is some info on the class from wizards. as well as lore about the Justices.
Thank you sages, for you assistance.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 14:25:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Herkles
About the closet thing I found to the Arcane Archer is the, Justice of Wield and Woe, Though I do not know much about them other then are supposed to serve the Eldrath Valathuu.
I wasn't happy with the Justice of Weald and Woe PrC. It's a good class, but -- as you said -- they tied it to the Eldreth Veluthra. Though the class is a good fit for them, I see no reason why it can't be tweaked for any elven group. A lot of the PrCs in that book were like that: closely tied to one group, but easily tweaked and workable for a large number of groups. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 15:06:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Herkles
I have been looking for information on Arcane Archers, or what is close to them. I so far haven't been able to find much lore upon them. I believe one of the characters in Rich baker's series The last Mythral deals with one, but yet I can not find much information or lore, weather fan made or cannon, though I am looking for cannon. About the closet thing I found to the Arcane Archer is the, Justice of Wield and Woe, Though I do not know much about them other then are supposed to serve the Eldrath Valathuu.
IF anyone has any lore on Arcane archery,here is some info on the class from wizards. as well as lore about the Justices.
Thank you sages, for you assistance.
-The Arcane Archer is a "core" Prestige Class. It exists (obviously) in the setting, but there isn't any lore concerning "how" it came to be in Faerūn, or "why", and so on. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 15:08:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I wasn't happy with the Justice of Weald and Woe PrC. It's a good class, but -- as you said -- they tied it to the Eldreth Veluthra. Though the class is a good fit for them, I see no reason why it can't be tweaked for any elven group. A lot of the PrCs in that book were like that: closely tied to one group, but easily tweaked and workable for a large number of groups.
-I'd rather have mechanics in Forgotten Realms sourcebooks that actually pertain to the setting, as opposed to being general, and "wasting space" in a Forgotten Realms sourcebook that could be used for something Forgotten Realms specific. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 15:41:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I wasn't happy with the Justice of Weald and Woe PrC. It's a good class, but -- as you said -- they tied it to the Eldreth Veluthra. Though the class is a good fit for them, I see no reason why it can't be tweaked for any elven group. A lot of the PrCs in that book were like that: closely tied to one group, but easily tweaked and workable for a large number of groups.
-I'd rather have mechanics in Forgotten Realms sourcebooks that actually pertain to the setting, as opposed to being general, and "wasting space" in a Forgotten Realms sourcebook that could be used for something Forgotten Realms specific.
Well, I understand what you're saying. But I think you're missing my point. While the PrC is a great one for the Eldreth Veluuthra, I don't see why it's exclusive to them. Elves in Faerūn have plenty of enemies -- this PrC could be used against any of them. A Tethyrian elf could use it against anyone who comes into their woods. An elf of Cormanthyr could use it against Zhents. An elf of the North could use it against orcs. And so on.
The flavor of the PrC is that it can only be used for killing humans, but it doesn't make any sense that no elves before the EV thought of having snipers.
I'm honestly inclined to think that the PrC was dreamed up independent of any groups or sourcebooks, and when Champions of Ruin was being written, they grabbed it and tweaked it so they'd have another evil PrC to put in there. Other than the description of it being an EV class, there's nothing inherently evil about it. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 15:56:40
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-It's used specifically by the Eldreth Veluuthra, taught only by the Eldreth Veluuthra, for members of the Eldreth Veluuthra*. The same way all of those Harper prestige classes can fit any number of any other organizations or character archetypes, but are specific to the Harpers, because the Harpers are the only ones who teach those PrCs, for members of the Harpers.
-Ultimatley, a person can hand-wave away any restrictions, requirements, and all of that, but an Eldreth Veluuthra-specific PrC doesn't bother me any more than Harper-specific PrCs, or Thayvian-specific PrCs, or Zhent-specific PrCs, and so on.
* Though, the requirements don't list that, specifically (needing to be a member of the Eldreth Veluuthra). But, people've got to use their heads. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 09 Feb 2009 15:57:03 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 16:38:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-It's used specifically by the Eldreth Veluuthra, taught only by the Eldreth Veluuthra, for members of the Eldreth Veluuthra*. The same way all of those Harper prestige classes can fit any number of any other organizations or character archetypes, but are specific to the Harpers, because the Harpers are the only ones who teach those PrCs, for members of the Harpers.
-Ultimatley, a person can hand-wave away any restrictions, requirements, and all of that, but an Eldreth Veluuthra-specific PrC doesn't bother me any more than Harper-specific PrCs, or Thayvian-specific PrCs, or Zhent-specific PrCs, and so on.
* Though, the requirements don't list that, specifically (needing to be a member of the Eldreth Veluuthra). But, people've got to use their heads.
A PrC being linked only to one organization doesn't bother me, as long as it's something that most other organizations can't or wouldn't use. No one else could make something like a Harper PrC, for example, because the Harpers have deific blessings.
But the Justice of Weald and Woe is essentially an elven sniper. And that's something any group of elves could use -- hells, just about any race could use a sniper. If the class focused more on killing humans, with abilities that were specifically keyed to humans, and if the class used methods other than being a sniper, then I'd have no problem with it being just limited to the EV.
But since the class is just a glorified sniper, I see no reason for it to be limited to them. Especially since elves have been around for so long, and have had so many enemies. They've spent millenia killing orcs, goblins, dragons, humans, and each other -- in all that time, with all that combat, no one else thought about specialized sniper training? |
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Herkles
Seeker
82 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 17:16:45
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That is an interesting concept wooly, I did take a look through my friends Champions of Ruin recently, and I wondered about it myself. I So I assume the Justice, would be an elven archer guard dedicated to defending the elves against their foes.
I do wish though to know more about arcane archery, is there any traditions of spell archers? using archery and the arcane together that I can look at. Or is most of the lore on the arcane archer class not detailed in the realms? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 18:04:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Herkles
That is an interesting concept wooly, I did take a look through my friends Champions of Ruin recently, and I wondered about it myself. I So I assume the Justice, would be an elven archer guard dedicated to defending the elves against their foes.
I do wish though to know more about arcane archery, is there any traditions of spell archers? using archery and the arcane together that I can look at. Or is most of the lore on the arcane archer class not detailed in the realms?
I honestly don't know of any FR-specific Arcane Archer lore... A lot of the classes/PrCs from 3.x don't have much FR-specific lore. Some are obvious extrapolations of existing classes, and go start there.
If I was making up my own Arcane Archer lore, I'd start with Evereska. That's one place that we already know has both a school for warriors and a school for mages. I would imagine Evermeet does, as well, but I'm not recalling any off the top of my head.
So I'd start by putting a training program there, perhaps a small facility co-run by the two main schools. That gives you the modern place for training.
For going back in history, I'd have arcane archers going way back -- to at least the Crown Wars, if not before. One realm likely developed them before all the others, but then the others copied the idea, with their own methods and specializations.
Myth Drannor likely had such a school, too.
I'd also have a lot of the training done by individual masters, outside of a school. The Realms of 1375 only has a handful of places where there are enough elves to have such a school, so it makes sense that elves outside those areas are going to learn from masters that live nearby. |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 21:22:01
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I echo Wooly's thoughts. I'm not sure just how many arcane archers there are on Evermeet, but Last Mythal does refer to the woman whose name escapes me as a "captain of the spellarchers", and apparently a military figure of reasonably high standing, so it's likely there's a mediocre sized spellarcher force on Evermeet: large enough to have various captains, but small enough to be prestigeous. And it is a challenging art that requires many levels to excel in, after all.
The theme I like to communicate when it comes to bladesingers is the struggle to promote a waning tradition whose glory days are long gone. The same goes for AAs. There are no large elven realms on Faerun, apart from Evereska, and therefore there are few bladesingers and arcane archers outside the city, as well. The greatest secrets of the arts are under threat of extinction, and I would reflect that in the role-play.
To follow the Justice of Weald and Woe tangent a bit still: funnily enough, the Eldreth Veluuthra are one of the few elves that the PrC doesn't work for: the Justice gains divine spells, and Eldreth Veluuthra have no divine support. So strictly speaking EV shouldn't be able to take the PrC that's specifically attributed to them. Ironic? Champions of Ruin makes the mistake of claiming they've learned to cast divine spells from nature itself, but I think most agree it's a mistake. So yeah, the PrC would definetely work for other elves too, and much better than it does for the EV. |
Edited by - IronAngel on 09 Feb 2009 21:22:49 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 22:48:39
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that elf woman is the current Coronal of Myth Drannor, and yes I think her name escapes everyone.........
anyway, I dislike both of those two prcs, the justice of weald and woe and the Arcane Archer, the AA never made since to me on its requirements, especially since it doesnt give a +1 at every odd level spell casting progression, which without it makes its imbue arrow worthless.
and the justice, well, its just a ranged assassin prc, and there are better archery prcs out there.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 01:59:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A PrC being linked only to one organization doesn't bother me, as long as it's something that most other organizations can't or wouldn't use. No one else could make something like a Harper PrC, for example, because the Harpers have deific blessings.
But the Justice of Weald and Woe is essentially an elven sniper. And that's something any group of elves could use -- hells, just about any race could use a sniper. If the class focused more on killing humans, with abilities that were specifically keyed to humans, and if the class used methods other than being a sniper, then I'd have no problem with it being just limited to the EV.
But since the class is just a glorified sniper, I see no reason for it to be limited to them. Especially since elves have been around for so long, and have had so many enemies. They've spent millenia killing orcs, goblins, dragons, humans, and each other -- in all that time, with all that combat, no one else thought about specialized sniper training?
-None of the alternatives are Justices of Weald and Woe, specifically. They are other, similar things. Only the Eldreth Veluuthra can train others in that way. You can have a PrC, the..."Evereskan Hunter Sniper", have it do all of the same things and such and such and such, but it's not a Justice of Weald and Woe. It's a Evereskan Hunter Sniper.
-The NYPD and the LAPD can have exactly identical training formats for cadets. When cadets graduate, those trained by the NYPD are NYPD police officers, and those trained by the LAPD are LAPD police officers. Even though they have the same exact training, they are two separate organizations- an NYPD officer can not graduate from the LAPD academy and a LAPD officer can not graduate from the NYPD academy. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 05:39:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A PrC being linked only to one organization doesn't bother me, as long as it's something that most other organizations can't or wouldn't use. No one else could make something like a Harper PrC, for example, because the Harpers have deific blessings.
But the Justice of Weald and Woe is essentially an elven sniper. And that's something any group of elves could use -- hells, just about any race could use a sniper. If the class focused more on killing humans, with abilities that were specifically keyed to humans, and if the class used methods other than being a sniper, then I'd have no problem with it being just limited to the EV.
But since the class is just a glorified sniper, I see no reason for it to be limited to them. Especially since elves have been around for so long, and have had so many enemies. They've spent millenia killing orcs, goblins, dragons, humans, and each other -- in all that time, with all that combat, no one else thought about specialized sniper training?
-None of the alternatives are Justices of Weald and Woe, specifically. They are other, similar things. Only the Eldreth Veluuthra can train others in that way. You can have a PrC, the..."Evereskan Hunter Sniper", have it do all of the same things and such and such and such, but it's not a Justice of Weald and Woe. It's a Evereskan Hunter Sniper.
-The NYPD and the LAPD can have exactly identical training formats for cadets. When cadets graduate, those trained by the NYPD are NYPD police officers, and those trained by the LAPD are LAPD police officers. Even though they have the same exact training, they are two separate organizations- an NYPD officer can not graduate from the LAPD academy and a LAPD officer can not graduate from the NYPD academy.
So you're saying it's preferrable to have 15 elven sniper PrCs that are identical, rather than open up the membership of just one? That's... I don't know how to respond to that.
My point is that if you take out the whole backstory of the Eldreth Veluuthra, there is nothing about the Prestige Class that has any obvious connection to them. In essence, the abilities and mechanics of the PrC have absolutely nothing to do with the lore for the PrC. The two are bolted together, and it's not a good fit. That's why I feel the lore is flawed.
You said earlier that you want the mechanics to pertain to the setting. The mechanics of this class do not pertain to the setting. The mechanics of the class are utterly generic. The mechanics of the class could be a core PrC, rather than a setting-specific one. Why does a group that hates humans not have any special ability to kill them? And why does a race that has often been beset by enemies not have a more widely-spread version of this class?
The word "human" does not appear anywhere in the class features or in the discussion of the class's abilities. And yet this is a PrC invented by and exclusive to human-haters?
I want the same thing you say you want. I'm pointing to a place where it does not exist, and you are arguing that it does. |
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Ffaelfarrin
Acolyte
Germany
4 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 13:18:11
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
that elf woman is the current Coronal of Myth Drannor, and yes I think her name escapes everyone.........
Ilsevele Miritar (sp?).
She's an arcane archer and was named coronal of Myth Drannor with the ruler's blade.
quote:
Originally posted by Herkles
IF anyone has any lore on Arcane archery [...] [/i]
I think you cood look up some kind of elven knightly orders from seldarine who favor the bow as weapon. I could imagein that you find some stuff there [maybe FaP + web enhancement]
IIRC there's also an arcane archer (though i do not remember if it was a male or female) in the Return of the archwizards trilogy.
All I recall now without having my books with me is that I think AA's are trained in all those warrior schools (e.g. Academy of sword and arms in Evereska, same goes for Evermeet)
For me personally AA's dont have the same tradition as bladesingers (were there AA's in 2nd edition already?) as I think them to first achieve accomplishments in the art of magic (while having a tendency to practice their aim whith bow and arrow now and then) and then dabble into the martial training with the bow.
But ofc I could be terribly wrong...
As a side note: I dislike the 3.0 AA, too. There are some quite nice "upgraded" 3.5 versions in the web with some spell progression which makes them an equal to the tradition-laden(sp?) bladesinger. |
- Ffaelfarrin Cirwaithreier, Bladesinger, born in the Year of the Guardian (1105) |
Edited by - Ffaelfarrin on 10 Feb 2009 13:21:22 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 16:42:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So you're saying it's preferrable to have 15 elven sniper PrCs that are identical, rather than open up the membership of just one? That's... I don't know how to respond to that.
-Yes. A Justice of Weald and Woe is a specific thing that is taught by the Eldreth Veluuthra. An "Everekan Battle Sniper" is a specific thing taught by the protectors of Evereska. The protectors of Evereska cannot teach someone how to be a Justice of Weald and Woe. They can only teach someone how to be an Evereskan Battle Sniper. The Eldreth Veluuthra cannot teach someone how to be an Evereskan Battle Sniper. They can only teach someone how to be a Jusice of Weald and Woe. Do I want to see a book that has 15 identical prestige classes, all of them from different organizations or places, or whatever else? No. Do I understand that every thing has it's own objective definition, and as such, can look and do the same exact things, but be inherently different? Yes.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My point is that if you take out the whole backstory of the Eldreth Veluuthra, there is nothing about the Prestige Class that has any obvious connection to them. In essence, the abilities and mechanics of the PrC have absolutely nothing to do with the lore for the PrC. The two are bolted together, and it's not a good fit. That's why I feel the lore is flawed.
-Understood, and it is a flawed prestige class, because as I noted earlier, membership in the Eldreth Veluuthra isn't even one of the requirements needed to take the class. That said, however, the point still remains: Canon states that the Eldreth Veluuthra teaches others how to be Justices of Weald and Woe. No one else. Thus, something that does exactly what this PrC does, but is trained by some group other than the Eldreth Veluuthra, at the end of the day, is not a Justice of Weald and Woe, but something similar. As I demonstrated in my analogy, an NYPD officer is not a LAPD officer.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You said earlier that you want the mechanics to pertain to the setting. The mechanics of this class do not pertain to the setting. The mechanics of the class are utterly generic. The mechanics of the class could be a core PrC, rather than a setting-specific one. Why does a group that hates humans not have any special ability to kill them? And why does a race that has often been beset by enemies not have a more widely-spread version of this class?
-The Justice of Weald and Woe is a PrC that is taught by the Eldreth Veluuthra. There is the connection to make the PrC pertain to the setting. Unlike, say, the Divine Seeker, which is generic and has no specific reason why it is in a Forgotten Realms book, as opposed to a more general book, like Complete Divine, which came out much later. I don't want class features like, "Mystra's Grace", or "Born in Evereska", or things like that, in order for the PrC (or spell, or item, etc.) to be included in a Forgotten Realms book. I want some information to justify it being in a Forgotten Realms book- "flavor text" is enough.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The word "human" does not appear anywhere in the class features or in the discussion of the class's abilities. And yet this is a PrC invented by and exclusive to human-haters?
-The mechanics of the class are more or less fine as they are. The text says that the PrC is one that removes other creatures in an unsavory way- and that those who need to be removed are very regularly Human. I'd, as I said before, include membership in the Eldreth Veluuthra in the PrC requirements, and give the PrC the Ranger's Favored Enemy ability, but other than that, I don't see any major revisions that need to be made to the class itself. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Herkles
Seeker
82 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 16:57:28
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I like the idea of the Justice of Weald and Woe being elven archers designated to getting rid of the foes of the elves, and that there would be traditions that the EV teaches that isn't taught by say those in Everska. I can see a justice of weald and woe being a PrC that a follower of Shervash will use.
Anyways, I am going to try to come up with some lore on the Arcane archers, I have some ideas of my own, and I think I will post it here for criticisms.
another question though, what about Drow AAs? how different would they be. For mechanically, a drow can become an AA, as they are a subrace of elves so how would their traditions be? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 18:05:13
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| Dags, I'm bowing out of this argument. You're not seeing my point, and I'm tired of trying to convey it. This will be another of those "agree to disagree" things. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 18:26:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dags, I'm bowing out of this argument. You're not seeing my point, and I'm tired of trying to convey it. This will be another of those "agree to disagree" things.
-I understand your point, I just don't agree with it. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 10 Feb 2009 18:27:31 |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 15:49:25
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Seems to me that Dagnirion is stating how things are, simply enough. Wooly's looking past that to how things should be, in good game design and DMing. I'm not exactly sure what Dagnirion's opinion on how things should be, is, but I'm sure even you agree that it would be much better to introduce a general elven sniper class, and then give examples of how it can and does make an apperance in the Realms? "Elven Sniper: These legendary elven marksmen are right at home in the woods, patiently stalking their prey from the shadows. Many of such elves can be found in the ranks of Eldreth Veluuthra, known as Justices of Weald and Woe, while Evereska's borders are guarded by an elite squad of these marksmen known as the Graycloak Snipers." Or whatever. It even says in the Purple Dragon Knight's description that there's no point in including several similar PrCs, and therefore you should use the PrC as a base for other military orders. I think a smart DM understands this is the case with the Justice of Weald and Woe as well.
There's not really much to discuss about what Champions of Ruins says about the PrC. We can all read it in the book, stated plainly in black and white. As fans, players and DMs of the setting, though, it's pretty much our job to evaluate how well published material was designed, and whether it should be improved in our games. Surely you don't allow Eldreth Veluuthra have the only characters in the Realms who can cast divine magic without deities, either? Even if CoF says their druids cast spells from "nature". Not everything should be taken by the letter. And in that, I agree with Wooly. |
Edited by - IronAngel on 11 Feb 2009 15:52:08 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 16:25:41
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quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
Seems to me that Dagnirion is stating how things are, simply enough. Wooly's looking past that to how things should be, in good game design and DMing. I'm not exactly sure what Dagnirion's opinion on how things should be, is, but I'm sure even you agree that it would be much better to introduce a general elven sniper class, and then give examples of how it can and does make an apperance in the Realms? "Elven Sniper: These legendary elven marksmen are right at home in the woods, patiently stalking their prey from the shadows. Many of such elves can be found in the ranks of Eldreth Veluuthra, known as Justices of Weald and Woe, while Evereska's borders are guarded by an elite squad of these marksmen known as the Graycloak Snipers." Or whatever. It even says in the Purple Dragon Knight's description that there's no point in including several similar PrCs, and therefore you should use the PrC as a base for other military orders. I think a smart DM understands this is the case with the Justice of Weald and Woe as well.
-Right. That's not how things are presented, however. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 17:09:31
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Yes, we get that. But the information/entertainment value of repeating what a book says is pretty low. The question is: what do we care if a book presents it in a stupid way? (Especially since the book is wrong and conflicts with established Realmslore.) Do you not know better than the game designers how to run your own campaign? I sure know I do.
There's absolutely no reason to assume Champions of Ruin is correct, comprehensive or unbiased in its presentation, apart from "but the Scripture says so!" Source critisism is an essential part of literacy. We've all read the book, we don't need to be told what it says. Analyzing and interpreting its contents further is more fitting an esteemed forum such as this. This topic is particularly about lore an ideas for Arcane Archers, which is related to elven archery traditions in a wider sense. Discussing said traditions is more helpful to the Herks than dogmatically stating the obvious, in my opinion. |
Edited by - IronAngel on 11 Feb 2009 17:11:23 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 17:36:15
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-I do not have a campaign, and don't care about people's personal campaigns, and so on (unless I like them). I discuss canon Realmslore, pure and simple. This is the 'Sages of Realmslore' section, to discuss canon Realmslore.
-The prestige class in question is something that is specific for the Eldreth Veluuthra, in that only the Eldreth Veluuthra teaches individuals how to be Justices of Weald and Woe. The mechanics are general, and have no specific relations to the Eldreth Veluuthra, but the flavor text makes it quite clear. An "Evereskan Guardian Sniper" can exist, and can have the same exact stats as the Justice of Weald and Woe, but an Evereskan Guardian Sniper =/= Justice of Weald and Woe, just like an NYPD officer =/= an LAPD officer. An "Elven Sniper" PrC could exist, that acts as an all encompassing class, but, ultimately, it doesn't. Can you, personally, rename the Justice of Weald and Woe "Elven Sniper", and do with it what you want? Sure. Again, that is not how things are presented in the book, however. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 11 Feb 2009 17:38:07 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 18:12:48
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We are entering a 'grey' area here, wherein we are discussing canon material, and figuring out how else it can be used within the setting (which quantifies as 'Homebrew').
I would agree that they simply wanted an Elven Sniper Class, and placed it there in that book as 'filler', and by doing so, they needed to associate it with the Eldreth Veluthra.
Is it canon that it is, as far as we know, Eldreth Veluthra-specific? Yes... YES it is.
However, as I've pointed out above, in a meta-gaming way of thinking, I have to say it was a generic Eleven Sniper Class that they simply wittled-down to fit the concept of the book. Since they weren't planning an official Elves of Faerūn product, they shoe-horned the class in anywhere they could.
That is how it appears, and it makes sense to be able to use it elsewhere... but it isn't canon.
Edit: I just now went back through the thread, and realized that Woolly pretty-much said the same thing.
I would say that the Eldreth Veluthra teach it, and that now it is exclusive to them, but, at some time in the distant past, it was used by ALL Elves in general, and probably only became 'illegal' in recent years (and probably is something Elves are not all that proud of).
Then again, Calishite nobles used to have hunting parties hunt Elves for sport, so I suppose it's a two-way street. What would be interesting is to have a story about how one hunting party went hunting another, perhaps in one of those Realms of the Elves anthologies (if they ever do another). Could even be when the whole 'Weald & Woe' thing came about.
Perhaps, the Eldreth Veluthra grew out of that class, rather then the other way around? It does make sense...
I could see them being an elite group of 'sanctioned' Human-Hunters within Elven Forests, back a thousand years ago. A closed, secretive brotherhood that grows into its own power-base? Sounds more then feasable, like the historic Knights Templar. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2009 04:16:47 |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 18:12:59
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I'll resist the urge to make a Captain Obvious joke, and concede (though not quite agree) to disagree. The point is: we've all read the Prestige Class entry, we all know these things you've repeated in five posts now. "To recite" does not equal "to discuss". Discussion means that you consider your opponent's points, answer to them in some way and reform your thesis in a way that acknowledges the counter-arguments, even if your stance remains the same. You haven't even commented on the Justice being able to cast divine spells, while it's a staple of the Realms that you need divine support for that, and Eldreth Veluuthra have none. Not all canon is as valuable, being published in an official product doesn't eliminate the chance of human error and bad decisions. No one's suggested that NYPD=LAPD or that Justice of Weal and Woe`= Evereskan Guardian Sniper, either. People have discussed their opinions on the class, how it was introduced and what could've been done better with it. A cat is a cat is a cat is a cat. However, that says nothing as to whether a cat should be a cat. Hume's guillotine, anyone?
And I don't mean to offend you as a person, only to critisize your posts. There may be valuable inspiration to be had from discussing various options and opinions on canon Realms features. It's ridicilous to assume there's no value in discussing a topic if it isn't strictly canon. That kind of dogmatism kills creativity, the driving force of RP. |
Edited by - IronAngel on 11 Feb 2009 18:14:45 |
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Herkles
Seeker
82 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 18:17:29
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This is intersting, disscussion. I myself agree with wooly as the idea of using the justice makes sense for say the followers of Shervash who would instead of focusing on humans focus on drow.
another question though, what about Drow AAs? how different would they be. For mechanically, a drow can become an AA, as they are a subrace of elves so how would their traditions be? |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 18:30:04
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quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
You haven't even commented on the Justice being able to cast divine spells, while it's a staple of the Realms that you need divine support for that, and Eldreth Veluuthra have none.
-It's not relevant to any of the points I am making in the discussion, and tangential. If you want my opinion on the matter, they, like other members of the Eldreth Veluuthra, receive their spells from the unmentioned sources that the Eldreth Veluuthra as a whole is alluded to as drawing from, commonly speculated as Moander (Lolth) or Malar.
quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
No one's suggested that NYPD=LAPD or that Justice of Weal and Woe`= Evereskan Guardian Sniper, either. People have discussed their opinions on the class, how it was introduced and what could've been done better with it. A cat is a cat is a cat is a cat. However, that says nothing as to whether a cat should be a cat. Hume's guillotine, anyone?
-To say that the Justice of Weald and Woe can be or is a "general" Elven sniper-type class is to do this. The Justice of Weald and Woe is a specific prestige class directly tied to the Eldreth Veluuthra, without mechanical benefits that pertain to the organization. Guardians of secretive Elven enclaves cannot be Justices of Weald and Woe. They can be something else, something that draws word-for-word from the Justice of Weald and Woe prestige class, but they cannot be the prestige class itself. A cat is a cat is a cat is a cat, yes, but Whiskers the cat is not Mittens the cat is not Monty the cat is not Boots the cat.
quote:
Originally posted by Herkles
another question though, what about Drow AAs? how different would they be. For mechanically, a drow can become an AA, as they are a subrace of elves so how would their traditions be?
-I can't say that I've heard of any. Personally, if any exist in the little hidden niches of Realmslore, they probably wouldn't be too common, because of the fact that bows aren't exactly the best weapon to use in the Underdark. In theory, a handcrossbow variant of the Arcane Archer could be something that is practiced among the Drow. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 11 Feb 2009 18:32:13 |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 18:31:09
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I'm inclined to believe there are Drow AAs, despite their percieved preference for hand crossbows. Those small weapons aren't really compareable to bows, which serve a completely different role. So yeah, I think every well-equipped drow army would have a company of archers to use tactically, and many houses would have bows to equip their warriors with in case of siege. Combine this with the fact that drow Descended during what was pretty much the peak of elven culture and power. It's very likely that Arcane Archery had been invented at that time, that the Ilythiiri knew about it, and consequently, that they took the knowledge with them to the Underdark.
Like all things Drow, I'd say their tradition is a twisted, perverse version of the original art. It's probably a fairly unknown art, practiced only by a select few groups in a few cities, either in the warrior or mage schools. Alternately, it could be almost exclusive to one or two noble houses who still keep the tradition lively. One house in Menzoberranzan housed psionics, another was famed for its skilled cavalry, house Melarn taught the bae'qeshel bard/cleric tradition. Similarly, some house somewhere could be renowned for their deadly spellarchers.
Think spells that would be useful in tunnels. An elven AA is unlikely to imbue Fireball on her arrow when orcs are invading her home forest, for obvious reasons. I suppose that would apply for drow in small tunnels, as well, but imagine the benefit of waiting in an open cave for the enemy to push through a tunnel mouth, and blasting them all with a fireball arrow when they come through. Pick spells that seem useful in the Underdark, I guess. Web would be a given. Considering the safe range of bows, they could even go really underhanded and imbue their arrows with light-effect spells, being far enough to cover their eyes themselves.
EDIT: Dags, I suggest you read the topic again. Maybe I'm reading it differently, but the conclusions I draw are completely opposite. Saying that Justice of Weald and Woe should have been published as a general sniper class, or that it could "tweaked" (the exact word Wooly used) to work as such, or that it makes sense for other characters to use the Prestige Class as substitution for the nonexistant general sniper class(but not refer themselves to JoWaW IC, just like PDK is encouraged to be used as a substitute for general military officers), is not the same as saying "Justice of Weald and Woe = Elven Guardian Sniper". Besides, that wasn't the point I was making with the cat, but rather the irrelevance of "is" to "ought". Hume's guillotine, as I said. Do you have anything new to add, or are you just going to bring your point into the discussion over and over again? At this point, we know it, and it's time to take the discussion further from that basis. |
Edited by - IronAngel on 11 Feb 2009 18:38:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 20:11:37
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Oh no, we're just debating in a civilized, to-the-point European manner. This is what we're taught at school, you know. 
Seriously speaking, though, I don't mean to come off as rude or hostile. Critical and demanding, for sure, but I expect the same in return. All in good fun!
But yeah, we -are- getting a bit off-topic.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 04:26:51
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I was going to suggest the Handcrossbow variant that Dagnirion did, but he beat me to it.
Of course, then we couldn't call it an Arcane Archer, since they aren't using a normal bow.
I suggest an Arcane Crossbowmen...
Or maybe even an Arcane Hand-Crossbowmen... but thats a mouthful.
Of course, it could also be an Arcane Zen Handcrossbowmen of Weald & Woe Underdark Defender. 
But now I'm just being silly.
So... no-one liked my idea that the PrC actually came first, and the Eldreth Veluuthra grew out of that?
I kinda like the idea of an ancient, secretive order of Elves that hunt humans, but then again... I think rather poorly of Elves anyway.
Which race/PrC allows Rangers to take 'Human' as a favored race? I know I read that just recently somewhere.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Mar 2009 17:47:24 |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 21:55:54
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Any Ranger can take Humans as a favored enemy in 3.5. In 3.0 you couldn't take your race as a FE unless you were evil which I always thought was a silly restriction.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was going to suggest the Handcrossbow variant that Dagnirion did, but he beat me to it.
Of course, then we couldn't call it an Arcane Archer, since they aren't using a normal bow.
I suggest an Arcane Crossbowmen...
Or maybe even an Arcane Hand-Crossbowmen... but thats a mouthful.
Of course, it could also be an Arcane Zen Handcrossbowmen of Wealf & Woe Underdark Defender.
But now I'm just being silly.
So... no-one like my idea that the PrC actually came first, and the Eldreth Veluuthra grew out of that?
I kinda like the idea of an ancient, secretive order of Elves that hunt humans, but then again... I think rather poorly of Elves anyway.
Which race/PrC allows Rangers to take 'Human' as a favored race? I know I read that just recently somewhere.
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"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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Arcane Archery
